WCSox

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Aug 29, 2007 -> 05:10 PM) Standard practice. Not if you suspect that a player is injured. If there's ANY doubt, you demand it as part of the trade. If KW refused, you politely decline.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Aug 29, 2007 -> 05:06 PM) Most trades don't involve a physical, if I recall correctly, beyond the one that they take at the beginning of the year. Gillick was an idiot for not asking for one on Freddy, given that WE all strongly suspected that something was wrong with him. That cost his franchise $10 million and a decent prospect in Gio.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Aug 29, 2007 -> 04:56 PM) If it was KW who shipped Gio and Gavin Floyd out somewhere to acquire Freddy Garcia, and what happened still happened, the KW fans would say Garcia throws 200 innings and wins 15 games every year, how could KW have foreseen what happened? They would have said getting rid of Floyd was no loss (I agree) and shipping a AA pitcher like Gio was a good gamble on a guy with Garcia's track record. Of course since KW is on the other side of the trade he is a genius as well. When a pitcher who has several 200+ inning seasons on his arm hits 31 and fastball drops 6-7 mph in one season, it's pretty obvious that he's declining. That was obvious to everyone last year, except apparently Pat Gillick. The Garcia deal wasn't so much about Kenny being some sort of genius, but Gillick being a fool.

QUOTE(knightni @ Aug 29, 2007 -> 01:02 AM) Randy McKay's his name. http://www.pokerpages.com/players/profiles...randy-mckay.htm He's from Chicago and recently gave away numerous White Sox/Bulls prizes for St. Vincent dePaul on their website. http://www.svdpc.org/fleur_de_lis_ball/indexbook.html He must be a minority owner to have gotten a ring. You don't necessarily need to be a minority owner to have a ring or the pendant equivalent that they had made.

QUOTE(Soxbadger @ Aug 29, 2007 -> 04:41 PM) The biggest thing you can call the Sox org on is drafting. They consistently blow first round picks. They do well in the later rounds, but they really have not drafted a stud in the top rounds for a long time (I mean guys like Thomas and Ventura are huge to draft). It's a lot easier to land studs like Frank, Robin, and Blackjack when you've sucked for several years on end ('86-'89) and are in the position to draft a few "can't-miss" prospects. The "problem" with the Sox is that they haven't had any of those 70-75-win years for a long time. If we had sucked like the Tigers and Twins have in the recent past, we may have had the opportunity to draft guys like Verlander and Mauer.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Aug 29, 2007 -> 04:35 PM) Yah. Disagreement. Agreed with 29th that's it's silly to continue arguing.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Aug 29, 2007 -> 04:16 PM) KW built this piece of crap with a hundred million payroll, so money isn't everything. Kenny built a championship team (a dominant one that won 99 games and went 11-1 in the playoffs) with a $70 million payroll (about $40 million less than what Minaya had to work with last year) via a series of smart, relatively low-cost trades (Garcia, Contreras, etc.) and FA signings (JD, Jenks, Tad, AJ, etc.). But that was AFTER he had to shed payroll by parting ways with a large portion of his offense (Maggs, Carlos). Minaya didn't have those financial constraints. I'm in no way arguing that KW is a great GM or even a good one, but arguing that Minaya is BETTER than him (given the evidence, rather than personal prejudice) is just silly.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Aug 29, 2007 -> 04:12 PM) You've got some nerve considering your entire basis is "KW has a ring" and "KW doesn't play for the players -- but he's responsible for their one playoff success and Beane is responsible for their failure!" and all that. Nice strawman argument, but that's not what I said. Yep, with a blank check to sign as many free agents as he needed and the young talent that was drafted/developed by his predecessors. Minaya hasn't done anything that the average person on Soxtalk couldn't have done.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Aug 29, 2007 -> 04:07 PM) I'm not begrudging you the right to criticize my point. I'm just saying, I'm not going to debate it with you. Of course you won't, because there's no rational defense for your point. But that hasn't stopped you from going on and on and on about it for the past few pages.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Aug 29, 2007 -> 04:01 PM) I said, "These are the guys who I think are better than KW." I didn't say, "I'm going to prove how and why each and every one of them are better than Kenny Williams just for WCSox... Yes, and when one presents an idea on a message board, the idea is discussed and sometimes criticized. That's the entire freaking point.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Aug 29, 2007 -> 03:55 PM) And no, I wasn't trying to convince myself of anything. I was simply listing GMs better than KW, and you said, "WHY IS HE BETTTER" and I said, "I'm going to decline to get into a debate with you about it" because... When people post ideas on a message board, they're typically arguing points. Forgive me for confusing that with you thinking out loud.

QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Aug 29, 2007 -> 03:53 PM) Come on guys let's keep this on baseball, no one wants this to get personal. Funny how the personal attacks seem to originate from the same place...

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Aug 27, 2007 -> 06:40 PM) Why would you blame the players? It is obviously the coaches, manager's, and GM's fault.

QUOTE(peckerhead johnson @ Aug 29, 2007 -> 01:12 PM) Where did Greg contradict himself? He merely stated that he wasn't trying to convince you of anything. Why are you putting words into his mouth? You're right. He included that material to convince himself, rather than the people who read his post. Are you Greg's lover or something?

QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Aug 29, 2007 -> 01:19 PM) Yes, the aggressiveness is a big plus to me too. As a side note, aggressiveness tends to play well in Chicago. Again, big picture stuff, if your GM is going to be aggressive you had best have very good pro scouting. Not certain the White Sox have always had great pro scouting. They need to do better with this because the White Sox are an organization that uses a specific methodology for sourcing talent vs. going out and buying big ticket FA's. That methodology is what we saw in the Danny Richar trade. They identify guys who are blocked or undervalued on other teams systems and try to plug them in. They did that with Willie Harris to mixed results although it was clear WH had some real talent. This last winter they moved Dave Wilder over to pro scouting, which is one of Wilder's strengths. Wilder was in on the Richar trade so it will be interesting to see how Richar works out. Glad to hear that Wilder's strength is scouting, because it doesn't appear to be Kenny's. But I'm optimistic that combining Wilder's strength with Kenny's strength (aggressiveness, trade/contract negotiations) might work out. I don't know if the KW regime will be successful down the road but, unlike some other people here, I'm willing to give them a few more years to get this team back on track. It's not like they haven't gotten it done before.

QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Aug 29, 2007 -> 12:58 PM) I was trying to decide which part of your excellent post to quote and decided on this part. While I'm not certain Beane is happy with 2nd place, I completely agree with the two main points you bring out. I too want a guy who shoots for everything and goes for the gold. I liked Kenny's aggressiveness right off the bat (Wells/Sirotka). I don't agree with all of his moves, either, but it was a welcome departure from the Ron Schueler our-prospects-will-pan-out-eventually philosophy.

QUOTE(Soxbadger @ Aug 29, 2007 -> 12:41 PM) But ya know what, I dont mind, I dont mind watching young guys, I dont mind some times having to take the lumps. Because I have confidence that a guy like KW is suffering right now. He isnt sitting around smiling writing a book like Billy Beane telling the world how great he is.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Aug 29, 2007 -> 10:04 AM) What about Gillick? "Oh, he been in the game so long, oh, but he's not good. You saying that Gillick is "better" than Kenny Williams is like saying that Tony LaRussa is a better manager than Ozzie. How long did it take Gillick and LaRussa to encounter any significant success? And what has Gillick done over the past 10 years, besides fail to get the Phillies to the playoffs and ruin Seattle's farm system? It might be more accurate to say that KW has not achieved the success that Gillick did in Toronto 15 or so years ago. And it would be equally-accurate to say that Gillick has not achieved the success that Kenny has in this century. Since you obviously don't remember, this is what you said... QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 05:46 PM) But I can think of ten thirteen [edited for accuracy] GMs who are, in my view, better than KW: Jocketty Towers Gillick Minaya Beinfest Beane Ryan Cashman Moore Stoneman Epstein Shapiro Schuerholz I'd take any of these guys over KW, WS ring or not. So, Minaya isn't a better GM than Kenny, but he's on your list of "better GMs than Kenny." Thanks for clearing that up. Minaya has accomplished crap, even when being allowed to spend like a madman on the FA market. So I don't know what you're basing your argument on, other than a blatant dislike for KW. You're right, I can't match your "Omar Minaya logic."

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 06:08 PM) I love how you go on about the ring but ignore Gillick's, too. I love you how compare the track record of a guy who's been in the business about 20 years longer than KW to what KW has done in his first 6+ years as a GM. And I love how you're trying to convince me that Omar Minaya's a better GM than Kenny because he's done... um... pretty much nothing with either the Expos or Mets. And that's pretty sad, because I think that Kenny's maybe an above-average GM at best. Outside of your unhealthy fascination with Schuerholz, I don't really understand why you really care where KW ranks among baseball's other GMs. The goal is to win in October, not to have the strongest farm system or even to win 90+ games every year and go one-and-out in the playoffs. I don't think that any Sox fan with more than two functioning brain cells would trade what Kenny did for their team for what, say, Larry Himes did.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 05:46 PM) I know someone just like that. I should say: I don't necessarily hold KW to Schuerholz. Nobody should be judged against John Schuerholz unequivocally. But I can think of ten GMs who are, in my view, better than KW: Jocketty Towers Gillick Minaya Beinfest Beane Ryan Cashman Moore Stoneman Epstein Shapiro Schuerholz I'd take any of these guys over KW, WS ring or not. What makes Omar Minaya a good GM? The fact that he took over a franchise with some good young players and was allowed to spend all that he wanted in free agency? Or perhaps over-paying for a declining and injury-prone Pedro? And Pat Gillick... the guy who paid $10 million for Freddy Garcia last winter and has yet to do anything in the post-season with a talented Phillies team? LOL! I'll take KW and the ring over Minaya, Gillick, Beane, and Shapiro. The latter two are probably better GMs than Kenny, but I care about championships. Does Billy Beane have a trophy case for all of his Sabermetrics Championships?

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 03:15 PM) Oh, so that's why Shapiro undeservingly gets more credit. I'd say the Indians were in a hell of a lot better shape before Shapiro than the White Sox before KW. At least they were financially. They had 455 consecutive sellouts from '95-'01, right when Shapiro took over.

QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 02:37 PM) For comparison, how about Shapiro in Cleveland. Everyone raves about their talent, and I like their team. He's been there for 6 years as GM and in their organization since 1992. From 2001 to 2006 they won one division (2001) and were over .500 one other year (2005). They had a great 2005 as we all know and then completely tanked last year. They're a good team this year and lead the division but I wouldn't classify them as dominant by any means. Ownership stuck with both Shapiro and their manager after last year's debacle and now they lead the division. And we can go back into the '90s and rave about what an awesome farm system John Hart put together and how it produced a lumber company of a lineup (including a couple of future HOFers), division titles for years on end, and two pennants... but no championships. Ask Indians fans if they'll trade all of that for the ring that we won two years ago.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 02:06 PM) Well then what's a better GM, one that had one lightning in a bottle year and a ring, and the rest of the time misses the playoffs every year, or one with a solid farm system and who is in the playoffs on a very regular basis? As a fan, the bottom line is what matters. A "solid farm system" (like the one that we had in the late '80s) doesn't really mean crap if those players can't win a playoff series. And which organization, besides the Yankees and the Braves back in the '90s, has "constant trips to October"? Or are you speaking of your XBox franchise mode team?

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 12:57 PM) I don't know that the Sox have been so successful under KW. He did win , I'll give him that, but for the majority of the time he's been the GM the division has been weak. KC and Det. were absolutely atrocious, Cleveland rebuilt. Minnesota has turned over their roster. In the six years he didn't win a championship or division or wild card, KW's teams are a combined 9 games over .500. Considering the unbalanced schedule, its not so impressive, at least to the degree where you can say without a doubt that KW is the smartest GM around. I realize that you hate Kenny Williams with a passion, but I don't believe that I - or anybody else here - has claimed that Kenny is "without a doubt the smartest GM around."

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 12:38 PM) I'd be willing to bet that those who want Ozzie and Kenny fired are likely to be the younger posters, and those willing to be more patient are the older ones. I guess I'm just old. The 2000-present period has been better than any stretch in my lifetime, and for that matter, in the past century for the White Sox. That doesn't mean I like losing - it means I am not about to endorse firing people who have proven so successful, based on one lousy season. Well-said