WCSox

QUOTE(Rex Kickass @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 04:55 PM) Terrorists like Rush Limbaugh? The ACLU fights to protect the rights of Americans. You may think your rights are worthless, but plenty of us in this country disagree. I'm glad that we have an ACLU, but it's very obvious that they're often more interested in pushing a far-left political agenda than protecting the rights of Americans. QUOTE(LowerCaseRepublican @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 07:43 PM) If they're found guilty, I'll cheer. In the initial post-9/11 roundups, using the PATRIOT Act, they rounded up 5,000 people and convicted 1 (which was later overturned on appeal) So the number of terrorists caught with the PATRIOT Act remains at zero. With the specter of preventative detentions of people without charges and the 0 fer put up with the PATRIOT Act, I'm skeptical until there's a conviction reached and have healthy reason to be. Not only that but it's the good old American tradition of innocence until guilt is proven in a court of law. Regardless of whether or not the Patriot act contributed to the arrests of these (alleged) scumbags in Florida, your initial post in this thread was incredibly dismissive... Unless the Feds completely fabricated the evidence against them or obtained all of it illegally, these lowlifes are going away for a long time. I thought that would make all Americans happy, but apparently some of us feel inclined to automatically belittle the efforts of the Attorney General's office simply because they don't agree with the Patriot Act. :headshake

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 04:12 PM) Oh that's nothing. They're just oppressed Muslims looking to vent their anger at the evil, unjust, immoral, racist United States government. Now conducting wiretaps on terrorists? THATS A CRIME!!!! STOP EVIL BUSH!!!!! :rolly Seriously, it's like some of the ACLU crowd doesn't want terrorists to be exposed and prosecuted. Because we're infringing on their Constitutional rights to declare jihad on America and to obtain weapons and money from al Qaeda operatives... or something. I just don't get it.

QUOTE(LowerCaseRepublican @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 02:51 PM) Nuke, I'm just a fan of the American presumption of innocence before guilt being proven. I find it sad that people like you feel no sense of justice or optimism when terror suspects are caught red-handed by the FBI pledging allegiance to al Qaeda, declaring jihad on America, and requesting weapons and money to carry out attacks on major commerical and government centers in our country. :headshake Last time I checked, conspiracy to levy war against the United States is a pretty serious crime. :rolly They haven't had their day in court yet, but the evidence appears to be pretty damning.

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 01:57 PM) Of course you have leftists like LCR who assume that someone is harmless until he lights the fuse and the building comes crashing down. Better to catch these lowlifes while they're still planning the operation than to wait until they're on the Dan Ryan in a van full of ammonium nitrate. The indictment shows that each is facing four counts of conspiracy. They're going away for a LONG time.

QUOTE(CardsJimEdmonds15 @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 09:24 AM) The Cards have b****ed, besides Duncan? I dont see anyone b****ing.. Just a source.. big deal? They could have very well been tipping pitches but it had more to do with Mulder being injured and pitching and Marquis sucking to me.. and Reyes being awesome.. It's nice to see a fan of another team come in here and post with class. I've always thought that Cards fans were the best in baseball and people like you reinforce that belief.

We're going to have trouble beating Oswalt.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 10:16 AM) I do think it's possible that the FBI received a tip from a neighbor. I think it's far likelier than, "Bush's programs paid off all hail his wisdom!" Political spin aside, I agree.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 10:01 AM) By all means, it's a positive, but I believe my objection came in saying, "OUR WIRETAPPING AND PATRIOT ACT DID THIS!" when there are so many other likelier possibilities. It's no less probable than your assertion that the information came from an overseas informant. As I said before, it's likely that one of the neighbors simply called the FBI when the suspicious activities began. The Patriot act and/or wiretapping very well may have not played a role in this case. Then again, not all terrorists are this sloppy and conspicuous. People like McVeigh/Nichols and the Middle Eastern men who planned/carried out their respective terrorist attacks (right here in America) certainly weren't.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 09:52 AM) Watch yourself. Thank you. QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 09:53 AM) As far as this case goes, I believe that Nuke's article itself says that they were merely in the beginning stages, and that Gonzales himself has dismissed the imminence of this threat. They should be arrested and charged, to be sure. But let's not declare mission accomplished and act as if we stopped something set to happen tomorrow or even soon. This is the abortion of a young plot, not the disruption of something developed. The evidence strongly suggests that we stopped a terrorist attack in its planning stages. That's exactly what we want.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 09:18 AM) Please, don't be an idiot. Please, knock off the personal attacks. Yeah, these guys were so brilliant that they aroused the suspicions of their neighbors. Here are a few quotes from the CNN article... So, at least one of them is a known terrorist. Strike one. This is in addition to conducting military-like training activities on their own premesis. Strike two. And one had alredy broken the law. Shocking! ... and they wanted to meet with an al Qaeda operative. Strike three. Wow... At the very least, these people should be charged with conspiracy. There's more than enough evidence to justifiably hold them until their trial. If we have to wait until people like this actually obtain the explosives before making the arrests, we're not going to be able to effectively deal with terrorism.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 08:37 AM) Of course, I haven't got a single problem with the Patriot Act, but I don't like Domestic Wiretapping. My guess is so because we've caught plenty of terrorists before and broken up terrorist cells without the NSA Wiretapping Program, and without the Patriot Act. I'm sure we could very well do it again. Yep, 9/11 and Oklahoma City clearly show that we were doing just great without the Patriot Act and wire-tapping programs. :rolly And I'd bet that the neighbors simply called the FBI after they saw a bunch of people in turbans conducting "training" on their premesis in the middle of the night. Unfortunately, these morons and the shoe-bombing idiot are the exception. There are plenty of terrorists out there who have enough brain matter to carry out their plans conspicuously.

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Jun 22, 2006 -> 10:51 PM) Anyone want to venture a guess if the Patriot Act/Wiretapping played a role in this?

Sadly, this doesn't surprise me. :headshake

IMO, Nathan is the best. But Bobby cracks the Top 5... and possibly the Top 3.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 22, 2006 -> 01:37 PM) I do believe it's from the Commissioner's Office. I'm surprised that there's no word of a suspension as well. I thought that he'd get five games or so.

QUOTE(Contreras @ Jun 22, 2006 -> 10:26 AM) They're lumping in a punishment for Ozzie saying "***." They can't do anything to him about that because of the first amendment, but they can smack him down with his suspension for a previous problem. The fact that he's getting two games is a direct result of him calling Moronotti a "***." No. Off days aren't games. No, he'll get additional games for his Moronotti comments. I'm thinking that Selig will give him 5 days and a $10,000 fine, which an arbitrator will probably knock down somewhat.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jun 21, 2006 -> 07:03 PM) You know, I just can't lay off, but I'll try to make this brief, and I won't be making any promises I can't keep. LOL! I KNEW you'd respond. You're so freaking predictable, it's funny. Wow, ad hominem attacks. I'm surprised it took this long. :headshake QUOTE(Rex Kickass @ Jun 21, 2006 -> 07:40 PM) Hey, I appreciate the actual discussion that's going on behind the insults... so if you wanna keep debating without insulting each other - great. If not, stop so I don't have to lock the thread. Thanks. Unfortunately, Mr. Immaturity will have to find another debating partner.

I never argued that it was. Unfortunatley, I can't say the same for you. If you don't think that some of our nation's laws are derived from the Ten Commandments, you have no idea what the f*** you're talking about. Some. Of America's laws. Were derived. From some. Of the fundamental. Christian teachings. Get. Over. It. Recent, my ass. Some in Congress are trying to introduce a freaking Ammendment regarding gay marriage, and you say that it has "little to do with our legal system." Bulls***. And it's not a "recent development." Anti-homosexual legislature has been around forever (anti-sodomy laws being another example) and the Scripture (unfortunately) has always been used to justify it. The Christian influence in these laws is glaring and if you can't see it, you're f***ing blind. Then you also know that I wasn't referring to the freaking Pilgrims when I used the word "colonists." Yes, and those Puritans begat the colonists who eventually broke off from Britain and established America. The fact that America wasn't a theocracy after the ratification of the Constitution doesn't mean that there wasn't Christian influence in our laws. How many of our nation's elected representatives since then have been Christian? Hell, our current President has stated that his faith plays a large part in his formulation of policy. Law is derived from philosophy. And you're going to contradict yourself three quotes from now... And I supplied you with plenty examples. Like anti-gay marriage and anti-sodomy laws? What is the "secular" basis for those? But you just implied earlier that law and philosophy are two different things. Way to shoot yourself in the foot, Scooter! Did it ever occur to you that many Western philosophers were also Christian? And perhaps their faith had an impact on their philosophy? Does the name Rene Descartes ring a bell? How about Blaise Pascal? The only motive that you had was to try to win the argument with a false statement. And you failed miserably. Wrong again! You said that you thought that's what I was trying to do, despite the fact that you don't have ESP. Oh, are you REALLY done this time, Mr. Last Word??? Or are you going to come back with more illogical bulls*** and slander to try to patch up the holes I've blown through your stupid arguments? I'll believe it when I see it.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2006 -> 01:51 PM) I'm not saying that. I'm just telling you if this continues and Ozzie keeps calling people politically incorrect names and just saying whatever he wants, eventually the White Sox aren't going to be able to protect him, and their hands are going to be tied as to what they can do about it. Agreed. What's becoming evident is that when Ozzie does finally leave the Sox (hopefully 10 years and four additional WS titles later), it's going to be ugly.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jun 21, 2006 -> 11:25 AM) I am, so you know, done with this thread. Oops, I guess not! QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jun 21, 2006 -> 01:24 PM) Oh, my giddy English flag: The threat of divine justice was used to enforce laws? Back in the 1600s? I'm sorry, that doesn't count. We weren't a nation back then in any sense of the term. Maybe you don't know your history, Billy, but we didn't become a nation until the late 1700s. If certain states were using "Divine Justice" as a way to enforce laws, that's not the same as saying that this nation used divine justice to enforce laws. I was talking about Divine Justice being used to enforce laws in WESTERN SOCIETY - A LONG TIME AGO. Try reading next time, Sherlock. You just answered your own question. Nice job. How about only heterosexual marriages being recognized by state laws? Where do you suppose that one comes from? They were ALL colonists before they were Americans, Einstein. Wow, misrepresesnting my word again. I thought you would've learned your lesson by now. I've argued throughout this thread that our nation is based in large part on Judeo-Christian PHILOSPHY. I never argued that it's a Christian Theocracy. Our laws are descended from the laws of Western society SEVERAL centuries ago. The historical laws of Western society are rooted in what is taught in the Judeo-Christian tradition. Do you see the connection now? No, YOU assigned a motive to MY post about me supposedly "wanting" you to be an Atheist. Grow up.

QUOTE(aboz56 @ Jun 21, 2006 -> 01:24 PM) If Guillen got fired I can guarantee that Mariotti would probably have to go into seclusion. Absolutely. No doubt that he'd get death threats (unfortunately) and (fortunately) would have to move out of town.

Not that the Yankees and Red Sox cheerleaders in Bristol would have a vested interest in disrupting the Sox or anything.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jun 21, 2006 -> 10:57 AM) We're just about done here, Skip. If you're making the argument that "divine justice" is what we used to enforce our laws then you're off the deep end. Divine justice is the teaching that God could pardon sin by a mere act of will, and without any satisfaction to his justice i.e. without an atonement. Yeah, that's what our legal system was and is based on. You're missing the point... again. The threat of Divine Justice WAS used to enforce laws a loooong time ago. Many of our nation's current laws are based on what is taught in The Bible. There's no denying that. The colonists who later founded our nation were also overwhelmingly Christian. Sounds like you need a history lesson, Scooter. The influence of Christianity in our nation also goes beyond law. The most obvious example would be Christmas being a Federal holiday. How many vacation days do the Chinese and Saudis get for Christmas? Obviously, not ALL of our legal system is rooted in Christianity. Even someone like you can figure that out on your own. No problem with the Jefferson part, but you claiming that me WANTING you to be an atheist is beyond stupid. It's dishonest and childish.

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Jun 21, 2006 -> 10:41 AM) Bad news? I would love for the Tigers to make that trade. I can stand a half a year from a declining John Smoltz if it gets the next 5 years of Zumaya out of the AL. Smoltz is not what he used to be. A move to the AL would show this even more. Sure the Tigers improve for this season, but they lose a lot for the long run. Zumaya is special. Smoltz is still a very solid pitcher and is going to be better down the stretch than, say, Verlander who hasn't pitched anywhere near 200 innings in a single season. If I'm Mike Illitch and my team is still on pace to win 108 games at this time next month, I push my GM to make this deal. Even if guys like Verlander, Bonderman, Shelton, and Rodney continue to develop at their current pace, they might not have another season like this for a while. It would be a great move from a PR persepective as well. Remember that this team hasn't had a winning season since 1993. Trading for Smoltz would clearly show the fans that the Tigers are interested in winning NOW.