WCSox

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 14, 2007 -> 09:51 AM) Those two for Thome and his good contract? PUKE! Given how Figgins has regressed over the past two years and how poorly Santana is pitching this year, I wouldn't be comfortable with it either.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Jun 14, 2007 -> 05:53 AM) Cabrera is mediocre at best. I probably won't want any of these other names that people will supposedly pray over either. I don't want the sox to keep acquiring bad to mediocre young talent. They have enough of that. Why do they need to keep stockpiling the same crap? A good throwing arm? They can't find a good throwing arm on the free agent market if that is all you are looking for? They would have to give up Buehrle to get one? Insane.I don't want to settle for these types of players. I agree and don't understand the hype about him in this thread. Cabrera may turn out to be an All-Star one day, but I don't see any evidence of that at this point. Unless the Cabrera is part of a package that involves better talent like Cano and Kennedy, I have no interest in him. QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Jun 14, 2007 -> 08:33 AM) That's exactly right. Last year's Indians were a much more talented team than the 2007 Sox. They had lots of excellent young players. +1 Outside of Danks and Jenks, the Sox don't have any young players to brag about.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jun 14, 2007 -> 09:38 AM) Well, I think the whole point of the concept of this discussion is that maybe Jim would consider doing something other than playing @ home if it helped him get a ring. Yes, he wouldn't be on his way to the Cubs or to the Tribe, but there are several teams, notably Seattle, LAA, and probably a few others, who might really be happy to get their hands on a bat like his, and those teams may have a much bigger chance of getting Jim a ring in the next year or two than we do. The question is Jim's priorities; does he want to stay in Chicago, or does he want a ring? And the whole point of trading Mr. Thome would be to try to fill in those holes for a few years down the road. If we suck next year, Thome is the difference between 60 and 70 wins maybe. In that case, well, screw it, give me whatever talent Jim could bring back in a trade, let him have one last shot at a ring, and maybe we find ourselves in a better spot in 09. Understood, but Seattle really has nothing to offer. Their minor league system isn't very good and Ichiro is a FA next year. If we could get Figgins and Ervin Santana (buying low and hoping that both bounce back) from LAA, it MIGHT be worth it just for the sake of getting younger and filling some holes. Then again, I'm not sure that the Angels would even want to do that deal.

According to SS2k's comments in the other thread, Thome would only waive his no-trade clause back in '05 to go to the Indians, Cubs, or Sox. Being home in Illinois or at his former home in Cleveland seems pretty important to him. I'm sure that he'd love to go back to Cleveland if they remain in contention, but unless he's drastically changed his mind, I don't see him going anywhere else. Plus, I don't see the point in trading a future HOFer who we're getting at a bargain... especially when we're losing Dye and Crede at the end of the year. This lineup is going to be absolutely desperate for power next season.

QUOTE(Heads22 @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 04:31 PM) I appreciate him being conservative with Danks, who needs a solid nickname. Absolutely. There's no reason to keeps Danks out there with a high pitch count during a lost season. I'm really excited about Danks' future and am glad to see Ozzie handling him carefully. QUOTE(The Ginger Kid @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 04:47 PM) every time you post I want a beer. And milk. Weird.

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 05:04 PM) mostly cuz Abreu's just not this bad. Sadly, he's arguably better than Dye is right now. The Yankees would be stupid to trade for another RF right now, but they've done idiotic things in the past, so there's always hope. QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 05:05 PM) Well, for me, I'd sit here and compare the value of Cano with the value of the value of an additional probably mid to late first round draft pick and a sandwich pick, which is what we're almost certain to get for JD if he walks, and I think that unless we find some major talent for next year somewhere, the 2 draft picks have a much higher value to me. Draft picks are a gamble and, even if they do pan out, they won't bear fruit for several years. The Sox will desperately need a halfway decent 2B next year (I don't think that Cintron, Mack, or Ozuna are everyday starters and I don't think that Tad is worth re-signing). And while Cano is probably not a future HOFer, he's a solid second baseman and a good contact hitter (and not to mention a lefty) who would fit well into Crede's spot in the order. I'd go with the above-average player that can help immediately instead of the wildcard who may or may not help four years down the road. JMO.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 04:23 PM) So if people are giving KW so much credit for Garcia getting hurt (and really, it's never great when the highlight of your trade is that the player you gave up is hurting,) how come more people aren't bashing for NOT trading Crede? The Sox knew Crede was ailing. His value was actually somewhat high, and there was a demand for him. That might have something to do with the fact that Crede's had these back problems for two years now, they haven't sidelined him for a significant period of time (up until now), they haven't hindered his play, and the Sox were relying on him to make another run at the WS. As for the Garcia deal, if some dumbass GM wants to trade a top-tier prospect for an aging pitcher who lost 7 mph off of his fastball last season and doesn't think that an MRI is necessary, Kenny should be punished for NOT pulling the trigger. His job is to build another winning championship team, not to show the other GMs all of his cards. And it's not like Kenny was hiding some super-secret information about Freddy anyway. Hell, WE knew that he was in decline and that something was possibly wrong with him. And all we do is read the papers and watch the games.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 04:46 PM) 80% minimum for the arbitration settlement. I'm not giving Crede at least $4 million for 2008. In that case, me neither. QUOTE(winninguglyin83 @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 04:55 PM) my biggest fear is we don't have much that people will want. except starting pitching. And if we trade Buehrle or Garland, it's hard to imagine how bad we will be. We're trading Buehrle. Bank on it. His market value is through the roof already and JR doesn't like to give pitchers anything more than three-year deals.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 04:45 PM) Is Cano worth Dye straight up? I'd say probably not. Given that both Dye and Iguchi are free agents next year and are both entering the down-slopes of their careers, I'd strongly consider doing that deal. Unfortuntaely, Dye picked the wrong season to put up crap-tacular numbers at the plate.

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 04:34 PM) But if the Yanks treat him like a premiere prospect, untouchable or all but, he's just not worth it. Absolutely. We're talking about a relatively good player here, not a stud-in-the-making.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 04:08 PM) Keep Iguchi. He's solid, but he defense is worrying me a little bit. I've been wondering if he's been playing through a nagging injury. That would also explain his abrupt lack of power at the plate. I agree. At the very least, he can eat innings. Nobody's going to trade for a player recovering from a back injury. Still, I could see KW and JR trying to get an arbitrator to cut his salary significantly next year. If he's able to come back from surgery and play at a decent level for the first few months next year, he might be worth something before the deadline next year. It might not be a bad gamble if the price were right (say, $2-3 million).

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 03:50 PM) When Robinson Cano becomes a 40/40 guy let me know. When Soriano strikes out less than 120 times in a season and is able to play something other than LF competently, let me know. Seriously, I'm not even trying to put Cano in the same league as Soriano. But, geez, Soriano is a freaking strikeout MACHINE. Because of that, their BB/K ratios are just about the same (~0.28). QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 04:10 PM) The fact that he hasn't even attempted to steal much isn't telling? Not to mention his minor league numbers, as Kalapse mentioned. No, it certainly is telling. I agree that he doesn't appear to be much of a base-stealer, but it seems really odd that a 2B has attempted so few steals. Geez, even Iguchi attempts way more than that. Cano's 41 doubles last year and four triples already this season certainly suggest that he has some wheels (especially considering that he doesn't have a ton of power), which is what I was referring to when I brought up his "speed."

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 03:43 PM) And again, he CAN'T run... You're making that statement based on 16 attempts over 2 1/2 seasons? I'm not saying you're wrong, but there isn't much of a sample size to draw from. Yeah, I suppose that his .890 OPS last year had nothing to do with that. Only a Yankee 2B with those numbers would make it to the ASG.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 03:39 PM) Barry Bonds had an IsoD (OBP - BA) of 107 as a rookie, 68 his second year, 85 his 3rd year and 103 his 4th year. Robinson Cano's have been 23, 23 and 38 over the past 3 years. Barry Bonds had a low OBP because his batting average was below .260, he was still drawing a whole lot of walks but it wasn't showing because he wasn't hitting for particularly good contact. Cano has drawn a grand total of 45 walks in his career (1312 PA), he has no plate discipline what so ever and that's not a skill easily learned. Hell, Freddy Sanchez hit .344 last season so it can be done by a moderately talented ball player. Soriano's 241 walks in 4136 PA isn't very impressive either, yet it hasn't exaxtly derailed his career. Cano will never be Frank or Barry and he very well may never be an All Star again, but I disagree that he can't improve his plate discipline at least somewhat.

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 03:16 PM) Really? Got any examples of hitters who consistently walked once for every 20 abs who improved that in any significant way? Barry Bonds' OBP was around .330 for his first two years in the majors and he didn't get anywhere near .400 until his fifth season. Young, cocky players are often undisciplined at the plate. Even if Cano's plate discipline only improves marginally, that wouldn't exactly be a death-sentence. Soriano is another high-slugging/low-walk guy and he seems to be enjoying a pretty good major-league career. Who said that Cano is going to hit .340 for his career??? If he "only" puts up a .290 career average, that and his power, speed, and defense will still make him a very solid player. Nobody is saying that he's a future HOFer, but he's got a ton of talent, already has an All Star appearance and a Silver Slugger award, and his plate discipline can only get better.

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 03:09 PM) Because of the WS, Ozzie has a chance to prove that he can coach young players. If he refuses to do it, he should be canned. There aren't any other options, and he'd better figure that out. I'd say that Ozzie did a pretty good job of coaching that rookie closer down the stretch in '05, no? The Sox didn't go into this year to season to develop young players. They went in to win with their vets and expected guys like Danks, Massett, Aardsma, Logan, etc. to contribute right off the bat. But since their situation has obviously changed, Ozzie WILL have to develop young players and deal with the inevitable growing pains. We'll see how that goes.

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 03:03 PM) He hit .340 -- which is particularly useful, since he refuses to take walks. Even hitting .340 (.340!!!), his obp was only .365. His minor league batting average was only .278. There are few stats that scream "fluke" more loudly. He may be a .300 hitter. But no better than that. He never steals bases, can't take a walk, but he does have a bit of power for a second baseman. All in all, he's a okay bat for the position and the price, but he's nothing close to his press clippings. I'd like the Sox to have him, but the more I think about it, the more I hope they'll do better elsewhere. Patience at the plate can be taught. The ability to hit .340 can't. Given that Cano is young and that he's also pretty good defensively, his upside strongly overwhelms his lack of discipline at the plate.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 03:48 PM) If KW knowingly traded a hurt player, no matter how much it benefitted the White Sox, JR should get a new GM. What does it tell you that people on freaking Soxtalk strongly suspected that Freddy may have had an arm injury, yet the idiots in Philly never bothered to do a physical on their $10 million investment? How could Kenny "pull a fast one" on a major-league GM that he couldn't even sneak past an attentive Sox fan? QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 04:02 PM) Completely agree. I find it very hard to beleive Williams and the Sox wouldn't let Philly do a physical on Freddy. Philadelphia made the choice to not have a physical preformed on Garcia, and they are paying for it now. +1

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 02:43 PM) where? [mirror]

QUOTE(kwolf68 @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 02:37 PM) Cano' is projected to compete for batting championships. The fact he is cheap never enters the mind of Yankee brass, but the sheer talent of the player. Didn't he hit something like .330 last year? He's going nowhere. I think it was Joe Morgan who compared Cano's swing to Rod Carew's. That may be a bit of a stretch, but this kid is very talented AND very cheap AND still young. The Yankees would be idiots to trade him for anything other than a stud.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 02:37 PM) You quoted me, no? I can't respond? It is not just this season - this is all the time. I am surprised you haven't noticed. HE IS FREAKING AWFUL! He is beyond that actually. Defnitely the worst in the AL. Holy Hyperbole, Batman!

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 02:32 PM) I've always been a fan of Iguchi's but even I can admit the guy has lost all of his range at second and now his arm has become suspect with the way he's been lobbing the ball around the infield this season. He has lost some range since coming here. No doubt about that.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 02:30 PM) So you're saying you believe Iguchi is good defensively? I'd never confuse him with Nellie Fox, but he's far from "awful" at 2B. QUOTE(southsideirish @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 02:31 PM) I don't think you are watching the same Iguchi that the rest of us are then. I think you are being blinded by the 2005 World Series ring or drinking too much Tadguchi flavored Kool-Aid. I think that you are being blinded by the obnoxious piling-on and knee-jerk rhetoric so prevalent on Soxtalk this season.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 02:19 PM) Iguchi's defense? I'm not joking when I say Barfield has 50 pct more range than Iguchi does. Iguchi might be the worst defensive 2nd baseman in baseball. QUOTE(southsideirish @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 02:21 PM) No doubt about it. Iguchi is a terrible defensive player. Awful. AWFUL! :oldrolleyes

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 02:08 PM) I don't think so either. Give me Barfield any day over Iguchi. I'd go with Iguchi's defense and playoff experience down the stretch. Then again, the Sox will get little for Tad, so it's probably not even worth dealing him.