WCSox

QUOTE(Steff @ Jan 11, 2007 -> 08:57 PM) I never said those reading this bit of news were dumbasses... You've already made this point. That's correct, you misrepresented what I said. Thanks for at least admitting that. Why you would have expected me to have "personal contact" with Barry Bonds is beyond me. So, I suppose that all of Hitler's buddies in Nazi Germany in 1935 would've given a more accurate and informed account of his character than the "ignorant" professors who authored the history books decades later. :rolleyes I won't argue with you there. The media conveniently overlooked a lot of bad stuff that Michael Jordan did. Then again, there have been A LOT of "bad stories" about Barry Bonds over the years, even by pro athlete standards. QUOTE(Texsox @ Jan 12, 2007 -> 05:01 AM) We will never know if he was a first ballot, or even a HoF, without using steroids. OK, he isn't any *worse* of a cheater than Sosa or Mac. And your point . . . ? The only point I could make out of that is there are enough to create a Baseball Hall of Shame I'm assuming that Barry didn't start using steroids until the late '90s. I could be wrong about that, but that's what's generally believed. I find it interesting that Bonds is now saying that he never singled out Sweeney. I don't understand how that news would've come out in the first place, unless somebody completely fabricated it.

QUOTE(Steff @ Jan 11, 2007 -> 04:56 PM) By some things never changing did you mean that you are still having trouble comprehending? It's pretty simple. You don't have to be a smart ass to attempt to make a point. LOL, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. I don't recall saying "everyone." And I don't believe that it was necessary for me to have had personal contact with Hitler, Stalin, Mother Teresa, or John Paul II to be able to make accurate and informed statements about their character. As I said before, this isn't about Bonds taking steroids, growth hormone, or amphetamines. What was that you were saying about reading comprehension? If you want to believe that Barry is a decent guy who is unfairly portrayed in the media, nobody's stopping you. But there is a massive amount of evidence out there that suggests that you're wrong.

QUOTE(Steff @ Jan 11, 2007 -> 04:39 PM) I do believe I was pretty clear in referring to douchebag paparazzi who dig in celebrities trash with that response so did you want to unask that question? Wow, I see that some things never change here. :rolleyes Yeah, you're right. It's all a big media conspiracy. :rolleyes

QUOTE(ptatc @ Jan 11, 2007 -> 04:20 PM) I agree. He built the championships with one plan then when the team got old and his coach tried a powerplay to get his job he tried another plan with youth and failed. He got praised, for good reason, for the first plan which won unheard of championships. He got fired deservedly so for the second one which failed. What is there to hate? 6 rings or getting fired for failing? I don't care much for basketball in general and agree that Krause's ego is even larger than his gut, but he was correct that organizations win championships. Jordan sure as hell didn't all by himself.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Jan 11, 2007 -> 03:30 PM) Are they illegal outside of MLB? Honest question. They aren't as 'harmful' as steroids, are they? I've always thought of amphetamines as (more or less) energy type things that, prior to last season, most players took. Amphetamines definitely are illegal everywhere. They merely didn't test for them in MLB prior to last season. BTW, I'm not singling out Barry for amphetamine use, which was absolutely rampant in MLB for a LONG time. My point of contention is him blaming a teammate for his failed drug test.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Jan 11, 2007 -> 03:07 PM) Who had Bonds fought with in his career, players wise? I know about the Jeff Kent incident -- which, BTW, was likely as much Kent's fault as Bonds' -- were there any other well-documented 'fights'? I know when AJ was asked about it once, he said he didn't have much of a problem with Barry... Barry was voted off of his baseball team by his teammates at ASU for repeated insubordination/disrespect (insubordination to the team captain, general verbal disrespect, borrowed their cars/clothes without asking, etc.). Of course, the coach reversed the decision after Bobby Bonds drove his car onto the practice field and threatened to ruin the coach's career. Aside from the shoving match with Kent in the dugout, Kent has sounded off about Barry to the press (link) and suggested that other players don't like him either. On top of that, Barry doesn't work out or stretch with his teammates and has a history of not showing up for team photos. He has his own private room in the Giants clubhouse with a big-screen TV and a La-Z-Boy chair. Like his college career, he has a general lack of respect for his teammates. Regarding A.J.'s comments, he also stated that everybody was "walking on eggshells" in the Giants clubhouse because of Bonds and Felipe Alou. And now Barry points his finger at a teammate after failing a drug test. I can't say I'm surprised.

QUOTE(Rex Kicka** @ Jan 11, 2007 -> 01:36 PM) Steroids aren't illegal when prescribed by a doctor. Eye surgery performed by non doctors is. If Bonds got a prescription, t'aint illegal. Something tells me that Victor Conte doesn't have a license to prescribe steroids. I'm assuming that HGH is also illegal to sell without a license, but I could be wrong about that. The Commissioner's office and MLBPA are lucky that the government isn't coming down on them for conveniently looking the other way while players were injecting themselves in the ballpark locker rooms. One could argue that they were accessories to illegal drug distribution, although it may be difficult to show enough proof to get a conviction. While all of this is obviously a black eye on baseball, it makes Fank look like a saint and hopefully increases his chances of induction into Cooperstown.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jan 11, 2007 -> 11:25 AM) Heck, even outside of professional sports you have people all over the world blaming everyone else but themselves for problems/situations they get into (I'm not really talking about major problems, even something stupid like someone getting in trouble for not showing up in time....blaming traffic or there friend or whatever). Throwing a teammate under the bus to cover one's ass is big no-no in professional sports. To be fair, Palmiero is a douche for doing the same to Tejada.

QUOTE(Steff @ Jan 11, 2007 -> 10:27 AM) I didn't say you should give a ratts ass, and I'll add that I think if you did you would be a dumbass. So, when Barry points his finger at a temmate after testing positive for an amphetamine, only a "dumbass" would consider it news? Barry's treatment of his teammates and members of the media is well-documented. Do a Google search if you don't already know.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 11, 2007 -> 09:14 AM) The one way that Bonds is making it worse is that currently, it is all about himself. At least Sosa and Mac had the cover of no one really knowing for sure. Now everyone knows for sure about Bonds, and he's not nice enough to just shut his mouth and slip away. The best thing McGwire is doing now, unless he wanted to sit down with George "Whitewash" Mitchell and tell everything, is just shutting up and going away. Good point. His ridiculous "Bonds On Bonds" show clearly showed that his self-importance is off the charts, even by pro athlete standards. His constant use of the race card also makes him look like a complete douche.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 11, 2007 -> 08:58 AM) I consider him to actually be quite a bit worse than any of those, simply because he's the one who's body worked well enough with the drugs to give him a shot to challenge for that record. And he also will not simply slip away from the game to preserve a little bit of its shattered dignity - he actually wants the record, and seems to think he deserves it, despite what he did to get there. Agreed that it's a shame, given that his God-given talent allowed him to become the greatest position player of our generation. He was a first-ballot HOFer before he started using that junk. I see your point about his arrogance. Then again, I don't see how it makes him any more of a cheater than Sammy or Mark in their attempt to break Maris' record in '98.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 11, 2007 -> 08:41 AM) The fact of the matter is, Barry Bonds is about to break perhaps the greatest record in American professional sports. And he has done so by breaking the law and breaking the rules. That is all I care about. I don't care one bit about him being an ass to the media, or the media whining about him being an ass, or him whining about the media being an ass to him. Doesn't concern me one bit. I just don't want to ever have a son who comes up to me and asks me why there's this asterisk beside the home run record. I'm not giving him a free pass for that. I'm just saying that he's no worse than Canseco, Palmiero, Sammy, McGwire, etc. when it comes to cheating. I don't consider those guys to be bad human beings. But the way that Barry has treated people throughout his career has convinced me that he's a very poor human being. In my book, that's a lot worse than being a cheater. QUOTE(Rex Kicka** @ Jan 11, 2007 -> 08:43 AM) I just fail to see how using steroids is cheating. Especially when its as pervasive in the industry as it has been. If its cheating, why are other physical enhancements (like a player getting unnecessary Lasik eye surgery to enhance vision) allowed? Isn't that the same kind of cheating? Baseball is one of the few sports where cheating is somewhat acceptable... or at least forgivable. In that regard, it isn't comparable to a lot of other sports. I imagine that if, say, a pro golfer got caught cheating, he'd be blackballed from the PGA Tour for life.

This is a good example of what the pro-Bonds crowd doesn't seem to understand. It's not about the steroids, growth hormone, or amphetamines. He's no more a "cheater" than many of his peers. It's about the way Barry treats people.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 10, 2007 -> 05:07 PM) So in other words, the only people available would have been roughly the equivalent of Mackowiak and Anderson? I have no idea who was available. Well, that's the risk you take when you trade away a proven, every-day CF and go with a rookie. I also disagree with Ozzie's decision to play Mack in CF so often, but unlike what some people here (not you or Kalapse) claim, I don't believe he did it because he's stubborn or stupid. Like I said, there's A LOT that goes on in a clubhouse that we're not privy to. There's myriad of possible reasons why BA "grabbed some bench" late last summer.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jan 10, 2007 -> 04:58 PM) No because that's pretty ridiculous. Even if KW is a big BA fan he's not going to leave him on the roster if he's not going to be used correctly. The use of Mack in CF last year hurt the team big time and lead to more than a handful of losses, KW knows this and has said it a few times on Chicago Sports Radio. He's not going to put his like/dislike of a player over what's best for the team this much is true. If Ozzie went to KW and requested a CF, KW would have gone right out and got him one and from what has been said in the media no such request was ever made. So what you're saying is that whatever KW, Ozzie, and other members of the organization tell the media is indeed what happened. I'm not sure I buy that, especially when Ozzie was so down on a player that KW was so high on. For all we know, it very well may have been a point of contention between the two. It's possible that Ozzie indeed did talk to KW about acquiring another CF and that the players that were available after the deadline were either mediocre defensively or were a liability in the lineup.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jan 10, 2007 -> 04:43 PM) If you're going to be disciplining your players then go to your general manager and request a player to fill in. I don't disagree with you, but did you consider that maybe he did and maybe KW said "no"? KW has always been a big BA supporter and he very well may have refused a request to send him down to the minors.

QUOTE(shoota @ Jan 10, 2007 -> 04:48 PM) Guillen's not the most rational guy, he's not a leader like Scott Skiles. Guillen's macho "a mi manera" attitude puts his ego in front of the team's benefit. LOL, Scott Skiles. Guillen's "macho attitude" brought this team a championship. That's a lot more than I can say for Scott Freaking Skiles.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 10, 2007 -> 04:43 PM) First of all, if that were the case, i think it's pretty likely we'd have heard something specific about it.... Not necessarily. I imagine that we hear very little of what goes on in the clubhouse. One of my sister's friends knows BA from their days at the U of A and I've been told that he isn't the most mature person in the world... even by pro athlete standards. I do know of one incident (BA getting showboating in a limo after the WS) that drew the ire of his teammates. And after reading some of BA's quotes in the local papers last year about his attitude towards "the honeys", I can see how a manager could have issues with a player like him. I'm not saying that Ozzie's decision to play Mack in CF was right or wrong. But I could that Anderson's lack of playing time may have had a lot to do with his attitude.

QUOTE(shoota @ Jan 10, 2007 -> 04:32 PM) Sure, Anderson was a bad offensive player in the first half, and Mackowiak’s center field defense wasn’t well known. My criticism is based on the second half, when Anderson gave the team the better option to win than Mackowiak. Did it ever occur to you that Anderson may have had limited playing time for disciplinary reasons? He does have a history of cocky, immature behavior.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jan 10, 2007 -> 03:24 PM) I'll take a quick crack at a few of these. Also because he sucked for much of the year. Also because he couldn't hit the broadside of Blalock's ass, his control is so bad. You understand that Tracey is nowhere near ready for the Majors, right? That his control is terrible? For that alone he deserves to be sent down, and he especially deserves it when he blatantly disregards his manager's order. Right. Guillen's the only manager who ever took his player's opinions into regard. It be much better if he left them off the ASG Roster (like Garner) or spread rumors about them to the NY Media (like Torre). Personally, I think Ozzie handles a pitching staff that way it should be handled. Yet he shouldn't be angry when someone fails to protect his players when he sends them to. This one is the least subjective of them all. I clearly remember that Ozzie called a team meeting to discipline Freddy after he showed up Iguchi and I'm sure it happened the other times, too. It's his fault that Jim Thome got tendonitis, Joe Crede's back flared, the offense disappeared and each pitcher disappeared for significant portions of the season. While I don't agree with everything that Ozzie does, his "mishandling" of the '06 Sox is nothing more than a myth created by a bunch of fair-weather fans who don't understand baseball very well.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Jan 9, 2007 -> 02:40 PM) What makes Ripken so deserving? His .276 career batting average or his 436 career home runs in only 3001 games played (11,551 ABs)? Ripken was a very good defensive shortstop for a long time and is generally recognized as the first power-hitting SS. He also has a ring and the record for consecutive games played. McGwire hit a ton of HRs, but had a low BA and by playing 1B, wasn't much of a defensive asset to his teams.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jan 9, 2007 -> 02:28 PM) Especially when you consider that steroids saved his career. It was over, and then he found the juice. Suddenly, he became a monster home run hitter again. Gee.... According to Canseco, he was on the juice as far back as the late '80s/early '90s.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jan 9, 2007 -> 01:17 PM) I don't think Belle deserves it. I tihnk part of what makes you a HOFer is the ability to be good for a long peirod of time and while Belle was good for 10 years and was one of the best players in the game for a few of him, he didn't have the longevity to be in the hall. Agreed. And while I love Harold, I don't think that he's a HOFer either. Congrats to Tony and Cal.

QUOTE(The Critic @ Jan 9, 2007 -> 10:40 AM) He should have his voting rights pulled for a few years, so he can study the players and learn what a Hall Of Famer looks like. What a douche. +1

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jan 9, 2007 -> 08:52 AM) I'm sorry, but Ripken and Gwynn are two of the most deserving HOFers ever. No kidding. How many steroid users have guts? I just lost a lot of respect for the Southtown.