WCSox

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 10:58 PM) Well, that's one of the reasons I love KW. I truly believe with this starting pitching and offense we have, we'll put a few streaks together. +1 Nobody wants to go back to the "The Kids Can Play" rebuilding bulls***. Not with a team that may be underachieving at the plate, but still has a ton of talent. And especially not Sox fans, who can go three generations without seeing a championship. Our starting pitching is very solid this year and our lineup is full of veterans who can hit (some proficiently). Even with a shaky 'pen, this team has more than enough talent to still make the playoffs at this point. If they start playing like they care, they'll get there.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 03:45 PM) At least there is some history to go by with Buerhle and Garcia and the White Sox offense. Sisco, Aardsma, MacDougal, Logan, Thornton, Jenks, Masset, even Gavin Floyd, how many good full seasons do they have in the major leagues COMBINED? KW looked at the radar and thought he had one of the best bullpens in baseball. BP was laughed at when they said Ozzie would go crazy at the number of balls this bullpen would throw. I agree that Kenny probably should've gone after another veteran arm this past winter. That said, going into the season with a semi-elite closer in Jenks, a previously-reliable setup man in MacDougal, and a halfway decent LH specialist in Thornton wasn't exactly suicide. Also keep in mind that even when the bullpen was halfway decent in April, the bats were still cold and this team was still overwhelmingly mediocre. As bad as the bullpen as been overall and as disappointing some individual relievers have been, they were SUPPOSED to be the team's weak point. An offense of prolific veteran hitters who can't knock in RISP and struggle to score 3 runs a game has been the bigger problem, IMO.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 03:34 PM) Even with the bad offense, if the bullpen was as good as KW projected, the White Sox would be right in the thick of it right now. But his projected performances are way off. That's part of his job. So, the "projected performances" of the Sox lineup's ability to score runs are KW's fault as well? What about the "projected performances" of Buehrle and Garcia last year?

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 03:19 PM) They were good moves, but it shows you that wheeler dealer Williams is more of a myth than the truth. He rarely takes gambles. The Garcia move was bold, but he had Ozzie around so he knew Freddy would sign, other than that all the above moves would have been made by 99% of this board if they were presented with them and had the authority to execute them. If those deals were such obvious steals, why wasn't Brian Cashman or Theo Epstein all over them? OK, so that's three. I count a lot more in Kenny's favor.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 03:09 PM) Durham + $ for Jon Adkins was not good. He's made some good trades, and has won a title, but he should have won more. Weren't they looking to dump Durham's salary at that point? Sure, but significantly less than the Yankees, Red Sox, or Angels. And how many championships have his divisional opponents won recently? Yep, like I said the other day, that's the one fair criticism of KW.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 03:01 PM) Didn't we get Cotts in the Foulke deal though? One could argue with what has happened with Foulke that getting Cotts back (and his performance in 05') evened out that deal quite a bit.... I think that you're right. Not sure that Cotts equalized that deal, but it sure did help to have that reliable loogie in '05.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 02:36 PM) You forget to mention the many horrible/bad moves KW made... Which ones would those be? The Todd Ritchie trade? OK. What else? The David Wells trade? The Sox came out ahead on that one, as I don't think that Sirotka threw another major-league inning after 2000. Oh, and I forgot to mention KW signing AJ and acquiring Thorton off of the scrap head last year and getting halfway decent results out of him. Why don't you go ahead and list all off the "crappy" trades that KW has made. EDIT: Forgout about the Foulke/Koch deal. That would be two. Still waiting to see more...

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 02:17 PM) He unloaded Garcia because Garcia is not very good any longer and he knows it. That is not rebuilding though. Rebuilding is dismantelling everything to get younger cheaper and then let the losing begin. Losing is not in KWs nature. OK, I guess it depends on your definition. You're correct that KW isn't going to completely blow up this team. But I believe that he is going to be more than willing to let a few more vets go and "re-tool" it. QUOTE(BearSox @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 02:20 PM) Thats not being a winner... thats being mediocre... besides from 05, of course. LOL, look at some of the signings/deals that Kenny has pulled off over the past five years: Loaiza, Garcia, Contreras, Dye, Thome, Jenks, Danks, getting Paulie to re-sign at less than market value, etc. Hell, even El Duque and Pods were valuable for a season. Consider also that up until last season, his did this within the framework of a middle-market ($50-$70 million) payroll. Even if you conveniently ignore the fact that KW put together a team that won the organization's first championship in 88 freaking years, it's difficult to say that he's been a "mediocre" GM in any sense of the word.

QUOTE(IowaSoxFan @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 02:12 PM) Thats why KW will not be here much longer Yeah, because Kenny's track record of winning and getting a ton out of veterans for relatively low cost makes him a terrible GM.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 02:10 PM) Rebuilding is not going to happen under KWs watch. Get that through your thick skull. Didn't KW just unload Garcia and replace him with Danks this winter? He's not going to completely blow up the team, but I'm pretty sure that KW will "re-tool" the Sox.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 01:55 PM) Dye's numbers aren't even as good as Abreu's, outside of HR and SLG. Abreu would help our lineup a bit. He's a guy who can draw the walk and usually get on base at a pretty good clip, unlike the sub-.300 OBP of Dye. Abreu can run the bases pretty damn well too and could use a change of scenery. You really have to take a player's nubers with the Yankee's with a grain of salt, considering the amount of BS with the fans and media and the expectations put on them. Outside of his OBP, Abreu's numbers in Philly weren't exactly eye-popping either. He's a good player, but not even near worth what he's getting paid. +1 I don't even know why the Yankees would want Dye, much less eat a large chunk of Abreu's contract to get him. Dye's going to want a three- or four-year deal at about double what he's making now, he's on the wrong side of 30, and the Yankees are going to be rebuilding by the July 31st deadline. Even considering Steinbrenner's obsession with over-paying for aging vets, I'd give this deal about a 5% chance of happening at best.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 09:51 AM) Now I'm actually kinda worried that this trade might happen. Sounds like the organization is pissed that Dye said baseball is a business, and if he gets traded, he'll go play hard somewhere else. Dye and a number of his teammates certainly are playing like they don't care anymore, so I can't say I'm surprised. Thanks for '05 and '06, JD, but if you're going to hit .240 this year, I won't be sad to see you dealt next month. And no thanks on Abreu. His numbers have slid over the past couple of years and he isn't worth what he's being paid anyway. I'd rather the Sox spend their money more wisely and develop Sweeney/Terrero isntead.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 06:30 AM) He did? Who gave him credit? Very few people if any at all. Most thought Oz and Coop did a hell of a job - but KW didn't get much credit. He didn't win any awards for his job in 2005. It seems he always gets s*** on around here. He had a pretty damn good plan and still made some good signings and trades - Toby Hall, Darin Erstad, John Danks, Nick Massett - he still can't win. His plan was a good one with the bullpen - it isn't working now even though it did the first month - but he had a plan and it seemed to be a good one. I like having one of the most aggressive GMs in baseball. I like that he always wants to win. I like that we always seem to have a good product on the field and always seem to have a realistic chance to win. It has been that way under his watch.His worst season as GM was in 2002 at 81-81. He has never had a losing season as GM with the White Sox in 5 years. That says a lot. I appreciate the job he has done and respect it. I have faith in him to do his job and get the correct players in here in order to win this year and the years following. I would be shocked if he didn't make any moves to try and better this team immediately. Excellent post. This lineup scored 868 runs last season. But it's Kenny's fault that they're not producing now? I have no problem with them replacing Greg Walker, but blaming Kenny is just retarded. As for the bullpen, this team already has a lineup and starting rotation full of recently-productive, high-priced veteran players. And also a semi-stud closer. JR's spending in the neighborhood of $100 million on that. But he was "cheap" with the long and middle relief? Jesus Christ, what else do you people want? Dennis Eckersley and Marino Rivera in their primes? Or is it KW's fault for not predicing that MacDougal's ERA would be near double his career average this year? Apparently some people are forgetting that it wasn't too long ago that Jamie Navarro, James Baldwin, and Mike Sirotka were anchoring our rotation. And our middle and long relief consisted of crap like Carlos Castillo and Bobby Howry. I'll take our current situation over the late '90s Ron Schueler teams any day.

QUOTE(Wealz @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 08:06 AM) The only way to build a bullpen is on the cheap. There's definitely some truth to that, especially when the starting rotation was taking up near $60 million in payroll last year. The Sox got lucky as hell with their 'pen two years ago. Hermanson, Cotts, Politte, and Vizcaino all pitched at a higher level than their career averages. Agreed that Kenny should've foreseen Cotts taking a dive in '06 and added another setup man. Then again, Kenny has also managed to get Jenks and Thornton off the scrap heap and got production out of them. And I don't think that anybody would've foreseen a decent reliever like MacDougal pitching like he is right now.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 03:14 PM) You're definitely spot on. People are pointing to the early years as a fault of Kenny's, but don't look at the vast improvements he has made as GM -- really, that's what's I liked seeing. DING! DING! DING! Garcia, Contreras, Dye, El Duque, AJ, Jenks, Hermanson, and even Pods were essential to our '05 championship. And now we have Thome, Danks, and Vazquez. This is the most reasonable criticism of KW that I've heard here in a while. The farm system definitely needs to improve. With the way that this team is currently playing and with Mark, JD, and Crede no under contract after this year, it may happen sooner rather than later.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 02:51 PM) Well Ozzie's days are running out either way. Either KW will fire him to cover his own ass, or the new GM will get a manager he likes. My God, your posts are awful. Let's look at this comparison.... Jerry Manuel: 500-471 (.515) record with Sox, one 90-win season, and an 0-3 playoff record. He managed the Sox for SIX YEARS. Ozzie after 3.3 years as Sox manager: 297-239 (.554) record with Sox, two 90-win seasons, 11-1 playoff record, one AL Pennant, one WS Championship. But Ozzie won't make it through his fourth year because of his team's performance? I'll let him say it... QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 02:55 PM) Some of you guys are complete f***ing morons. QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 02:58 PM) I saw a pretty harsh regresion to the means after last years career year he had, just as the same could have been said for Crede and Dye. And all 3 are happening, albeit they have fallen off more than I thought. And I'm sure that you predicted all of this back in December and would've traded all three. I'm really glad that you're not sitting in KW's chair.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 02:00 PM) lmao. And yes, I'm saying Dye is old Dye is 31, which isn't very "old" at all, and is coming off of an MVP-caliber season. But I'm sure that his age-induced decline in skills occurred in seven months. Oh, and he was WS MVP, but Kenny still made a bad decision by bringing him here, right? Sounds like you need to do some research. If last year was a "fluke", what was August-October of '05? LOL, one guy? What the F are you talking about? There's ONE starter on the roster that's hitting .250 right now... and he's also the only one with an OBP of .330 or higher (and, ironically, he's even older than Dye!). But he missed a bunch of games with an injury and that's all Kenny's fault as well, huh? And I'm sure that Kenny could've predicted MacDougal's ERA going from 1.55 to 6.75, so he's a moron for keeping him on the roster as well, right? And that Kenny sure was an idiot for trading Cotts (who couldn't even make it in the freaking Cubs bullpen) for Aardsma, right? I'm sure that Cotts would be kicking some serious ass if he were on the South Side right now. Stupid Kenny! Your posts have become even more irrational over the past year, which is quite an accomplishment. I thought that college was supposed to have the opposite effect.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 01:22 PM) When the players are not performing for a period of 9 weeks, it's because they aren't very good. When the players are not very good it's on the guy that brought them here, the GM. So you're saying that Konerko, Dye, and Crede aren't very good? That's a winning argument if I've ever heard one. This may come as a surprise to you, but in the real world, people need to take responsiblity for their own lack of execution. If I don't pay attention to what I'm doing at work and don't produce, it's not my boss' fault. It's my fault for having my head up my ass. Similarly, it wasn't Kenny's fault when Paulie and JD hit near the Mendoza Line for the first month and a half of the season. QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 01:24 PM) Because its often that an offense that scores 520 runs in the first half of last year, just goes in the toliet as a group. Not one or two players, the entire f***ing team. When its part of the team, sure blame the players. When every single f***ing guy that comes up to the bat has the same exact blueprint problem then guess what, its not just the players. AJ used to be a line drive hitter, now he thinks he is Thome. So then it's Greg Walker's fault? I can see that. Then again, experienced veterans like Dye and Paulie should be able to hit .250 with a freaking tax attorney posing as their hitting coach.

QUOTE(LVSoxFan @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 12:58 PM) On Comcast they're showing that MacDougal since May 8 has an era of 15.00. Yep, Kenny must be drugging his Cheerios every morning. And Cotts did a lot this season to show that Kenny made the wrong decision in the Aardsma trade. :oldrolleyes When will Soxtalk ever put blame on the players for not performing? My guess is never.

QUOTE(spiderman @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 11:31 AM) I generally agree with the White Sox policy of not signing pitchers to long-term deals. In general, I agree with this. Unless it's an established bad-ass still in his prime (like Santana) or some young stud like Verlander. The Sox did a great job of dumping pitchers a year or so before they fizzed out back in the '90s. I can't imagine how bad their financial situation would've been if they'd re-signed Blackjack, Alvarez, or Fernandez to expensive, long-term deals back in the mid/late '90s.

QUOTE(thedoctor @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 08:56 AM) totally agree on your point about zambrano pitching through something right now. his arm angle is noticeably lower than it was last year which makes me think he has some kind of shoulder issue. +1 That's exactly what a player will do when his shoulder is either tired or injured.

QUOTE(beck72 @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 04:42 AM) Idiotic thought. +1 The Ozzie Hatred Hysteria has reached the point where DUSTY BAKER should be his replacement now.

QUOTE(maggsmaggs @ May 31, 2007 -> 06:10 PM) KW has had the highest payroll in the AL central every year since 2001 and has won one division. He needs to go, its his time. My God, I need a drink. Some of these posts are giving me a headache. (1) Why shouldn't the Sox have the highest payroll in the AL Central? Aren't they the largest sports market in the divisoin? (2) How many other AL Central teams have won a World Series in the past decade? (3) Do the names Dye, Garcia, Contreras, El Duque, Jenks, Cotts, Politte, Hermanson, and Podsednik mean anything to you? They should, as they played major roles in the Sox winning two years ago. They were also all acquired by Kenny Williams. Needs to go, my ass.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jun 1, 2007 -> 09:37 AM) Konerko has a partial no-trade clause, preventing him from being traded to something like 10 teams without his permission. Trading Paulie would be a big mistake, IMO. Since we're almost certianly not going to re-sign them, I'd deal Dye and Buehrle at the deadline if this team is still playing like this. I'd also consider dealing Crede, who is only under our control for another year and is still having back problems. Those three would shave off $20 million in payroll and net a good number of young players and/or prospects.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jun 1, 2007 -> 01:03 PM) And so talent plays an aspect, which Ozzie has very little to do with. Interesting concept. Add to the fact that he had the league's best pitching staff in 2005, a year in which it overproduced, and then he had one of the league's best offenses last year that he poorly manipulated by having Podsednik leading off for all but 18 of his PA's, and you get your two 90+ win seasons pretty easily. It's not "easy" to get a 90-win season with the below-average pitching that the '06 Sox did. If you don't believe me, look at the Jerry Manuel teams. All of the power in the world got them ONE division win (and an 0-3 playoff record) in six years. I'd say that Ozzie got a lot out of a not-that-great 2005 offense by making them manufacture runs. I didn't see that approach in the Jerry Manuel or Terry Bevington eras. Ozzie also had to replace his future-HOF DH with a washed-up Carl Everett and they were on their third closer going into the playoffs (a 270 lb. rookie with a drinking problem). Pure talent carried that team to a LARGE extent, but I'd say that Ozzie deserved at least A LITTLE credit. As I'll point out in a minute, lesser managers have failed with similar talent. Then you've probably forgotten that Lamont had the best pitching staff in the AL in '93 (Blackjack, Fernandez, Alvarez, Bere, Thigpen, Hernandez, etc.), not to mention an MVP-caliber Frank, Robin Ventura, Ellis Burks, and Lance Johnson, and a very solid defensive infield... and they BLEW IT in the ALCS! Finally, we agree on something. Gene Lamont, Jeff Torborg, Tony LaRussa, and Al Lopez had similar talent and none of them won a ring. And I'd argue that the latter two are/were much better managers than Ozzie. How is Ozzie putting MacDougal and Aardsma in bad spots? Is MacDougal (a former closer) suddenly incapable of being a setup man now? He seemed to be pretty freaking good at it last year (1.55 ERA). If that. A big part of managing/coaching is being able to go all the way when you catch lightning in a bottle. Ozzie was able to do that two years ago. I can't say the same for some of his predecessors.