Lillian

With the exception of the collusion scenario, I still don't understand how the Sox could not still be covertly involved. No one has yet to offer a plausible explanation for why the front office would have made such obvious and publicized overtures toward Harper, when this year's free agency began, and then suddenly bow out of their earlier pursuit of a marquee star. Hahn may be some of the things which we accuse him of, but he isn't stupid. This still does not make sense to me. The only thing that explain it would be that the Sox colluded with Middleton, and promised not to pursue Harper. Otherwise, I have to think that they are still in this thing, albeit as quietly and surrepticiously, as possible.

I'm with you, as long as they would indeed release Jay. I'd rather have Span in center, than Jay, but not both of them.

Regarding this notion that we shouldn't be following this Harper free agency, because we are only setting ourselves up for another huge disappointment, I have a completely different perspective. My interest in these details is not merely to know whether, or not, the Sox acquire at least one super star, out of this crazy off season. I really want to know what kind of an organization it is, to which I have given my allegiance, as a fan. Is the owner really not interested in winning, but only in making money? Is Hahn really disingenuous and, or incompetent? The answer to those questions can only be discerned with some knowledge of how these negotiations are being conducted. So, here I am, still following "Harper's Folly". Don't waste your breath, cautioning me not to set myself up, to have my heart broken. At this point, I don't care as much about acquiring Harper, as I do about acquiring some understanding of what the Hell is going on, here!

"CWSpalehose" expressed his suspicion that Middleton and Reinsdorf have colluded, by agreeing that the Sox would not pursue Harper, if the Phillies promised not to pursue Machado. That scenario is intriguing because it provides a plausible explanation for, what otherwise is their inexplicable abandonment of their determined attempts to sign Harper. I've been reading the rules regarding MLB collusion. They are not the clearest, or easiest set of rules to understand. Would a "gentlemen's agreement" between 2 owners, regarding their respective player acquisition targets, clearly be considered collusion? It's one thing to conspire regarding limiting the length, or value, of contracts, but quite another for one owner to simply say, I won't pursue X, if you won't pursue Y. Is there a legal mind here, who could clarify this issue?

And if he turned down that offer, I would not fault management. However, not even trying remains completely perplexing.

Boras probably won't let him sign for anything less than what Machado got. He will talk Harper into holding out for a record deal.

They wouldn't dare. They can't be that stupid.

I'm sorry, but I can't encourage anyone to boo the players. I still like the idea of making signs, to hold up at the games. It would be interesting and might be effective to have fans get into making creative signs, with appropriate messages. But, please cheer for the players, and let them know that we understand that it's not their fault.

Our players have nothing to do with this failure of management and ownership. Please don't take out any well deserved anger on them. Think of anyway you can to take it out on those who deserve it. Perhaps holding up signs, in the stands, with creative messages would help a little. Messages such as; "WE LOVE OUR PLAYERS, BUT NOT MANAGEMENT". Or; "HOW DO WE DFA THE FRONT OFFICE?" Or; "TRADE HAHN & K. W. FOR PRELLER". The TV cameras will never show them, but the fans will see them and it might catch on. It would be great to see lots of fans coming up with good digs, at the ones who deserve it.

It is possible that they did indeed collude, as you suspect. If so, that is yet another scenario which would net the same result of causing most fans to be disgruntled, now having to add crooked to the list of disparaging adjectives to describe ownership and the front office. Being disingenuous, inept and obtuse is bad enough. Crooked would simply be the last straw. It took almost a century to cleanse the legacy of the Black Sox, and this would just harken back to all of that infamous history. I'm still hoping that there is some outcome here that would exonerate ownership and the front office. I'm afraid that a scenario which includes collusion would fall far short of doing that. I hope that it's not true, but your insightful suspicion would explain why the Sox would not now be pursuing Harper. The best outcome is the Sox signing Harper. That seems to be the only way to fix this mess.

This analysis seems plausible, with the one exception being the acquisition of Jay and Alonso. That would have to be considered an awfully expensive way to sell their "head fake". That one factor aside however, you could be onto something.

The Phillies' interest is not in question. However, at what price and whether, or not, there is a mutual interest on Harper's side, is quite another issue.

Almost. As soon as Harper signs elsewhere and if we learn that the Sox didn't make a reasonable offer, I will believe that ownership and the front office are indeed dishonest, inept and obtuse. The burden of proof is on them, but they still have a chance to redeem themselves.

I plead guilty. I actually predicted it. Call me naive and foolish. I just can't accept that this organization is really that dishonest, inept and obtuse.

And finally, one more take; If they can't redeem themselves through addition, maybe they should consider subtraction. Where is the accountability? If this off season results in nothing more than Jay, Alonso, Colome, Herrera, McCann, Nova, Guyer and Santana, after all that bravado about going after Machado and, or Harper, someone's "head should roll". How much money could they save by firing Hahn, or Williams? Maybe they could use that money to afford a real significant asset, if ownership seems so hard pressed to come up with the big bucks. Seeing some real accountability might reassure the fan base that this team is not the 'clown show,' as it is currently being characterized. I understand that it's probably Reinsdorf's fault, more than his front office, however no one can fire him, so the next best thing might be to fire one of those inept failures. Well, I'm done. That felt good. I'm all better now. Carry on.

Put another way; How many fans would be upset, or disillusioned because they gave $350 million of the owners money to Bryce Harper? "Boy, I'm just done with this stupid organization. Can you believe that they just over paid to sign Bryce Harper to a 10 year deal? I'm just done with this team"...When you view with that perspective, it's not hard to see why it makes sense. No one is going to lose interest, be upset, or spend less time and money on the Sox, because they over spent the owner's money.

Maybe Harper is not worth $350 million. Maybe he isn't worth more than Machado got. Maybe he isn't worth as much as Machado got. Maybe even Machado isn't worth what Machado got. And maybe none of these free agents are worth what they get. The point is that this team is now an embarrassment and the few fans it had, in the same city as the widely adored "Cubbies," are ready to abandon the South Side. The people in the front office and ownership have botched this off season so badly, that they desperately need to do something to redeem themselves. The question is; Is there any other plausible move, which they could make this season, other than signing Harper, that would approach redemption, in the eyes of their fans? Maybe the answer to that question will help us all to determine what Bryce Harper is "worth".

In addition to the previously discussed intangible benefits of acquiring Harper, perhaps we should include the face saving and redeeming factors, for the terribly inept way that the Machado negotiations, and follow up spin, were handled. That might justify the $40 million premium, over your personal evaluation of his worth.

I agree. The comparison between the two, and how they fit the organization, is no longer relevant. This is also about damage control. If we think that we needed to acquire one of these players, before this fiasco, we really do now. All of those intangibles, which we discussed ad nauseam, are now magnified by the fan "revolt," as evidenced by this forum and social media.

So, you are not in favor of acquiring him, at $350 million, right? At what cost would you be in favor?

Returning to the discussion of Harper and the Sox: If it is true that he does not want to play in Philly, the Sox should definitely have a realistic chance. I still can't believe that they are not interested. It's clear that Boras wants to secure a record contract for his client and, at the least, beat the deal his nemesis, Lozano got for Machado. I'm going to go out on a limb and prognosticate, which is something I rarely do. I think he signs with the Sox for 10 years, $350 Million, with an opt out, after year 5. That should be enough to entice him to the South Side, instead of Philadelphia. Now, if they offer that, but some other team offers the same, or more, and he decides to go elsewhere, I won't fault the organization and I won't be heartbroken. I would have serious reservations about any offers greater than that amount, or with opt outs, in the early years. In other words, I'd love to see the Sox get him, but not at any price. I'd like to add that the spin being spun, by Hahn, regarding "pride over having a seat at the table" is very ill-advised. Why in the world would you even suggest that such a place of prominence was ever in question? "We are one of the oldest and most respected franchises in baseball, in one of the greatest cities in the world, with a very knowledgeable and loyal fan base. We will always be interested in acquiring premium talent, and we will continue to pursue future opportunities". That is the way to speak about our beloved Chicago White Sox. I detest this groveling, inferior, self effacing approach. It's not only infuriating, it's embarrassing.

I expect that may indeed happen. however Avi is going to be a free agent, at the end of the season, and probably was not going to be resigned, with all of the very promising outfield prospects, in the system.

I agree that Basabe is a better prospect than Gonzalez, but he is further away, especially now that he has lost significant playing time, for this season. Of course, Robert is the ultimate top candidate for CF, but he is too young and too raw, to expect until 2021, unless he just races through the system.

It's not their fault, so I certainly hope Sox fans will not take out their frustration on Jay and Alonso. They seem like really good guys, probably with better character than the other amigo, in their little 305 club. However, They don't fit this team's needs, unless Harper is signed and the rebuild is jump started. The playing time needs to go to potential future pieces. The sooner that they can be removed from the roster, the better. In particular, I'd like to see Palka get some reps at first base. He could be a fit there, if Abreu is not extended. There is probably no rush to try one of the prospects in center, but Gonzalez may push that issue, sometime this season. In the meantime, I still have hope that Engel will figure out how to get on base enough to make him serviceable. Jay's presence kind of precludes that.

Yes, and as I keep arguing, the incentive of playing for another contract helps to keep the player motivated. Player opt outs are good for ownership, as long as they fit the team's time line for contention. 5 years would be fine for these circumstances.