WCSox

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 16, 2010 -> 06:18 PM) You guys do realize catcher is a pretty important position. There is a lot more involved than an .850 OPS. If you can't throw the ball back to the pitcher, you cannot catch. Tyler Flowers, God bless him, but if you call him up and suddenly he's not ready defensively and Peavy and Danks and Buerhle and Floyd and Garcia don't like throwing to him, its over. They will never want to throw to him. Last year it was get Thome out of here, get Contreras out of here things will be so much better. Funny how they are doing fine but the White Sox are not. It will be exactly the same if and when the Sox dump AJP. He is way more important than his batting average. I completely agree about AJ's value. That said, it makes zero sense to give a multi-year deal to a catcher who will be 34 next year and sports a career .749 OPS. If they can get him to accept a one-year deal, that would be fine with me. But this is his last chance to get a multi-year deal, so he's probably not going that route. It most likely won't matter what Peavy, Danks, Buehrle, or Floyd think of AJ's replacement. Because if the Sox aren't competitive next year, half of them won't finish the year in Chicago.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 15, 2010 -> 03:25 PM) About 80 of Jones PA have been as an OF. Given that Quentin is made of glass and that Pierre isn't hitting, I don't see that as a negative. I'd much rather that Jones spell these guys than Kotsay. Going out and getting one bat isn't going to change anything. Hell, not going out and getting TWO bats probably won't turn them into contenders, either. Not with Beckham, AJ, and Pierre not hitting. And not with Floyd, and Jenks consistently crapping their pants, and Buehrle and Peavy being wildly-erratic. Trading for somebody like Matsui at the deadline would cost them money and not deliver what they're looking for. Kind of like last summer, but not nearly as severe. If the Sox are still playing like this a year from now, it's going to be time for some MAJOR changes. That would mean selling off guys like Peavy and Buehrle for high-level prospects, bringing up Hudson, Flowers, and D2 and, perhaps most importantly, tossing out the coaching staff (minus Cooper).

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 15, 2010 -> 01:26 PM) DH is a huge problem. The rotating DH has been a total failure. Vizquel and Kotsay certainly have been. Then again, the rotating DH has also allowed Jones to have 111 PAs and has kept Kotsay out of the outfield for 10 games. I agree that the rotating DH is a stupid idea, but it's difficult to call it a "total failure" with the season that Jones is having.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 15, 2010 -> 09:12 AM) The White Sox had ample opportunity to add offense this past offseason, yet passed. Now they are looking for offense. They can wait the proverbial 60 games to realize they don't have enough, but it may be too late by then. Its time JR, KW and OG realized they need better hitters and get better hitters to Chicago ASAP. Status quo isn't going to work This most likely has more to do with what JR and the Board of Directors are willing to spend at this point than bad philosophy. As I've been saying for over a year now, they're not going to continue investing $95M+ in a third-place team with declining gate revenue. It's still a little early to seriously consider a firesale, but PK and AJP are the most likely candidates if they decide to go that route. And it's very possible that they keep PK and give him a contract extension. It's not like there will be anybody else in-house to replace his production next year.

Back in March, many here (including myself) said that the Sox are relying *very* heavily on Quentin, and they're screwed offensively if he has a bad year. Even with PK and Jones playing out of their minds, that's pretty much been the case. CQ is one of those guys who you keep through the arb-eligible years and let somebody else over-pay for when he hits free agency. Even if he has another 2008-like year, his erratic swing and health make him a massive liability in a multi-year deal.

Thornton's lack of a good offspeed pitch that he can consistently throw for strikes bothers me. That said, it's difficult to argue with his results.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 10, 2010 -> 02:09 PM) Here's another way to look at it. If we get to July and we're still 10+ games out of the race...either Thornton or Putz are both more valuable as trade-chips if they have 10 saves under their belt than if they don't have any. My guess is that the Sox want to pick up Thornton's $3M team option, and that they look to deal Putz in that scenario. Moving Putz to closer also makes sense, given the success that he's had there in the past. No guarantee that he'll succeed there now (he hasn't looked very good so far), but selling him as a closer would make sense if they have nothing to play for by July.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ May 10, 2010 -> 01:11 PM) $1M becomes a very big deal when your attendance is tanking. Even a half million dollars is a big deal to any business.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 10, 2010 -> 12:37 PM) By the deadline, if you're willing to give him up for nothing and pick up all but $1 million of his salary, that might be do-able. But let's not pretend we're getting anything useful back. In terms of prospects, of course we're not getting anything of value in return. But that $1 million can pay a lot of expenses and employee salaries.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 10, 2010 -> 12:24 PM) If your team picks up most of that salary...like we did with Contreras and Thome. Recouping *some* of Bobby salary is better than recouping none.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 10, 2010 -> 11:04 AM) Well, if Jose Contreras as his ancient age can be dominant in the NL, it's always possible for Jenks too. If Jose Contreras and his large salary were traded at the waiver deadline last year, it's always possible for Jenks too.

QUOTE (Chet Kincaid @ May 10, 2010 -> 09:52 AM) No I mean cut bait as far as leaving him in the closer role. The Sox weren't able to get anything for him in the off season, so I know they couldn't get anything for him right now. Oh, I'd be fine with that. That said, I imagine that Ozzie stays with him for at least a couple more weeks.

QUOTE (Chet Kincaid @ May 10, 2010 -> 09:08 AM) Right. Bobby has been a question mark since last season when Coop came out against fans that were booing him at the Cell. I think it's time to cut bait. That would be a bad idea. He's untradeable right now and you'd still have to pay his salary if you DFA'd him. Since he has two options remaining, it'd be a lot smarter to send him down to the minors to work things out. If he gets his command back and can pitch effectively a month from now, it's possible that some team picks up the last month or two of his contract.

QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ May 9, 2010 -> 07:15 PM) Just to play Devil's advocate (b/c I wouldn't mind Santos pitching the 9th) but he has only pitched 42 innings in his ENTIRE PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL CAREER. That's really all that needs to be said. But I am cool with it still. EDITED for 42 innings. I agree. Santos will likely be the eventual closer, but he won't be put in that situation now. Especially with Thornton and Putz at their disposal. Right or wrong, I think that Bobby holds onto the closer role for at least a couple more weeks. Ozzie tends to give veterans a lot of slack. Sometimes too much slack (like JD last summer).

QUOTE (soxfan-kwman @ May 6, 2010 -> 01:32 PM) Big Frank is the biggest jerk in person. I saw him in Vegas before too, 2004 & he was on crutches, & he wouldn't take 10 seconds to take a picture... What a Dumb Idiot Careless person King of the Walks!!! When I saw him in 2004 it was still in season & couldn't be anymore stand-offish. Like I said, he was on crutches & apparently doing rehab out in Vegas. Of course during the 2005 season when he could no longer play, he was in the dugout & on the bus with the team. I'm so happy this entitled --- ---- never got to play in the World Series! That guy has something wrong with him. He just can't take the time to be a decent guy. I've seen him blow fans off after the games in the parking lot time, after time. This guy could have this city love him, but he just can't for whatever reason!!! He must still be bitter about the 2000 playoffs & the 0-13 he hit in three games against the Mariners. Frank happily signed a jersey for my sister at a game in Toronto about 12 years ago. He's far from a jerk to fans.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ May 6, 2010 -> 12:39 PM) What do good on-base % and Mark Teahen have to do with one another? Teahen has a career .331 OBP. Not great, but not bad either.

QUOTE (Tex @ May 6, 2010 -> 10:35 AM) Criticize all you want. So if you could retire tomorrow, would you state under what conditions you would return, or just let employers guess? Pro athletes employ these people called agents, whose sole function is to negotiate contracts with prospective employers.

QUOTE (Tex @ May 5, 2010 -> 03:11 PM) If you could retire today, would you work for any amount of money just to be working? I sure as hell wouldn't go to the media and tell them that I want X amount of money and demand to play a position that I clearly no longer have the skills to play. I must've missed the memo about us not being allowed to criticize players who say incredibly dumb things to reporters. Are we not allowed to criticize JD for hitting near the Mendoza Line for half of last season (and then blaming it on Kenny for acquiring Rios) while collecting $11 million as well?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 5, 2010 -> 11:44 AM) Let's come to a happy medium of $7? Unless we think Viciedo is ready (he's not currently, who knows by Sept.) we're going to need to put someone in 1b next year. There are some names who are FA...Pena, Berkman, who would be good fits as well, maybe even give more offense, but they're also likely to cost more than that and could perhaps also demand longer contracts. Hell, we're going to need somebody who can swing the stick next year. With Jones leaving as a FA, you're looking at Rios, Beckham, Quentin, and Alexei to carry the offense. I imagine that Beckham picks up his game as he develops, but the latter two are massive question marks. Give PK a 2-3 year extension and bring in a cheap, short-term DH next winter. If Viciedo is ready in 2012, Paulie can move to DH.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ May 4, 2010 -> 03:49 PM) Why is that inning total a bad thing? Is there a magic number where someone's arm is going to fall off or something? Because I don't see it. I see a durable guy who is a much safer bet than the majority of pitchers out there. Pitcher contracts are always a huge risk but you have to give them out. Mark is a guy who I'd feel comfortable giving an extension to. I haven't looked at the numbers or anything, but I think Mark's FB velocity could be the result of a lot more cutters No, it's not. Mark routinely threw 89-91 five years ago. Now his four-seamer is more like 87-89. The year after the WS, it was more like 86. That's what age and heavy use do to a pitcher's arm. And while I won't argue that Mark's going to tear his labrum or rotator cuff any time soon, the risk obviously increases with increased use. And even if we accept the premise that Mark is the next Tom Glavine and his arm troubles won't manifest until his 40's, his arm strength and durability will, at best, diminish slightly as he approaches his mid-30s. Since it's unlikely that his command will improve significantly over that time (it can't get much better than it already is), it's difficult for me to believe that he's going to pitch any better than he has over the past three years. So we're looking at either more of the average of the past few years or a slight decline. And that's a best-case scenario. And there's the rub. Is Mark going to be affordable to a fourth-place team with a couple of expensive starting pitchers, good under-30 starting pitching, dwindling attendance, and a dire need for a couple of free-agent bats? On a team like the Yankees, probably. On the Sox, he very well may be the odd man out.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ May 4, 2010 -> 02:08 PM) There is, and with anyone else on this team I could see that argument. But Mark has done things here that put him at a level above every other player on this team, and in this instance, that $7M saved isn't worth all the bad publicity and hurt feelings of diehard fans. In reality, sayings like, "the bottom line is all that matters" and "any publicity is good publicity" don't stand very long. I love Blackjack, but seriously, there's no comparison between the two. Blackjack got a Cy Young, but it's a lot easier to do that than set a MLB record for batters retired, bring home a WS ring, start an All-Star game, pick up a WS save, throw a no-no, throw a perfect game, win a gold glove, and pretty much serve as the face of the organization. No comparison. And I really, really do not think the Sox would trade Buehrle especially after what they witnessed in 2007, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that. I think you're looking waaaaaaaaaaay too far ahead, even though it doesn't seem too far ahead. Let's see how we do this year. If we go far in the playoffs, and aside from the hate a lot of Sox and Bulls fans have for JR, it's pretty clear that JR wants to win, so extending them all may be a very real possibility. Check out the costs of the 2006 rotation and get back to me as far as the rotation costs. That was an expensive staff, and we had McCarthy who back then was a lot higher on the national scene rankings than Hudson is now. How is Mark not a $14M pitcher? I really don't want to have this discussion because I posted a bunch of stuff on pitcher contracts before when this came up. I've proven that Buehrle is on a bargain contract before and I don't feel like doing it again. Coming to the AL and pitching in the Cell, and putting up those numbers over that many innings gets you that kind of money. That's just the reality of it. Mark is actually cheap because he doesn't throw 95. If Mark put up the same ERA and IP and WHIP as a lefty with that health record while throwing 95 he'd be making $18M+ now guaranteed. I disagree completely that Mark won't have another great year. What makes you say that? How can you say that as a Sox fan who has watched him pitch here his entire career? It should be apparent that Mark is a cerebral lefty who knows how to pitch with limited stuff, and who is also a workhorse who can stay healthy all year, and who also is a big game pitcher who just so happened to no-hit and throw a perfecto against two of the toughest offenses in baseball to do those things against. It should be very clear just how great Mark is - notice I said great, not good or very good. Mark has been a great pitcher. I disagree with you in three basic areas... (1) You are obviously a huge Mark Buehrle fan. But I don't believe that your fondness for Mark is representative of the average Sox fan. Most Sox fans know that Mark's been pitching here for a while, he was a huge part of them winning a WS, and he's pitched some absolutely phenomenal games, but the Sox haven't won squat since they re-signed him three years ago and it seems unlikely that they're going to win again with him. He was part of a great team, but that era has come to an end. (2) I strongly disagree that trading Mark in the middle of a bad 2011 season would irritate the average fan that much more than keeping him on the roster through September and letting him walk as a FA. There may be organizational benefit one way or the other, depending on who Mark would agree to be traded to and what that team would be willing to give up. From the fan's perspective, the result is the same: The Sox don't make the playoffs. I just don't see the massive PR backlash that you're envisioning. Of course, trading Mark in the middle of a competitive 2011 season would be disasterous (see: Alvarez, Wilson), and I think that we agree there. (3) Mark hasn't been a "great" pitcher for the duration of a full season since 2005. You can say what you want about the no-hitter and the perfect game, but his seasonal numbers since then have ranged from "very good" to "mediocre." Mark's also lost about 2 mph from his fastball since '05. Given all of that, I think it's unlikely that he has another 2001- or 2005-like year. I also think it's highly unlikely that he's a legit Cy Young candidate again. It is likely that he continues to post "really good" numbers for the next couple of years (120 ERA+, 1.25 WHIP, etc.), which is why I believe that he's a "really good" pitcher. But not a "great" pitcher. I agree that Mark's 4/56 deal back in '07 was great for the time (especially considering what Zito got), but (1) the market has changed significantly since then, (2) Mark's numbers have declined somewhat since (in comparison to his previous contract), and (3) he'll be 33 with 2,500 innings on his arm in his first year or free agency. When you've already committed large sums to Peavy and Floyd, with the potential for another big-money deal with Danks, I don't see the point in investing more than 3/36 in Mark. Just my opinion, and we can agree to disagree on it. For what it's worth, I hope that Mark goes off this year, rescues this sinking ship of a team, and makes me look like a fool. But I'm not betting on it.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ May 4, 2010 -> 01:15 PM) I'll give you that point. But really, I was just talking to someone last week about Ventura walking. And Ventura isn't Buehrle. If we trade Mark it will turn out to be one of those moves that define the organization as cheap, petty, heartless, etc. for a long time to a lot of people. For your second point, let's look at this logically. What does 1/2 season of Mark Buehrle get us in trade? Remember in 2007 when Mark was on the verge of being traded? Remember the crowds chanting his name? Remember all the backlash? And remember the Boston talks involving Justin Masterson or Michael Bowden as the centerpieces since they wouldn't include Clay Buccholz? L-O-f***ing-L at trading a pitcher and a franchise piece like Mark and then the ensuing backlash for either of those players. Give me the draft picks and, from a PR standpoint, the peace of mind that comes with knowing Buehrle walked. I will bet almost anything that the Sox do not trade Buehrle. Actually, if anyone at all on this site wants to bet me, I will do a sig bet with anyone here that if the Sox trade Buehrle you can control my sig and avatar for as long as you see fit, no matter how long. And in return all I'd ask is that, when I win the bet, the loser of the bet write a 5-page discourse on how much Mark Buehrle means to the city of Chicago and the Sox organization as a whole. So if anyone wants to take me up on that bet let me know, because it's a cakewalk for me. Edit: Anyway, the point is, at least since I've been alive, we've never dealt anyone like Mark. We let Robin and Frank walk, that's it. But I really think trading Mark would be a s***storm, and because of that I don't hink it's going to happen, and I don't think the payoff would be worth it. The difference in value in terms of deadline deals for 1/2 seasons vs. the value of draft picks isn't necessarily that significant, and actually the draft picks could turn out better than anything we'd get in trade. A half-season of Mark Buehrle saves us about $7M. I'm not advocating that route, but there is tangible financial benefit for dealing him in the middle of a bad season, just a few months before his contract expires. I don't agree that trading Mark would be nearly the "s*** storm" that you think it will. This would not be the first time that the Sox traded a highly-successful, fan-favorite starting pitcher (see: McDowell, Jack), and I'm pretty sure that they'd do it again if they felt that the benefits outweighed the downside of upsetting a few overly-sentimental fans who are still clinging to 2005. I don't think that your comparison with the fan reaction in 2007 is applicable, as the fans clamoring for his return were less than two years removed from a championship. The Sox have sucked since 2008 and if they continue to suck through this time next year, it's highly unlikely that you'll see numerous "Re-sign Mark" signs at the Cell. That era died last season, and the vast majority of the 2005 team aren't in the organization anymore. If Mark actually wants to continue pitching past 2011, the question then becomes: Buehrle or Danks? Realistically, signing both to extensions makes little sense with Peavy and Floyd under contract through at least 2012 (both have 2013 options), Hudson nearly ready to pitch in the bigs, and a glaring lack of offensive talent that will almost certainly have to be addressed through free agency. The Sox can't afford a $50M starting rotation. If the Sox can convince Danks to sign a reasonable four- or five-year extension, I'd probably go with him. Mark will be 33 in his first year of free agency and will have about 2,500 innings on his arm. If Danks did walk and Mark was open to an extension, it would be nice to bring him back, but I don't think that he's a $14M/year pitcher anymore. And that's a problem because he already signed a deal that was WELL below what the FA market would've given him back in 2007. Asking him to re-sign for, say, 3/30 would almost be an insult. But it would be stupid for the Sox to give him a 3/45 deal when it appears highly unlikely that he's not going to have a 2005- or 2001-type season again. So I have a really difficult time seeing how Mark fits into the Sox's post-2011 plans.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ May 4, 2010 -> 12:37 PM) And I'm sure I could go on. Trading Buehrle is the type of move that will have Sox fans b****ing for the next 20+ years. Let the motherf***er walk if he's going to and take the draft picks. And that's IF. For all we know, Mark will sign a 3/$36M extension or something of the sort at the end of his current deal, and then go on to be just as successful as he's been for us thus far right on through that next commitment. This is hyperbole. Sox fans aren't going to be happy if the Sox aren't competitive... period. If they're playing sub-.500 baseball next July, the difference between trading Mark 2/3 of the way through a lost season vs. letting Mark walk as a free agent two months later is minimal.

He may have been slightly overpaid, but not excessively so. As has been mentioned earlier, his intangibles make up for a lot of that. It'll be interesting to see what happens next year, with both PK and Jones being FAs. With Jones not likely to re-sign and CQ appearing unlikely to put up 2008 numbers regularly (or even once again), there will be a dire need for more offense, and it's unlikely to come from within the organization. Does Kenny give PK a three-year extension at a lower yearly salary, or does he go after FAs?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 4, 2010 -> 09:20 AM) Some other positives. We are something like 2nd in the AL in homers Crazy. How many people would've predicted that a month ago?