WCSox

QUOTE (soxfan3530 @ May 19, 2008 -> 12:31 PM) i grew up in Park Forest Me too. Haven't been back there for a while, but there are lots of Sox fans in the Tinley/Frankfort/Orland Park area where much of my family currently lives. In Oregon, hackey sack and meth are a lot more popular than baseball. You'll be hard-pressed to find a decent sports bar in my neck of the woods, much less Sox fans.

QUOTE (rangercal @ May 15, 2008 -> 04:46 PM) I agree with the Baldelli example. I don't think anyone is comparing Q,Maggs or Clee to Ramirez. Ramirez, received 70 mil over 6 years. That's not even close to what Q would get now or Lee and Ordonez back then. It's easy to use Maggs and C-Lee as examples, because you have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. But what if Quentin signs a six-year deal for $40 million and he morphs into another Rocco Baldelli? I'm not really a big fan of signing good-but-not-great players to long-term deals after two full years of ML service. Most of those players aren't productive in the bigs until their mid-20's, meaning that they'd be on the down-slope of their careers towards the end of those deals. If I were a GM, I'd rather have that player under team control for four more years (including one year of pre-arbitration salary) and then let somebody else over-pay for them when they hit the FA market. On the other hand, if it's an exceptional talent (like Hanley Ramirez), it might be time to roll the dice. Because that guy will be a difference-maker on your roster for a longer period of time and will rake in tons of cash for your organization if he's even remotely marketable.

QUOTE (rangercal @ May 15, 2008 -> 04:00 PM) You see the topic is about extending a player 1 or 2 seasons after a players' major league debut. In comparison to similar deals given out the last couple months, Maggs would have received an 8 year extension somewhere between 2000-01 and Lee 2001-02. Hypothetically speaking of course, how much of a bargain would it have been to have them each on the payroll at about 5-6 mil per year until 2010? How much of a bargain would it have been if the Rays had given Rocco Baldelli a $30 million deal in his second year? I like what the Marlins did with Hanley Ramirez, given that he's essentially a hybrid of A-Rod and Ricky Henderson and has serious HOF potential (and was one HR short of a 30/50 season last year). But I didn't see the same level of talent in Maggs or Carlos Lee back then - or Carlos Quentin now. What the Rays did with Evan Longoria reeks of desperation.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 15, 2008 -> 12:01 PM) And just in terms of contract issues, like why I opened this thread...the market right now is pretty darn different from what it was 8 years ago, and so one should certainly take that in to account when managing the money. We saw a couple solid examples of what happens with players who you don't lock up early with Mags and CLee. One walked out of here for nothing after burning every bridge possible, one was traded for well below his value in order to clear salary space and then signed somewhere else for 6/$100. I'm not sure that Kenny would've wanted Maggs and El Caballo on the down-sides of their careers, so those situations may not be applicable. The business model that TB is using with guys like Longoria is interesting, but I'm not sure that it fits with the way that Kenny and the Sox's ownership group does business. It's a really good model for a cash-strapped organization that has no shot in hell of competing on the FA market, but it's also incredibly risky. I'm not sure that JR, Einhorn, and Co. want to take that kind of a risk on an unproven player, especially when they still have the financial clout to sign free agents or acquire top talent through deals. If the Sox are blessed with another Frank Thomas in their farm system sometime in the future, then maybe. But I think it would literally take that kind of talent for them to throw $40 million at an unproven player. I don't think that CQ falls into that category. And I think that the Sox would probably wait a season or two to see if the player in question is the real deal or a flash in the pan.

QUOTE (flavum @ May 15, 2008 -> 10:57 AM) Too soon to sign Quentin long-term. The shoulder injury is a concern still, so I think they'll wait until at least the middle of 2009. Agreed. They would be nuts to sign a guy to a $40+ million deal based on six weeks of baseball. Especially somebody with his injury history. Also agreed that the middle of next year is when I'd consider it.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 15, 2008 -> 06:58 AM) Maggs was a FA signing out of Venezuela right? I thought that some other ML team had signed him, but cut him in their minor-league system. Maybe I'm wrong about that. Whatever the case, it was the best thing that Schueler ever did.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ May 15, 2008 -> 07:22 AM) I listened to the game on XM radio and since it was in LA it was the Angel broadcasters. They were really praising Contreras saying they had never seen a pitcher able to control the split finger and locate it like Jose. They apparently missed all of the 56-foot forkballs that he threw three feet to the left of AJ. Seriously though, you've got to love Jose turning it around this year. This dude's arm has taken an absolute beating over the years and he keeps on like the Energizer Bunny. As for CQ, what else can you say about this guy? He might end up as big as steal as Schueler grabbing Maggs off of waivers back in the mid '90s.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ May 14, 2008 -> 02:37 PM) I will also say that he is a very good value for a team looking for slugging. I don't anticipate him finishing the year with this bad of an average. I think he'll hit .240-.260 with 35hr's and quite a few RBI's and a near .400 OBP. Those are not numbers that I find acceptable but on a team that really lacks power he could be the perfect fit (note, I don't believe the Chicago White Sox is that team). Also, Kalapse brings up a key point. As much as I banter to move Thome, it is all a moot point unless he is willing to accept a deal and I've yet to see the papers even speculate or ask anyone internally whether they believe he would. I assume this is because the media figures Kenny will not move Thome/Konerko because Ozzie/Kenny both really like the two of them. If the Sox are out of it at the end of July, Thome could probably be convinced to approve a trade to a contender. I'm sure that he and his wife like Chicago and he probably enjoys being near his father in Peoria, but I think that he wants a ring more than anything else at this point in his career. And his window of opportunity is closing fast.

QUOTE (kyyle23 @ May 14, 2008 -> 07:34 AM) Im just not seeing a big enough dip in Marks velocity to name it as the culprit here. He has been consistently 85-88, he just is leaving pitches over the plate when he has his big innings, and he is getting hammered. Even hawk is calling out the hangers "Just a rolling curveball over the heart of the plate". Maybe he is experiencing arm pain and he is changing his arm angle to compensate, and thus giving up control, i dont know. But he is definitely having some issues. The wierd thing is he cruises then has a big, devastating inning, mostly after a bad error. So you can almost point to a concentration issue as well OK, I can mostly agree with that. Mark consistently hit 88-91 a few years ago, but I agree that his fastball isn't as weak as it was two years ago. If he IS experiencing arm fatigue or discomfort, I hope that they shut him down right away.

QUOTE (kyyle23 @ May 14, 2008 -> 08:08 AM) Exactly, location, not velocity. When Buehrle is on, he is getting weak groundouts off the handle, not blowing people away I wouldn't completely take velocity out of the equation. If Mark lacks it and he doesn't have Maddux-like command that day, he's going to be far from dominant. He got hammered throughout most of 2006 and it wasn't because his command was terrible. That said, I agree that location is the most important factor. Not only in Mark's case, but for pitchers in general.

QUOTE (kyyle23 @ May 14, 2008 -> 04:41 AM) Jamie Moyer hasnt had the same velocity as Buehrle since the early 90's Moyer has been at 85 or below for a long time Its location, not velocity for both Moyer and Buehrle. People like Moyer and Maddux have been successful with mid-'80s fastballs because of their extraordinary command of several pitches, as well as their movement and ability to change speeds. However, pitchers with these skill sets are in a very small minority. There's a reason that, outside of a handfull of knuckleballers, there haven't been very many highly-successful pitchers with batting-practice fastballs. I really hope that Mark is able to consistently hit the upper 80's sometime this summer. Because he doesn't have Maddux-like command of his four pitches.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 13, 2008 -> 03:50 PM) I disagree with that. I think back when he struggled in 06, the fact that his fastball seemed a little slow was certainly a part of it. Just as it's part of Zito's struggles this year. Velocity isn't everything, but a fastball that tops out at 90-91 is a lot more forgiving than one that tops out at 85-86. This is especially so if one's changeup doesn't decrease proportionally.

That is surprising, after the way that the current ownership treated him during the '93 playoffs and after he want into the Hall wearing a BoSox cap. I'm glad to hear that they've mended fences and that he's still a part of the organization. He's one of my all-time faves.

QUOTE (joesaiditstrue @ May 13, 2008 -> 01:31 PM) if not scoscia, gardenhire would be a good pick also Agreed. His guys have been competitive for years, which especially impressive considering their budget.

QUOTE (The Ginger Kid @ May 13, 2008 -> 11:19 AM) he also said Soscia was the best manager he's ever played for, not that it bothers me. Scioscia is probably the best manager in the game.

QUOTE (Al Lopez's Ghost @ May 13, 2008 -> 09:02 AM) It's not really news anymore when Buehrle is hit around - it's news when he's effective. He was 12-13 in 2006 for a team that was 18 games over .500. ... after pitching a ton of extra innings in the 2005 playoffs. ... with a 3.63 ERA and a 1.26 WHIP. I completely disagree. Given the bounce-back season he had in '07, given how consistently good he's been in the past, and given that it only took $56 million to sign him, I'd say that it was a pretty low-risk decision and arguably a no-brainer.

QUOTE (Controlled Chaos @ May 13, 2008 -> 06:27 AM) Guerrero's at-bat might not have mattered if not for two infield hits to start the rally. Sean Rodriguez reached on a grounder that took a bad hop off shortstop Orlando Cabrera, and Gary Matthews Jr. was credited with a hit when second baseman Juan Uribe couldn't handle his grounder behind second. Uribe didn't serve up the meatball to Vlad with two runners on. As bad as Juan was defensively last night, I wouldn't chalk Mark's performance up to "bad luck." He's been getting hit pretty hard all year, and last night was no exception. Mark's velocity is a problem again, just like it was in '06. If he can hit 88-90 consistently, he's in good shape. If he's throwing 85-87, there isn't enough of a difference between his fastball and his change to keep hitters off balance. And if his command is off with a mid-80's fastball, he's going to get hit hard.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ May 12, 2008 -> 01:40 PM)

QUOTE (gosox41 @ May 12, 2008 -> 11:30 AM) I won't be satisifed with that. Not with the Twins playing well and the Indians heating up. This team needs to at least split with the Angels(aren't we not facing their 2 hottest pitchers though I know we get Lackey). From there they better be able to take 2 of 3 from San Fran. Series againt piss poor teams like that need to be won (or swept). While we might be in decent shape, a 6-4, 7-4 road trip would be much better. If this team wants to contend then they need to show up against the Angels. Agreed that they'd better take 2/3 from the Giants, but sweeping a team isn't easy, especially on the road. And with the way that the Angels are playing, going 2/4 against them in LA is about what I'd consider to be respectable. So, yeah, I agree that 6-4 is about where I'd like them as well. 7-4 would be about as good as one could reasonably expect.

QUOTE (YASNY @ May 12, 2008 -> 12:25 PM) That being said, I was wondering if there was someway we could Clement from the M's, as sooner or later we are going need a replacement for AJ. I wouldn't mind getting Olivo back, just for his arm. Too bad he's on an in-division non-contender.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ May 12, 2008 -> 11:17 AM) You don't trade a slugger like Jim Thome for a back up catcher. You're right. You trade Thome to dump his salary and to allow Dye to move to DH. The back-up catcher is icing on the cake.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ May 12, 2008 -> 08:20 AM) Just want to say it again, but I would trade Thome straight up for a solid young infielder or outfielder. We don't need any more outfielders. Not sure that I feel as strongly as you, but I'd like to see either Thome or Dye dealt this winter as well. Both are past their primes, Thome can't do anything other than DH, and Dye can barely play RF. The Sox need to move one of these dinosaurs before Opening Day of next year.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ May 12, 2008 -> 04:55 AM) Agreed, at least we won 2/3. Even against a mediocre team like Seattle, winning 2/3 on the road isn't bad at all. I imagine that we'll do at least as well in SF. Even if we "only" go 5-5 on this West Coast stretch, we'll still be in decent shape.

QUOTE (daa84 @ May 11, 2008 -> 01:24 PM) these mariners announcers are horrendously boring...they make skip caray sound entertaining They're worse than Skip and Chip combined. The color guy is probably the worst in MLB.

Robin Ventura filling in for Stoney today. Always loved the guy, but not sure what I think of him in the booth.