StrangeSox

I know someone who is able to hold a full-time job because he was educated through high school. He will never live on his own, but he is a nice guy and not ostracized in public when attending weddings, family parties, etc. I also have a friend who teaches high school special ed. Treating them as human beings deserving of education the same as everyone else makes a huge difference.

They directly cite FDIC documents a bunch of times, so that seems to lend some credibility. I haven't seen talk or analysis of it anywhere else yet.

...so that would mean that the US system is better than advertised and there's no reason to criticize the tenure system as a reason we lag behind other countries, mainly because they also have tenure systems so that argument doesn't make any sense anyway but also because we're not really worse after all.

hey man, it's technically true that, despite firing almost its entire workforce and scheduling the shutdown of the plant in 2008, the plant didn't complete close until 2009! That's all Ryan's trying to say, that Obama is responsible for the plant laying off those last 57 people that knew their jobs were gone anyway. He just forgot a few of the minor, irrelevant details.

I don't know but I also don't care. I don't want a society that leaves its most vulnerable members behind.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 30, 2012 -> 02:57 PM) No one is ever going to vote to stop educating special education kids. ....good?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 30, 2012 -> 02:56 PM) That's funny, so am I. That's bizarre. You were the one who made the argument that our tenure system has a negative impact on our educational outcomes when measured against other countries, so I had assumed you had some sort of evidence or reasoning to support that.

More and more school districts are mainstreaming special ed these days, meaning that the students are in a regular classroom but with a one-on-one aid.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Aug 30, 2012 -> 02:45 PM) I don't doubt it is more expensive, but what percent of the educational system is for special needs? 3%? 6%? Can't be much more than that. It's about 13% of total enrollment. The cost-per-pupil is significantly higher, $24k vs $10k annually, at least in Hawaii

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Aug 30, 2012 -> 02:39 PM) In the grand scheme I'm not sure those costs are really that much. But what's that have to do with the tenure system? Special education kids cost a whole lot more to educate. It has as much to do with the tenure system as any of ss2k5's posts. I'm still waiting for an explanation on how our system is different and why that explains differences in outcomes.

Let's hope federal law never changes so that we don't start throwing the disadvantaged under the bus in the name of lower taxes. That's also one of the slight-of-hands used to trump up charter school successes; those schools don't have to take special education (read: resource-intensive) children.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Aug 30, 2012 -> 02:34 PM) Let's just have the government print money for everyone! Problem solved. Socialism FTW. Let's not have massive wealth accumulation and hording among a tiny, tiny fraction of the population. But that's not exactly directly addressing my comments on workplace and employee rights. You need to be able to pay a competent lawyer if you're trying to sue any non-small business employer that has a legal team. Plus it's still ridiculously hard to prove ageism since the company will find some BS reasons to fire you.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Aug 30, 2012 -> 02:26 PM) First, without notice and without compensation is not a tenure system. A tenure system is you basically have to really f*** up to be fired. That's crap. I don't want to live in a society where businesses are forced to keep s***ty employees just because they've been there a long time. Should businesses do that on their own? Probably, but that's up to the business owner. A global tenure system probably is a bad idea, but stronger worker protections are not. Unemployment benefits keep someone from instant poverty, but they run out. And unless you can get coverage through a spouse, COBRA is incredibly expensive. I'd be fine with a freer labor market if we had an actually robust social welfare system and Medicare-for-all health coverage, but until then, losing your job is a devastating event for most people. Ageism suits aren't exactly easy to win, and you have to be able to afford the litigation on your unemployment benefits. Not a real option for most people.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 30, 2012 -> 02:25 PM) Tenuring bad teachers has nothing to do with the cost in the system? Talk about supporting my argument. No, not really, not unless you can show how our tenure system is worse in this regard than other countries' systems. Because otherwise it's a common feature and wouldn't lead to different results, which is what you started talking about when I made my broad critique of the crab mentality working-class (blue- and white-collar) people often exhibit.

If you wouldn't game the system if you had the income levels necessary to really enter into the tax-dodging world, you don't have to pretend to be better.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 30, 2012 -> 02:20 PM) I am sure the NEA protecting bad teachers isn't hurting the system at all. It makes perfect sense. I'm sure that has nothing to do with you talking about costs and how we're worse than other countries, because those other countries also have strong tenure systems, some even stronger than ours. This clearly shows that tenure systems period are not the cause of differential results in education. You need to show that our tenure systems are worse than other countries' systems if you want to supportyour argument. And you still need to support the claim that good teachers wouldn't get fired or would quickly find new jobs, unless you're dropping that bit of silliness.

Inviting A “Stop and Frisk” By Openly Carrying an AK-47 Pistol with a Thirty Round Clip In a Public Park: An Unusual Fourth and Second Amendment Case Thanks to Howard Bashman for the link. UPDATE: It seems that the appellant in the case (aka the one with the gun) is now participating actively in our comment thread. Be sure to read the thread if you’re interested in knowing more about the case. The guy was carrying around one of these strapped to his chest with the tip painted orange: which I guess technically qualifies as a pistol for Tennessee's open-carry law. He's actively commenting in the discussion thread, seems like a nutjob.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Aug 30, 2012 -> 01:57 PM) I am talking about things that I consider to be illegal. A lot of them are "grey" but as an attorney you understand when the spirit of the law is being abused. I dont think making money is immoral. I dont really believe in morality, I believe in utility. Anyway, having 3 kids you cant afford, my first answer is, why werent they aborted. But therein lies the rub, the party that doesnt want abortion doesnt want to pay for the results. You cant have it both ways. Im a callous b****, I know that. If we really believe these children are a drain on society, change the rules. You get support for 1 kid, but you get free abortions for the rest. I dont want to pay for other peoples mistakes, I just understand that there are consequences if I dont. As for comparing to dummy corps, I think that the corps are worse. At least the kid has a chance to do something amazing and change the world. The corp isnt going to help anyone. Corporations are people too, my friend.

QUOTE (bmags @ Aug 30, 2012 -> 01:54 PM) I have an auction draft i'm preparing for tonight. Do it. Spend the next 6-10 hours of your life reading blog posts. Actually that reminds me, I've got a draft tonight too, better at least glance at some of the rankings.

They do now, because of tenure. At schools without tenure? Or if tenure was eliminated and similar firing protections weren't negotiated in contract? No, they wouldn't. They'd be just like any other employee in Illinois who can be fired at will and without cause.

Sweet, now address something relevant to your claims about tenure, please.

If you haven't seen it, check out some of the sparring that Robin and others at Crooked Timber did with some of the Bleeding Heart Libertarians over workplace coercion. There's a pretty big rabbit hole of links and posts to follow, but there's a lot of good reading.

I never said it was a spending issue. I never said that bad teachers weren't also protected by tenure. What I did say is that it's laughable to still be clinging to the idea that good people aren't fired from their jobs and, if they are, that they can find gainful employment without going through some major hardships. Especially in 2012, especially in education. It's flat-out ridiculous. On top of that, teacher tenure is not unique to the US (32). South Korea and Australia are both at or near the top of educational rankings and have tenure systems. So, clearly, it can't be tenure itself that is the problem. It could be that the specific implementation of tenure in some counties or districts is flawed, but the general idea of granting teachers tenure is not why the US lags in education.

Here's a timely piece! http://coreyrobin.com/2012/08/30/were-goin...-their-ass-off/

He made a dumb, misleading-at-best argument, that's all.