StrangeSox

QUOTE (bmags @ Feb 7, 2010 -> 10:35 AM) Excellent article by Greenwald ending this stupid memo that the constitution only applies to US citizens It's almost as if they know nothing of US government or the Constitution.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 7, 2010 -> 10:59 AM) lol. You are pretty much calling the entire country irrational then, because the valuations of companies are set based on order flow that comes to the marketplace. I guess we are back to the idea of not trusting people to make their own decisions. Reacting that way to a simple speech that didn't even really introduce new policy is a good definition of irrationality.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Feb 5, 2010 -> 05:09 PM) No, because a trade is a degree. It isn't anything less than that. I got a degree in accounting/finance so I could go into that. In the trade world, you usually are an apprentice for a few years, hone your craft, and get good and at that point hopefully become a contractor or master craftsmen, etc. That time you are learning is when you are essentially earning your degree in your skill so that you can be on your own one day. Just like I went to school to learn accounting so I could be on my own one day. A degree from here or learning a trade is no different. Remember, trades involve getting certifications too. they are completely different for the discussion.

kap is making s*** up. again.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Feb 5, 2010 -> 03:54 PM) To me learning a trade is the equivalent of getting a degree. And I think a huge flaw with our school system is we look down on the trades and shouldn't because you can be highly successful and they are very lucrative professions if you are provided with the right opportunities and training. That misses the point of the idea that getting a college degree means you'll earn more.

QUOTE (Tex @ Feb 5, 2010 -> 03:19 PM) Ok. But which career makes the most financial success is a terrible yardstick for most people. Now you're miss-stating the argument. Please try to respond to what other people are actually saying.

QUOTE (kapkomet @ Feb 5, 2010 -> 09:12 AM) As we've shown you time and again, clearly, no? Seriously? Taking over of health care by our government is pretty radical (left). Taking over automotive industries is pretty radical (left). Taking over bank industry is pretty radical (left). Taking over pay for businesses in general is pretty radical (left). Taking over the tax structure because there's so much debt that no one will EVER be able to pay it is pretty radical (left). I'm sensing a pattern here........ Yes, it's the giant strawman you keep building in every argument.

QUOTE (Leonard Zelig @ Feb 4, 2010 -> 08:28 PM) Go listen to Kicking Television again and then tell me where the band is "pleasant/boring". And then tell where you think Nels sounds "disgusting and Kenny G-esque." Their live shows with Nels have been great. Their albums with him have been incredibly boring but I wouldn't say it is his fault.

QUOTE (kapkomet @ Feb 4, 2010 -> 10:20 PM) The picture that's painted is that Republicans are the only one to pull this s***. Everything they do is "unprecedented". Uh huh. Everything is bulls*** now. That's why we have a lunatic in the White House after a lunatic just left. And I don't ever see that cycle breaking because all the good people that might be worthy stay out of it for the exact questions you ask above. Please, just drop the "Everyone is equally evil and bad" bulls***. It simply isn't true, especially in this case.

It's a tool that's been morphed into breaking the way our government is established by requiring a super-majority to pass anything the minority party doesn't like.

QUOTE (Tex @ Feb 5, 2010 -> 05:57 AM) Actually I will reject that argument (wow, what a surprise) Some careers pay less, some more. Some people are happy working any job as long as it pays well. Others want to follow their passion. So sure, you should pick a major based on cost/benefit, others should not. You're not rejecting the argument, you're deflecting and shifting goalposts. The argument isn't "what makes people happiest" but what makes the most financial sense. I'm going to back iamshack here and say that logic and ethics courses should be mandatory parts of any curriculum.

Why would a governor joke about secession at a political event full of people that would be very much in favor of that?

QUOTE (Tex @ Feb 4, 2010 -> 08:25 PM) I guess I should preface that while I am saying college degree, an apprentice program or additional training beyond high school would count as well. We were comparing someone with just a high school diploma. No doubt, the trades are still a decent way to make a nice living. If that is what you enjoy doing, go for it. But if you don't like working outside, or doing physical labor, it just might not be worth it. That's the crux of the argument, though: the expense of a college degree vs. potential increased earnings. It needs to be examined on a degree-by-degree basis as well, because a CS/EE degree will pay a lot more than a sociology degree.

QUOTE (Tex @ Feb 4, 2010 -> 08:08 PM) It also includes Bill Gates who dropped out. Ok I will agree with some. In fact, now that I think about it, I will agree most. Especially in this economy. I have two kids graduating in a few years and the more kids I can discourage from going to college, the better for them Now I'm going to argue against myself sort of and pass along some advice I heard from a professor once by paraphrasing his story: His son wanted to go into forestry but was discouraged by the very limited number of job openings. His advice was that, if there's only 100 new jobs openings in that field, you better work your hardest to ensure you're one of the 100 best. I'm not arguing against education. I don't plan to ever stop learning. I'm arguing against the big rush to get millions of teenagers every year to start getting themselves into thousands of dollars of debt without really understanding or knowing what they want out of life.

QUOTE (Tex @ Feb 4, 2010 -> 08:05 PM) I agree with all that. And as I mentioned earlier, if the only thing you are looking for in a job is money, than perhaps working is a better way. But if you have a passion for History or English, there are careers that you can get that are more rewarding for that person than trades. I would argue that if you are going into the trades, an apprentice program would be valuable. But if you decide to become an auto mechanic because you can make $45,000 a year but you love English. You just might be happier in the long run working at a book publisher for $30,000 a year. It is funny that you mention History and English because those are the experiences I'm drawing from. One of my friends graduated from Lewis with a History degree. Her student loan payments are more than my mortgage + car payment. She works as a sales rep. assistant (order processing, customer calls, etc.) making close to your example salary. She works at the Route 66 museum in Joliet on weekends just to have something in the field she enjoys. But, realistically, how many options are there for a History major in that field vs. the potentially massive educational costs? My fiance was lucky to land a job as an editorial assistant with her English degree but many of her classmates were not. Again, what are the odds of even being able to work at the job you're passionate about? Also, I'd like to revise your example salaries. Another couple of my friends are in the trades (electrician, plumber). They're both just shy of becoming journeymen and are holding off because the $40/ hr pay rate will mean less jobs in the current economy. They were making more than your $45,000 salary example since a year or two after highschool while the rest of us were racking up debt. Sticking with it, they can expect to make a very decent living; certainly just as much as many college grads could.

QUOTE (The Beast @ Feb 4, 2010 -> 07:58 PM) Again, coming out of high school I really didn't know what to do. In high school I worked on the school paper and it was okay, so I figured I'd follow my initial "dream job" and try to cover the White Sox and Bears like Gonzales and Haugh do. After all, "they say" do what you love. Little did I know how competitive the industry was and what people have to do to be successful. Our newspaper was monthly and when I reached college I was like a deer in headlights when I figured out the daily pressures of j-school. I took some assignments and wrote about the swim team. In high school I was a reporter and then I worked as an editor so I didn't really do all of the stuff reporters do my senior year of HS. I also was fascinated at broadcasting at one point but wasn't really a good source of talent. When I looked at Eastern I felt like it was the best department for me along with education, so I tried them all out. That's when I found out what the newspaper industry is really like and when I returned home my freshman year, I had no clue of what I was going to study for my freshman year. Journalism is an interesting topic, but I'm probably more suited for PR. Any field. The other thing that kind of made me upset with journalism is that I didn't really meet people and couldn't go do what everyone else was doing and just hanging out after classes. I'm a 9-5 guy, not an 8-??? guy. If anything, I should have taken a lot more business and political science courses earlier on. I'll be on deadline in a job, but not if it's a job that is low paying with an industry in shambles where there aren't any guarantees in terms of real good jobs (such as my "dream job"). I don't mind putting work in and getting things done, I just didn't want to write for a living. In just about any field, if you want to get ahead, you won't be a "9-5" guy. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to write for a living, but don't let the long hours you've seen there be the main obstacle.

QUOTE (Tex @ Feb 4, 2010 -> 08:00 PM) Sure I have. But that usually is more their experience than education. We seem to be talking entry level. The premise was, people would be better off without a college degree, that the degree will not earn them enough additional compensation to make up for the cost of the degree. You're mis-stating the position. The premise is that some people can be better off without a college degree. For many degrees, there is not enough additional compensation to make up for the cost of the degree. Those estimates of "One million more!" include guys like the founders of Google who are billionaires. It isn't necessarily a realistic expectation.

QUOTE (kapkomet @ Feb 4, 2010 -> 07:11 PM) Right. The government, even though they own this crap for the most part, knew nothing of these bonuses. I've got some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you as well. Government isn't absolved here. That doesn't make any "keeping talent" excuses for bonuses any less stupid.

QUOTE (kapkomet @ Feb 4, 2010 -> 06:07 PM) Yep, that was my lead in. Banks are indeed pretty earthquakish, though. Those shifty bastards. All the more reason to stabilize the foundations by handing out millions in bonuses. Wouldn't want to lose that bubble-inflating talent, would we?!

Also, you don't necessarily have to be in reporting or newspapers to to journalism. And what field do you plan on getting into that doesn't have deadline pressures? I've had deadline pressures non-stop since October.

QUOTE (Tex @ Feb 4, 2010 -> 04:43 PM) Why would someone with just a high school diploma work for less money than someone with a college degree? And what position was it that they refused to look at college grads? You've never heard of anyone being turned away because they were over-qualified? A seriously over-qualified candidate will want more money and more opportunity down the road, making them more likely to either be unhappy with their position or leave at the first opportunity.

QUOTE (Tex @ Feb 4, 2010 -> 04:35 PM) If they did get the HS grad to work for less, that means they offered it to a college grad first who turned it down. I'd still rather have the offer and turn it down, then not get an offer. And I believe that proves 2K5's point, you make more with the college degree. No, I didn't state my point clearly. The college grad has a ton of debt and can't afford to take that job opening for $10. The HS grad, who has a significantly smaller debt load, can. Economics forces the debt-laden college grads to look for higher paying jobs or be unable to pay their bills. The idea that college grads typically earn more isn't a bad one, but it isn't a hard-and-fast rule, either. It is heavily dependent on the degree you choose. Finance or software/ computer engineering? Yeah, you can make a good buck. Journalism? History? English? You could be stuck with a sales rep or sales assistant job making less than $30k very easily. Go into the trades and you can be making good money for years while your friends are racking up debt. I'm by no means downplaying the importance of education or even education for knowledge's sake. However, I think its unfortunate that so many kids have it drilled into them that "no college=failure".

QUOTE (Tex @ Feb 4, 2010 -> 12:44 PM) All of them. Name one where a college degree excludes you? I can't think of a scenario where the people with the college degree will be lined up behind someone without one. If it means the HS degree will do the same work for less money...

QUOTE (bmags @ Feb 3, 2010 -> 07:08 PM) I've seen pre nels and post nels and the only difference is the awful nels era's songs I have to listen to. Wooheee he can play a lot of notes. Someone in the band needs to sack up and tell Tweedy to stop writing such p**** songs.

Hey, they cracked down on lobbyists! They only let in all of the ones they really like.