WCSox

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Oct 19, 2007 -> 03:37 PM) Alex Rodriguez isn't a liability in any lineup. Has he been bad since Game Four of the 2004 ALCS? Yeah. But Alex Rodriguez in your lineup is never a liability. A-Rod in 2005 playoffs: .133 BA A-Rod in 2006 playoffs: .071 BA I would say that those performances in the three-hole constitute a "liability."

QUOTE(Rex Kicka** @ Oct 19, 2007 -> 03:27 PM) Look, A-Rod was the difference between a Yankees team in the playoffs and a Yankees team that didn't make the playoffs. That is true. And he was also a massive liability for them IN the playoffs in '05 and '06. I agree with that. Too bad it won't happen.

QUOTE(kyyle23 @ Oct 19, 2007 -> 03:09 PM) Not in the same sentence, neighborhood, state, or planet. Not even close. True, the only things that those scenarios have in common are that both players are hired guns who have failed to achieve anything of note in the post-season and that the hype over 600 HRs has been replaced with rampant skepticism due to the steroids scandal. I just don't understand the man-love for A-Rod. Why give a guy $300 million over the latter half of his career, with the hope that he'll put more butts in the seats, garner better TV and radio deals and that, if the Sox are really lucky, they might be able to cash in on A-rod breaking Bonds' HR record in 2017. That doesn't sound like a plan to win another championship, which is what Sox fans REALLY care about.

QUOTE(Rex Kicka** @ Oct 19, 2007 -> 02:00 PM) You don't think it won't be a huge deal in 2009 when A-Rod starts chasing 600? or in 2012 when he chases 714? Did Sammy Sosa make the Rangers a ton of money when he hit #600? As for 2012, A-Rod will be 37 at that point. If he's not on the juice, what's to stop him from a Thome-like injury-induced decline? How many power-hitters can even pull off a full season at that age? Are Thome or Frank worth $30 million/year at this point? QUOTE(michelangelosmonkey @ Oct 19, 2007 -> 02:08 PM) It didn't happen with Albert Belle because he came across as SUCH a jerk. Then he got hurt and they soon cut bait on him. Wrong order. They cut bait with him after he had arguably the best season ever for a Sox hitter. He got hurt later in Baltimore. A-Rod couldn't keep the Rangers competitive in his prime. How is he supposed to do that for the Sox as he enters the downside of his career? The Sox will attract more fans with a team that WINS... period. A-Rod is going to hawg a massive amount of the payroll and may actually PREVENT the Sox from winning. What happens four years from now when Buehrle is gone and the Sox need another top-of-the-rotation starer, but have no ace in their system, and A-Rod's salary is preventing the Sox from signing free agent Josh Beckett? Payroll flexibility is huge. What would've happened to the Sox if they had signed A-Rod back in 2004 and didn't have the extra money to sign Garcia and Contreras?

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Oct 19, 2007 -> 01:15 PM) Jordan's personality has been somewhat "contrived". As much of a winner as he was, he wasn't his first 6 years in the NBA, but still was the biggest draw in Chicago and around the league. ARod in Chicago would be huge, but the Sox pretty much will draw 2 million + now for an average team. I can't see where ARod will mean every game is sold out, but his signing would mean a significant increase. Jordan began playing in the NBA at the height of its popularity and at a time when the Bulls couldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as "championship." MJ was also massively more marketable than A-Rod, even before the championships. How many A-Rod commercials do you see on TV these days? Geez, Peyton Manning has had endorsement deals out the wazoo for years now, even before he finally won something of consequence. A-Rod may appeal strongly to a small segment of people, but he's far from universally-beloved by the masses in the way that MJ was. He was never big on the national scale while he was with the Rangers and New Yorkers never warmed up to him either. He's perceived as money-hungry, contrived, and a choke in the big games. A-Rod wouldn't even be as popular as Frank. Agreed that the Sox would probably draw 2 million + without a competitive team with A-Rod there, but that's not saying much. They're not going to draw less than 1.7-1.8 million for at least the next few years, with or without him.

QUOTE(michelangelosmonkey @ Oct 19, 2007 -> 12:44 PM) I think people forget that just a little over 10 years ago Reinsdorf...after complaining loudly for years about baseball salaries...made Albert Belle the highest paid player in baseball. People's jaws dropped at the time. But we need to remember that Reinsdorf is a smart businessman. The quest for Arod would be in an attempt to win the city of Chicago. This is a battle fought over decades...last off season the Cubs spent $300 million to get themselves a 3 and out in the playoffs...and who would bet on them for next year. If Reinsdorf spends $300 million on Arod and Rowand...trades Garland for prospects?? The city would be ABUZZ. When the Cubs get sold...WGN comes with hat and wallet in hand to pay for Sox TV. Young suburban baseball fans start wearing AROD jersies. It's really a great plan. To win Chicago it could be argued that Arod is more valuable to the Sox than any team in baseball. Reinsdorf is intelligent enough to know that signing a marquee player won't "win over" Chicago baseball fans. It didn't happen with Albert Belle, who appeared to be headed to the HOF back when the Sox signed him. The only way to "win over" fans from the Cubs, and the only way for the Cubs to increase their fan base, is to WIN. And since the Cubs can't win, and the Sox have very recently, it's not like the Sox have their back against the wall in terms of fan support. The only way that JR and his board would ever sign A-Rod would be if A-Rod/Boras agreed to several "out" clauses in the contract (salary ranking, diminished skills, etc.) so that he could dump the remaining $200+ million on some other owner if the A-Rod experiment went awry. And since dedicating 1/3 of one's payroll to one player doesn't work in baseball, I seriously doubt that A-Rod would be in Chicago for more than a few years. And, most importantly, paying A-Rod an obscene amount of money wouldn't help the Sox win. And I really think that the number of A-Rod jerseys being sold is somewhat exaggerated. While A-Rod may be a "star", he's not exactly embraced by fans in the same way that Jordan was. A-Rod is basically seen as a great regular-season player who doesn't get it done in the playoffs and who has a somewhat contrived personality. He's not perceived as a winner and he's not going to be the Derek Jeter of Chicago.

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Oct 19, 2007 -> 11:17 AM) The problem with that from a business standpoint, is that you aren't getting the meat of the return on investment within 3 years. The most money that Arod will produce for your team will come in years 5+ when he's approaching multiple records. From a pure baseball production standpoint, a 3 year deal makes the most sense, but to JR that's probably not the case. It has probably crossed JR's mind that he brought the greatest basketball player to ever live to Chicago, and now he has the chance to bring in and keep probably the greatest baseball player to ever live to Chicago. Reinsdorf would be a god in this city. Whether it all makes sense to us is a different story, but there are issues past the bottom line on a signing like this one. I'm definitely not saying it will happen, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. Agreed that they might not get so much on their $90 million investment over just three years. Good point. But I completely disagree with your comparison of A-Rod to Jordan. MJ was a god because he WON CHAMPIONSHIPS. A-Rod has a very average .279 playoff batting average and has been average-to-awful under playoff pressure recently, has significantly less impact on each game in his sport than MJ had, and his $30 million/year contract would severely cripple the Sox's ability to go after other difference-making free agents that they would need to get them over the top (e.g., Contreras, Garcia, etc.). Basketball teams are small and you can get away with spending ridiculously on one marquee player. As A-Rod has shown, it doesn't work that way in baseball... there are 24 other roster spots to fill. Plus, A-Rod is already 32 and probably won't be hitting 50+ HRs halfway into that 10-year/$300 million deal. You don't give a blockbuster deal like that (or even a $200 million deal) to a player on the wrong side of 30.

This article is a massive heap of dung. While I don't doubt that Kenny has talked to Boras about A-Rod, there's pretty much zero chance that JR is going to fork over the $200+ million in guaranteed money that A-Rod is going to command. LOL at the $1.5 BILLION that A-Rod will supposedly bring into the organization via ticket and merchandise sales and his penchant for biting it in the playoffs. How much profit did the Sox make off of Albert Belle? Probably not much, as they were happy to let him walk via an escape clause after two years of sagging attendance (even after he set the franchise records for HRs and 2Bs in '98). Also LOL at JR supposedly wanting a marquee player to stick it to the Cubs... as if winning a ring two years ago and watching the sCrUBS get swept by the Diamondbacks isn't enough. I'd be fine with the Sox paying A-Rod $30 million/year IF it's only a three-year-deal. And we all know that isn't going to happen. I don't think that he'll get $300 million in guaranteed money, but I'm sure that he won't settle for less than $150 million.

I can't say enough great things about the old ballpark. :sniff:

QUOTE(klaus kinski @ Oct 15, 2007 -> 09:33 AM) I was banned "for one week" by someone playing God and never went back. Still cant figure out why-but it was for the best-just way too many "chiefs" there with assumed authority. I don't understand why they even allow new users if they only want their like-minded buddies to post there. Why not just password-protect the message board in that case? George created a really nice site and it's too bad that he let it go in that direction.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Oct 12, 2007 -> 10:23 AM) Rowand at 14x6 = bad (and never going to happen anyway) Rowand at 10x4, though, is worth serious consideration. Yep. And a Boras-represented declining Andruw Jones isn't even worth thinking about.

That sucks. The Southtown was probably my favorite Chicago paper. I loved their old slogan: "People up north just don't get it"

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Oct 10, 2007 -> 09:28 AM) If the Sox could somehow bring in Rivera on a 3 year deal (incredibly unlikely, I know) I'd be in favor of turning around and dealing away Jenks for a package centered around 2-3 top prospects. It would never happen but IMO it would be a great move. Agreed that it probably wouldn't work (Rivera will probably want too much $), but it's a good idea. Assuming that the window of opportunity closes after '08, I'd be in favor of holding onto Jenks for one more year as the setup guy. If the Sox are out of contention by late July, he can be dealt then (or next winter, if they do manage to compete).

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Oct 9, 2007 -> 04:17 PM) While we're on the subject: Chone Figgins, current contract: 3 years, $10.5 million (2006-2008) * 2006: $2.25 million * 2007: $3.5 million * 2008: $4.75 million * Eligible for free agency following 2009 season That's great value for a legitimate leadoff hitter who can steal bases and can play anywhere in the OF or 3B. I'd much rather have Figgins' versatility for less money than over-paying for Rowand or a soon-to-be-declining Torii Hunter. I wouldn't want to give up Konerko, but I'd offer Contreras at a 50% discount plus a mid-level prospect or two.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Oct 9, 2007 -> 04:33 PM) Then why not use Jerry Owens who is cheaper, younger and already here? He was almost at that OBP from his callup. The big knock about him on this board was his ability to SLG and get extra base hits. I'd like to have both. If Kenny could eat some of Contreras' salary and unload him for Figgins, I'd be ecstatic. Figgins could play CF next year with Owens as a fourth OF. When Crede's gone in '08, move Fields back to 3B, shift Figgins to LF, and stick Owens in CF.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Oct 9, 2007 -> 03:45 PM) I love him too, but he was not very good down the stretch and I'm a bit concerned about him slowing down drastically due to being drastically overworked for the past couple seasons. That said, if he's healthy he's a stud reliever. I would've loved to have Shields a few years ago, but he's on the wrong side of 30, has been used a ton in recent years, and IIRC just got a big contract earlier this year. I fear that he'd be another Billy Kotch.

If Kenny is serious about competing next year, I don't see why he'd deal one of our best bats and our #2/#3 starter.

QUOTE(Chombi and the Fungi @ Oct 9, 2007 -> 10:05 AM) Those Yankee teams he won with were still the best teams in baseball and they had good pitching. It was right before and during the beginning of the big boom in spending with FA's. I wouldn't say anyone could've managed them to win at least one of those titles, but many could. He did a great job and his stock rose to the top. The '98, '99, and 2000 Yankees were probably the best teams in baseball. But the '96 team was not. Their starting rotation was in shambles for most of the year, with their ace missing 2/3 of it with a career-threatening shoulder surgery and Pettitte being the only other reliable guy. Key was at the tail end of his career and Rogers and Gooden flat-out sucked. If it weren't for Rivera and Wettleland, they would've been screwed. As for Torre being "too laid-back", I think that it's almost necessary to have a calming, positive influence in that clubhouse with Psycho George screaming at and berating everybody in the clubhouse. I don't see it as a negative at all. The Yankees aren't winning now being George The Idiot spent way too much in FA on high-priced players on the decline (Johnson, Wright, Clemens, Abreu, Gordon, etc.). And he was flat-out unlucky with a couple of others (Pavano, Giambi). Their farm system has still produced some quality players (Wang, Cano), but it's not enough to overcome the declining dinosaurs in the starting rotation. It's too bad (for them) that Gene Michael is gone, because the players that he scouted/developed (Rivera, Jeter, Pettitte, Williams, Posada) were what laid the foundation for that dynasty.

I'll take one more year of Uribe and then either somebody better through FA or a prospect with upside thereafter. Eckstein and Vizquel are both going to cost more and neither is a significant upgrade.

QUOTE(Kid Gleason @ Oct 8, 2007 -> 10:51 AM) Even if they do win it all, I would think he would tell George to shove it up his a** finally. From what I heard about it, he wasn't too happy about George bringing this to the media this time. I read Birth of a Dynasty on a cross-country flight last week and was amazed at some of the Steinbrenner stories. He is a massive POS and I'm surprised that one of his employees hasn't beaten him into a coma yet. QUOTE(Chombi and the Fungi @ Oct 8, 2007 -> 09:39 PM) I didn't read everyone's comments but I do agree with those who think he is somewhat overrated. I think dealing with the "Ego's" is overrated. He did win titles when the team wasn't the 200 million payroll machine so he deserves credit for that. His failures when it has been a team of AllStar signings though has been what has brought down his legacy. I'd say that his ability to make the playoffs and then rip off four straight in the WS against the juggernaut Braves in their prime, with an injury-riddled (Cone, Pettitte) and declining/under-performing (Gooden, Key, Rogers) rotation, a lineup full of declining dinosaurs (Strawberry, Boggs, Sierra), and a borderline-insane owner who put an excessive amount of pressure on his players makes him a pretty freaking good manager. Even with King George's coffers, Torre's still a HOF manager.

I honestly think that Rogers publishes stuff like this specifically to bait disgruntled, overly-emotional people on message boards.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Oct 1, 2007 -> 08:51 AM) I might be one of the few people here, but I do like Jerry Owens. I agree that he has some serious upside. He's more than adequate defensively and has what nobody else on the team (except for maybe Ozuna) does: the ability to become an elite base-stealer. If Kenny is interested in going after Rowand or Hunter in the off-season, he should seriously consider moving Owens to LF and Fields back to 3B. If Owens can cut down on his strikeouts and improve his OBP by 0.020 points next year, he's a legitimate leadoff hitter.

QUOTE(bigruss22 @ Sep 30, 2007 -> 08:38 AM) could it mean bonds is brought in? Thome > Bonds

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Oct 1, 2007 -> 07:42 AM) Jerry Owens put up better numbers, and that is saying something. Well, in all fairness, Owens improved dramatically over the past month and a half or so. He actually looks like a semi-legitimate leadoff hitter right now (although I'm not sure I'd trust him to play at that level in that role next season).

Meh, I wasn't too excited about this. Sure, there are no better FA options right now and there's nothing in the Sox's pipeline, so I guess that they had to do it. As much as I appreciate what AJ's done for this team, I hope that they're able to acquire a younger option with a better arm and send AJ packing before the end of his extension.