Dick Allen

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 02:08 PM) Britton, Arieta, and Bundy? Ignored. Not ignored. Not difference makers.the 3 combined for a 0.3 WAR in 2013. Bobby is Less talented of the Bundy boys.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 02:55 PM) And he fired Larussa as the manager. But, it seems to me that Hawk had his hand in a good trade for us but I can't remember what it was Ivan Calderon.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 01:50 PM) One click in google popped this up, for just the Orioles. Ready to change the subject again? http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/sho...erslot-Signings 05 Overslot signings(prep or collegiate) Brandon Erbe RHP(HS) 3rd round David Hernandez RHP(CC) 16th round 06 Overslot signings(prep or collegiate) Zach Britton LHP(HS) 3rd round round 07 Overslot signings(prep or collegiate) Matt Wieters C(Collegiate) 1st round Jake Arrieta RHP(Collegiate) 5th round 08 Overslot signings(prep or collegiate) Brian Matusz LHP(Collegiate) 1st round Bobby Bundy RHP(HS) 8th round Jesse Beal RHP(HS) 14th round Oliver Drake RHP(Collegiate) 43rd round Weiters was the 5th pick in the draft. Do you really think the other guys make the White Sox better? Try again. All that shows it that paying over slot does not guarantee success.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 01:31 PM) You've been changing the subject to repackage your failed argument for days now. For the last time, The Sox were last in draft spending intentionally. They purposefully spend less money so as to redirect those funds to the major league team. No matter what you try to change the "point" to, and NONE of the non sequitors you keep trying to deflect to change those basic facts. It doesn't matter what new angles you come up with, or what words to bold in your statements. But feel free to keep trying to turn it into something else again, even after having the last theory proven wrong about draft spending happening because of draft position, even though the Red Sox and Yankees blew that one up. For days now? I posted on this subject yesterday. Oh yeah, again you fail to give any names. And I have given specific names of players who were available at the same money the Sox were willing to pay or even less. You have provided zero examples of how if they wanted to spend more and go over slot, they would have been able to select an over slot guy. Name the over slot guys.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 01:18 PM) /didn'tworkswitchtopics Exactly the game you are playing. The Yankees system sucks as well BTW. I have provided names. You have not. Why are you trying to change the subject? If you are going to say didn't work switch topics, why can't you provide specific examples as I have done? Seems between the 2 of us, there is only one playing the game you are accusing me of playing, and it isn't me. It is quite amazing asking you to answer the exact same question you refuse to answer is considered changing the topic in your world. LMAO.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 12:52 PM) Teams like the Red Sox and Yankees were in the top five every year? Examples of players the Sox didn't get because they didn't want to spend the money please. Not all over slot guys panned out either. Give me some names.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 12:44 PM) So it is just coincidence that the highest spending teams from 2007 to 2011 have the best farm systems today? lol, ok. You do realize you become high spending when you pick in the top 5 every year don't you? There was one team worse than the White Sox. One. And of course when asked to name a few over slot guys that would have propelled the White Sox to at least average, crickets.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 12:14 PM) You have changed the goalposts about 50 times in the scope of this discussion to make some point that actually sort of works for you. You completely ignored anything that didn't work, including exactly what the former and current GM had to say on this subject, which is better than a couple of anecdotal pieces of made up "evidence" that don't even relate to the original discussion. There are also plenty of times that teams went overslot drafting after the Sox to pick higher ceiling-ed players, which even casts doubt on your latest non sequitor. Name these over slot guys that the White Sox refusal to sign made their collective draft WAR less than half the average major league team. You always ask for examples and say the poster won't provide them. Here is a chance to practice what you preach. I haven't moved the goalposts at all. You are ignoring the White Sox passed on several players who were quickly snatched up and who became stars when they picked their busts. And for some reason think if they had spent more money, that would have automatically made them pick the best players when the evidence shows that to be unrealistic.

QUOTE (Jose Paniagua @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 12:20 PM) I get this whole vibe from Hawk that he doesnt want to talk about Hahn that much. He mentions him, but soxfest was the first time he seemed to willingly be positive about him in a public way Sees him as a changing of the guard, suits-over-jocks in front offices? When Hawk was the GM, he basically fired Dombrowski because Dombrowski didn't have a background as a player. I always wondered what he would think about Hahn considered it was rather obvious he was next in line for several years. I do get the impression that he likes and respects him.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 11:56 AM) You are honestly saying that money has nothing to do with a farm system? Speaking of ignoring... You are the one doing all of the ignoring. I have given examples of players selected near the Sox selections that were much better players than the ones the White Sox selected, and they didn't cost more money. We all know KW has thrown money at things on the major league level and it didn't make the team better. You have provided exactly zero examples of if the Sox spent more they automatically draft better. I showed you a couple of times they did spend, and it didn't work out. If spending money was a guarantee that the White Sox would be able to select the best player on the board, I just wonder when all it cost was what they were willing to pay, why they didn't choose a better player? Just answer that question.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 10:45 AM) No matter how you spin it or change the argument, the point has been made over and over again. The Sox spent less than anyone else on the minor league system than anyone else in baseball, and they did it on purpose, to funnel money to the major league club. How does that prove that KW could have had a top minor league system if he wanted one? His drafts were epically bad. He passed on players who became really good players and paid bad ones the same or more money. Ignore it if you want. I don't care. Everyone else sees it. For the last time, no matter how much money you spend, you still have to spend it on the correct players.

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 10:30 AM) Another determinant of draftee success is minor league instruction. Anyone gonna argue we've been any good at that? Pitchers, perhaps. Definitely not hitters. To me, that is a huge question. Maybe the profile the hitters they draft are all pretty much the same, because most seem to have the same problems. When I go home I will get the term BP used, it's pretty funny, but there are so many White Sox farmhands that have making contact as a huge weakness, it makes you wonder about instruction and development. Are they picking the wrong players, or are they not developing them. Reading BP, you get the sense if they had an Olympic games, White Sox minor leaguers would get a lot of medals with their speed and strength. Playing baseball seems an entirely different matter. Maybe the new hitting coach and what they plan with an organizational offensive philosophy will help. We know it won't hurt.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 10:09 AM) Exactly what I stated from the beginning is 100% true. The White Sox spent 15% less than any other team in all of baseball from 2007 to 2011. They spent about 1/3 of what the top team spent. Both Hahn and Williams have clearly stated that they took money from development and put it into the major league team. Spin all you like, the facts are the facts. They flat our sacrificed the minors for the majors. If you want to stay in denial, by all means, do so. Wasn't the argument always draft position? Now it is spending. The fact is, if they are picking top 5 every year, they would have spent more. When they did spend, over $5 million for Borchard, the biggest bonus ever at the time I believe, and almost $2.5 million for Josh Fields, those guys sucked. Money wasn't the cure all. THEY NEEDED TO SELECT BETTER PLAYERS. One last time, I gave examples of guys who were available for slot money and were selected around the White Sox picks. There has been one example of going over slot, Porcello vs. Poreda which would have netted a better player. The White Sox paid slot. Current stars signed for slot. The White Sox from 2001-2007 had less than half the cumulative WAR of the average MLB team. KW threw money at the Major League team? Did it make the team better? Why would it have automatically made the minor league system better? And we haven't even mentioned the guy KW actually gave a promotion, and then wound up in jail.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 09:46 AM) But then you said you weren't talking about the team itself but instead the top picks. I do agree that Williams was exaggerating to some extent, but Reinsdorf really did hamstring him in those situations because he was unwilling to pay overslot for players. A ton of people on the board wanted the Sox to draft Rick Porcello, but because he was a Boras client and was going to go overslot, we knew there was a 0% chance of it happening. Then they took Aaron Poreda - who the f is this? - and the Tigers took Porcello shortly there after. Williams saying "we could have a good minor league system if we wanted" is a little bit of exaggeration, but he also did allocate most of that money to the MLB team. It would have been better had they spent $90 million on the MLB team instead. In hindsight, they probably should have, but they are trying to fix that problem now. Hopefully in 2-4 years, they have a top 10 minor league system and are producing talent all over the place. I am talking entire draft. I don't think Porcello vs. Poreda is the difference between good and bad the past 13 seasons, but it is one example of paying over slot for a better player. Porcello may be really good one day, Poreda never will be, but if you recall, the White Sox were really high on him. He was the first poster child for the not taking the "safe" pick. He made his debut in Milwaukee. I was pretty excited to see him pitch. That didn't last long.

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 09:43 AM) Just curious, where are you getting your numbers? I've done a lot of googling and come up with nothing useful. It is in my Baseball Prospectus.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 09:25 AM) Show me one team that has done a consistent job of getting the right players. The Red Sox, maybe? But even they only have 4 players since 2000 with 5 or more WAR. The Cardinals have 2. It's not easy to consistently pick players right. Not even the two best teams in the majors have done so. It isn't easy. It is why saying you could have a top farm system if you wanted a top farm system is ridiculous. Thank you for agreeing with me. But if you look at the totals of my chart, the White Sox are way below the average team in drafting WAR. As I mentioned, they haven't had a homegrown hitter but up a 3 WAR since Joe Crede in 2006. Since 2006, the average team has had 7 seasons of homegrown hitters putting up a 3 war. They also didn't have a 2 WAR hitter for them in any draft from 2001-2007. You are saying "show me one team", if everyone is terrible at it, why from 2001-2007 did the White Sox total WAR drafted come out to less than half league average? The league average was 94.7. The White Sox drafted 44.6. The only team worse at drafting players were the Brewers.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 07:41 AM) Just so someone says it again...everyone does realize that doing exercises like this with the MLB Draft...going through and thinking "oh man if only we'd had person x"...is absolutely insane and will completely destroy your mental state, correct? The number of examples of guys who step up in a totally unexpected way after the draft is staggering. The number of highly-touted, highly drafted guys who develop some flaw and then never reach their potential is even higher. If you re-did a draft even 6 months later it would look totally different. MVP's drop to the 2nd/3rd/15th/62nd round when there was such a thing. It happens all the time. At some level...you can in fact come up with blame if you miss on guys consistently over a long period of time...but if you do the statistics there's a good chance you'd get the same results even if you did everything right. Less than 1% of the guys in the draft are all-stars and only a couple percent ever make the big leagues. If you propagate those stats through, just by random chance there will be some teams who have unusual amounts of success and some teams that go years and years with nothing but failure. For a while there were ways to rig the system, with spending overseas and overslot, but even that was no guarantee, it was just slightly weighting the dice. Now the only way to weight the dice better is in scouting and development, for the most part. It just shows the White Sox have consistently missed during this century. I am not putting in guys like Pujols, I am using guys selected right around where the Sox selected and guys who signed for basically slot money. They have been wrong so many times, and the quote that KW could have had a top farm system if he wanted still requires the White Sox to select the correct players, no matter how much they are willing to pay them. They, since 2001, have not show a constitent ability to do that.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 9, 2014 -> 04:36 PM) On top of that, I think they also specifically targeted guys based on "people that we'll be able to trade in the next year" like Broadway and McCullough even if they weren't the highest-rated guys on their board. I think they admitted that one too. Then throw in a couple of talented busts...Fields and Anderson and Poreda, and you've got quite a mess. So let me get this straight, they picked worse players so they could trade them in the next year. Boy that makes a lot of sense. Do you have a link? I am guessing not. And who are all these players they were able to trade in the next year? Don't they have to keep them a year?

Boston gave Dustin Pedroia a $575k bonus as a 2nd rd. pick in 2004. The Sox selected Fields, Whisler, Lumdsen,Gio, and Lucy ahead of him giving everyone but Lucy more money. Lucy got $525k. Pedroia's career WAR is only 29 less than the collective WAR of every White Sox draft pick since 2001.add Ellbury who was given $170k less than Lance Broadway a couple of spots lower in their draft,and the 2 of them add up to only 6 less WAR than the collective WAR of every player the White Sox have drafted since 2001. Thank God Sale dropped down to the Sox or it would have been worse. KW said he could have had a good minor league system had he wanted. If you are implying it is just as simple as throwing more money at it, just look at the major league team. Throwing more money at it did not make them better. You have to select the correct players. I have given many examples of players who signed for slot who were much better players than the players selected by the Sox.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 9, 2014 -> 07:50 PM) I'll give you one thing. Even when it is there in print, you never admit you are wrong. Even when the GM himself said it, it didn't matter, let alone all of the sources. deny, deny, deny. I am not denying anything. Google mlb signing bonus. Click on the angelfire link. They have the bonuses for this decade. I have researched and shown you just some of the stars the Sox passed on to pay inferior players more money. Maybe you can show me the players they would have selected had they allocated more money. I am sure you will not. I suppose if KW wanted a good farm system he would have drafted guys like Ellbury, Pedroia, Wright, Jones, Trout, Cain, but he didn't so we get Fields, Lucy, Ring, Honel, Broadway, for MORE money.My examples are guys that were drafted soon after they White Sox made a dud of a pick and were signed for slot money. Pretty straight forward. Besides, if you look at the guys who were paid way over slot, many didn't work out. The guy thought Jeff Marquez was Jon Garland. He thought Tyler Flowers was a stud. He compared Jon Gilmore to Joe Crede. Traded a pretty valuable trading piece for a bust of a prospect in Nestor Molina who he thought was starring in Winter Ball when he wasn't. The reason the minor league system was bad was certainly not money.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 9, 2014 -> 07:23 PM) Not for one year. For years. Again, go ahead and look up their draft spending totals. Tell me where they ranked on minor league spending vs the rest of baseball during those years. Just like always, when proven wrong, you change the subject, hence all of the single examples trying to act like the truth isn't the truth. The Sox didn't spend on the draft, and instead put the money into the major league team. Example? How about this article for one, which incidentally was the first google hit under "white sox draft spending" SOX RANKED LAST IN DRAFT SPENDING FROM 2007-2011 http://taurussports.net/davids-blog/2014/1...t-spending.html Also the White Sox spent $34 million less on the draft than the Pirates from 2007 to 2011 http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-06...-baseball-draft graphic of draft spending in 2011 from fangraphs http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/visualizing...draft-spending/ From 2007 to 2011, the Sox spent $3 million less than any other team in baseball on the draft. http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/...and-51-million/ 2008 saw the Sox spending only $300,000 in the international market, good for 22nd overall http://sonsofsamhorn.net/topic/38782-2008-...-international/ Now, what was that you were saying? Once again nothing. They missed on a ton of players. I pointed that out. Go back to the drafts and look at the bonuses. Google it. Angelfire has a link for every year. Overall, they may have spent little, but that is because they signed guys for slot. The first few rounds, the spending wasn't that different from other teams. They actually had 4 picks before Dustin Pedroia and Clay Bucholtz. They gave Fields, Lumsten. Whisler, All more money than Boston gave future MVP Pedroia. was selected in the second round. Ellsbury and Garcia were pick in the first round after Broadway and signed for less money. Mike Trout was $15,000 more expensive than jared Mitchell. Adam Jones was available and signed for less than Brian Anderson. Matt Cain was picked just after Royce Ring. Dan Haren and David Wright together got less bonus money than the Sox paid Kris Honel. Don't let the facts stop you.they pick a couple of the alternitives, just a couple, a lot is different. But it was miss, miss, miss. They scary thing is some people think these guys are going to pick a stud in the second round. History says probably not.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 9, 2014 -> 06:27 PM) These discussions all happened while these players were being drafted. Nitpicking an example here or there doesn't change the spending realities. Go look up the White Sox spending numbers for their drafts and get back to me as to where they compared to the rest of MLB. Go ahead. That is for the entire draft because they didn't spend $2-3 million on a 3rd round or later pick. They were usually right around slot I have examples of poor selections and proof there were plenty of other better players that they could have signed even cheaper.Please provide me a link of the White Sox saying they were just selecting guys to trade. There is a reason a 35 year employee lost his job in 2007, and your boy KW, didn't think it had to do with bonuses. I know you won't provide any links or proof of your position. You never do. The only thing I expect is some smart ass answer, but the proof is in the pudding. The White Sox minor league system was epically bad. No one wanted that.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 9, 2014 -> 04:51 PM) I'm sure you will ignore it again, but you damned well know that Williams went cheap on the drafts to put money into the major league team for quite a long time. Says they guy who thinks KW can do no wrong. HIS DRAFTS WERE AWFUL, AND THE SOX PAID THE PRICE. Jared Mitchell was $15,000 cheaper than Mike Trout. If you go back to that draft, there were a lot of scouts who thought the Sox would take Trout. That is one example. This isn't about being cheap. This was about poor selection. There were players who received smaller bonuses that guys like Broadway and have had decent careers. 3 consectutive years without a 7 collective WAR? If that is what he had in mind, if that was the plan, it was a dumb plan. No team that cannot spend $1 if they only have $.50 can not let that eventually get them. Wes Whistler and Josh Fields and Tyler Lundsen got a lot more money than Dustin Pedroia. Donny Lucy taken a couple of picks before Dustin got $50k less. Lanc Broadway signing bonus $1.57 million Jacoby Ellsbury drafted later that round $1.4 million bonus. Matt Garza had eve a smaller bonus. Every player draft after McCoullough who made the major leagues received a smaller bonus than the $1 million he was paid. It wasn't about the money. Excuses are for failure. The draft this century with very few exceptions, has been a rather large failure.the White Sox knew it wasn't about money. It is why they fired Duane Schaefer in 2007. The players being selected were not good enough.it is improved some since that happened, but that improvement really is one player, Chris Sale.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Feb 9, 2014 -> 04:33 PM) I think some of this is true. He elected to put most of his budget to the MLB team so he took chances on guys he could sign for a low price. So in essence I think he did draft if not bad at least lower talented guys on purpose. He knew he couldn't afford the top tier. This is part of the reason I think the drafts will change as everyone will be limited in budget with slotting so the Sox will not be hurt as much. I don't agree, and again, this is just not first round. They had 3 consecutive years they didn't have a collective 3 career WAR their entire draft.

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Feb 9, 2014 -> 03:41 PM) But not necessarily WAR just with the White Sox, right? Because we traded tons of minor leaguers, so their WAR with the White Sox would be expected to be low. It's the WAR of Sox draftees throughout all of the teams they end up with that would really show how crappy KWs draft classes were (which they were). Right. It is every pick. The 14.2 in 2004 in fact is basically all Gio, and none of it is with the White Sox. His drafts were beyond awful. But the trading of prospects as a knock was BS as well. Gio, Hudson for a short time, were really the only guys who where worth a damn. Overall, KW got more than he gave.