WCSox

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 18, 2010 -> 09:36 AM) Two years, versus what 15 or so for Mo? I'm not equating Papelbon to Rivera. Just saying that Papelbon in his (brief) prime was equally dominant.

Good God, these guys are ignorant.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 17, 2010 -> 11:40 PM) In the blink of an eye. The Twins have had outstanding infield defense over the past 3-5 years to go along with generally good outfield defense, though this past year was obviously a different story for them. The White Sox have not been nearly as good. Thus, Matt Guerrier's ERA and WHIP will look better compared to Jenks. Jenks still has much better stuff and still has the ability to be a dominant force out of the bullpen. I don't think you ever look at Matt Guerrier and think "dominant." While I agree that the Twins have usually had better defense than the Sox over the past five years, it's silly to argue that's the reason that Guerrier's numbers are so much better than Bobby's. Guerrier's numbers are better because he's pitched more effectively - plain and simple. Javy Vazquez has better stuff than Mark Buehrle and, well, you know how far that got him. Bobby's superior stuff doesn't mean crap if he can't throw an offspeed pitch for a strike. I still think that this is a silly argument, as Linebrink obviously faced his share of quality hitters after losing the setup role. But while we're on the topic of "high leverage" situations, Bobby's done a pretty freaking poor job of keeping hitters off base in them over the past couple of years. And that doesn't bode well for somebody who is expected to hold a lead in a closer or setup role. I agree that Bobby still has the potential to be effective, so it'll be interesting to see how things play out for him. I'm not terribly optimistic, but I hope that he proves me wrong and earns that $12M.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 17, 2010 -> 05:10 PM) Yep. I just wonder how Greinke would fare under that big of a spotlight. Yeah, no kidding. Having experienced Javy Vazquez's lack of fortitude *twice* in New York, I'd imagine that Cashman would be hesitant to pursue him.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 17, 2010 -> 09:32 PM) There is no Mariano Rivera. He's a wonder to behold. The greatest relief pitcher to ever live. Can't hold anybody to that standard. He compared favorably for a while... 2006: 0.776 WHIP, 517 ERA+ 2007: 0.771 WHIP, 257 ERA+

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 17, 2010 -> 09:24 PM) I think you are very, very wrong on pretty much all accounts. So, again, why would Epstein want two years of Jenks as a setup man, rather than three years of Guerrier for the same price? Would YOU take Bobby over Guerrier? I sure as hell wouldn't. Perhaps I'm overlooking something obvious, but this doesn't make any sense. Are you suggesting that Linebrink only faced utility players when the score was 20-3 in the 6th inning? Or are you arguing that closers always face the top/middle of the order in the 9th inning? Jenks also got hit pretty hard in 2006 and 2009, so this isn't a new phenomenon. I don't believe in prolonged luck. If you're posting a 1.28 and 1.37 WHIP as a closer over consecutive seasons, your problem isn't bad luck. It's bad pitching. Yeah, except for all of those fans and sports writers who realize that Crawford and Gonzalez can't pitch... and that pitching separates playoff teams from mediocre teams. You can say a lot about Red Sox fans, but they tend to have a better understanding of their team and the game than others. They're not Cubs fans.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 17, 2010 -> 09:05 PM) Oh c'mon now. Papelboner makes me sick. He had a down year and might get drastically overpaid real soon. But can he still pitch being up for debate? Let's not get crazy now. I'm not suggesting that his career is over or anything crazy like that, but he's not exactly a lock to put up Rivera-like numbers from here on out. And that's pretty much what they expect over there.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 17, 2010 -> 08:51 PM) Well considering they signed Crawford and traded for AGon, I'm not really buying that they needed to sign Jenks to excite the fans... Crawford and AGon can't pitch, and whether Papelbon still can at this point is debatable. So I think that there is a need on Epstein's part to show people that he's "doing something" about the bullpen. I don't know if that's what's actually happening or not, but that logic makes more sense than signing Jenks over somebody like Guerrier for the same price.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 17, 2010 -> 08:38 PM) No offense, but I think we should probably defer a bit to the Red Sox brain trust a bit here. Meh, teams make moves for all kinds of reasons. Pat Gillick is no dummy, yet he's the guy who moved two really good pitching prospects for a clearly declining (and expensive) Freddy Garcia a few years ago. I agree that Bobby will be a lot closer to a semi-decent setup man than a Linebrink-like gas can. I wish him well, and hope that he surprises me.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 17, 2010 -> 03:21 PM) He's still got 3 potential plus pitches (Hey! Alliteration!), and Curt Young is a pretty solid pitching coach. To say that everything points to Bobby as being a "mop-up guy" seems to me to be a bit of an exaggeration. It is, but only a slight one. Bobby's WHIP was actually higher than Linebrink's last year. It shows me that Theo Epstein (1) has way too much money to play with and (2) seems more interested in placating his team's fan base and media with a recognizable veteran than acquiring somebody who is likely to put up a $6M performance in 2011. Bobby's been trending downward for the past three seasons (with his last two being below-average), and it's difficult to believe that Epstein expects to get anything near "elite" out of Jenks. I'd imagine that Epstein would be thrilled if Jenks put up a 1.27 WHIP as a setup man next year. This appears to be as much about PR as shoring up the Red Sox bullpen.

Bobby has conditioning issues, he's battled numerous injuries over the past couple of years, his WHIP has ballooned since 2008, and he doesn't throw nearly as hard as he used to. Everything points to him being a mop-up guy making the veteran league minimum a year from now, so I'm not following Epstein's decision to throw $12M at him. I'm thankful for everything that Bobby's done for the ChiSox and wish him nothing but the best. But I just don't see this ending well. Especially in Boston, where the term "unforgiving" is probably the nicest way to characterize the fan base.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 14, 2010 -> 11:45 AM) No, it's not what I'm implying. I'm just saying that I don't think the 2008 turnaround was due to him suddenly becoming smarter, it was probably that something clicked physically first, and that he's learned how to attack hitters from there. Could be a combination of adjusting mechanics and something clicking mentally. Guys like Lee, Buehrle, and Danks - who are all somewhat lacking in raw stuff - seem to excel because they've mastered those two things.

QUOTE (Mattchoo @ Dec 12, 2010 -> 08:00 PM) MB is going no where unless he is traded to St Louis. My proposal is the following: MB for Colby Rasmus. Throw in CQ and Sale and they might listen. Mark didn't help his trade value last season, and I don't see anybody giving up anything at this point that would make the Sox a better team in 2011.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 26, 2010 -> 02:02 PM) Like it or not...he's a significant upgrade. He's not a $4 million a year upgrade so feel free to complain about that contract...but he's a much better option than Kotsay. That's an expensive utility player. My first thought is that Kenny would look to deal him, but I don't see that happening without eating some of that contract... in which case, they may as well just hang onto him.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 22, 2010 -> 05:08 PM) Ozzie is making this a public showdown. If he really wants to stay here, I think he's making a huge mistake. As people say its a lot easier to can a manager than the players, its also easier to can a manager than a GM if you consider yours competent which I believe JR does. Hahn can't get the GM job while Ozzie is managing because Oney called Hahn names and believes you need to play the game professionally (I suppose like he did) to know the game and have the Guillen family's respect. I'm sure that's not Oney's original thought. He got it from his dad. I hope that it turns out this way. I'll take Kenny over Ozzie for a few reasons: (1) Kenny is better at his job than Ozzie is at his (2) Kenny's job is more difficult to fill than Ozzie's (3) Ozzie and his obnoxious family are the culpable ones in this feud That said, I'm not sure that I share DA's optimism. I could easily envision a scenario where JR does nothing because he doesn't want to pick sides, Ozzie continues to act like an ass, and Kenny reaches the end of his rope and says, "f*** it, I'm done with this dysfunctional organization." Not sure that I agree with this. Most of LaRussa's value is tied up in Duncan, and going from Cooper to Duncan is a marginal improvement at best. And while LaRussa is obviously way more mature than Ozzie, it's not like he's completely lacking in baggage either. Going from Ozzie/Coop to LaRussa/Duncan would definitely be an overall improvement but, since I put a lot more value on the pitching coach than the manager, I don't see it as a huge improvement. I'd rather keep Coop around and bring in a younger manager with something to prove, who doesn't sport the "I managed a team to a ring, so I know best" attitude.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Sep 17, 2010 -> 07:56 AM) The Twins are 42-16 since the break. You can't win em all, tip your cap to the f***ing insane-o-twins. Yeah, pretty much. The Sox are roughly what I thought they'd be back in March: An 85-ish win team that had a chance to take the division if they could play like a 90-win team and if the Twins faltered. Obviously, that's not going to happen this year. As for assigning blame, I have a hard time putting it all on Kenny. Yeah, the Sox didn't have a legit DH going into the season, but their problems have been so numerous this year that's it's pretty much a moot point. Like last year, he put this team in a position to win and the players didn't respond. (Though, to their credit, they played a hell of a lot harder this season.) If Kenny's responsible or anything, it's relying on dinosaurs like JD and Man-ram because the farm system hasn't produced an elite bat since the Schueler era. So if we want to fire Kenny based on the farm system, that's a legit argument. Other than that, I think that he's done a good job of fielding competitive teams.

QUOTE (Frank_Thomas35 @ Aug 27, 2010 -> 11:06 PM) Manny was held out of tonights lineup because of matchup reasons. This is the second day in a row and now Dodgers beat writer tweeted this: dylanohernandez Torre said that because he might want to start the same lineup from tonight's game, #Manny could sit again tomorrow. #Dodgers 10 minutes ago Pretty weird/suspicious that Torre would announce this tonight. Even more so cause they Dodgers need wins and Manny would be a key piece to that in their estimation. Something is fishy, real fishy with this Whole thing. I'm starting to think Manny wants out and is holding out to get moved. Maybe not, I may be reading too much into it. Manny has been known to piss off others in the dugout, and it's possible that he and Torre aren't getting along. (I haven't followed the Dodgers at all this year, so I had no idea.) Regardless, if Manny is being held out for a reason other than injury, I'm pretty sure that he'll be in a Sox uni by the middle of next week.

QUOTE (justBLAZE @ Aug 27, 2010 -> 01:36 PM) About $3M in deferred salary from what I know. QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 27, 2010 -> 01:38 PM) However, I believe that money would have to be set aside this season. Thanks. It's a gamble (is he even healthy yet?), but $7M isn't too ridiculous, as long as they don't give a top prospect in return.

QUOTE (longshot7 @ Aug 27, 2010 -> 12:44 PM) LOL. People who are against PEDs are such hypocrites. How many of you don't speed in your cars or look for loopholes when doing your taxes? Sure, it's okay to cheat on some things and not others. What bs.... Except that exploiting loopholes in one's tax returns is completely legal. Bad comparison. I don't have time to read all 100+ pages of this. Do the Sox owe Manny anything after this season?

This would be great, but we're still going to need an effective bullpen if we want to win the Central.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 16, 2010 -> 10:54 AM) It's not "The" major reason. It is definitely "A" major reason. I don't know what your definition of "A major reason" is, but I'd say that it's not even in the top 3, and possibly not even the top 5. Predictability vs. surprise doesn't change the end result, though. Major factors are major factors, whether they're the result of bad luck or poor design. I absolutely agree that Kotsay in the lineup when Teahen should be is inexcusable. That said, it won't matter much if our bullpen can't hold a lead.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 16, 2010 -> 10:27 AM) OTOH...we're 2 games out. Our record doesn't need to be all that much different for it to be a huge difference in the standings. Pretty much. Thome and Damon both have a WAR of around 2, while Kotsay and Jones roughly cancel each other out with an approximate WAR of 0. So we'd be ~1 game out instead of 3 games out right now, if you think that WAR is an accurate metric. True, but implying that the rotating DH is the major reason for this team being in second place ignores the bigger (and more accurate) picture.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Aug 16, 2010 -> 09:42 AM) Not saying anything about last year, but some of Ozzie's decision making has been responsible for losses this year. You can say that for half of the managers/teams in the league. Sure, but you're talking about ONE position. How about our LF, RF, C, and 2B not being able to hit and 2/5 of our rotation sucking for the first two months of the season? How about Jenks not being effective for much of the season? How about Freddy and Putz being horrible lately? The truth is that we could've had Thome or Damon at DH and our record wouldn't be all that much different. Because this team's problems have extended FAR beyond the DH position.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Aug 16, 2010 -> 09:05 AM) I disagree, but that's what the board is all about...discussions. I believe that the DH position has been an issue, and Ozzie has made some bad decisions when it comes to lineups because of that. Mark Kotsay getting as many at bats as he has (and in the 5 hole quite often) is not a recipe for a lot of wins. Look at the batting averages of the two guys (Jones and Kotsay) that were supposed to be our DH's. Not good. Ozzie/Wise/Nix are no more responsible for the Sox tanking last season than Ozzie/Kotsay/Jones are for the Sox playing poorly over the past week. In both cases, a bad bullpen hurt the team a lot more.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Aug 15, 2010 -> 06:19 PM) I can't figure it out. This year it seems like the lack of a real DH and the sometimes baffling managing decisions by Ozzie are finally catching up with them. The long run of great baseball was probably a lot of over acheiving. People need to stop playing this card. The Sox have been bad over the past week because the same players that dominated the league for the past two months haven't been executing. It's as simple as that.