iamshack

What the Marlins should or will do is not even a topic worthy of discussion, IMHO.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 12:52 PM) The only reason it has changed in the NFL is the rule changes to specifically make the offense more important. In baseball the same thing happend when they lowered the mound. But pitching and defense is still the most important because you have one person who can control the game. This is countered by the fact that a SP can only pitch once every 4 or 5 games. It isn't like a hockey goalie where he can play every game, for the most part.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 12:38 PM) No, not for Sale. If they actually trade him, they are trading him for prospects. If they hypothetically traded him for Sale, it would be Sale for Stanton straight up. You are not getting Eovaldi too. I would be upset with that trade then. Sale has not only shown elite potential, but he has produced elite results. Not sure the same could be said for Stanton.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 11:55 AM) I'm not quite sure that's the belief of every scout. I think there's a whole lot of people who think you build from pitching first. And if we were starting with nothing, or if we were starting with equal resources on each side, yes, I would probably seek out pitching first.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 11:19 AM) Martin should have been armed to defend himself against this creep who was stalking him through the neighborhood. Exactly. Then we have a situation where everyone feels they need to arm themselves, and all hell breaks lose.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 11:18 AM) There's no point in trading him for equal value, though -- you might as well just keep him. IF you want to trade him, it's for future value, and it's got to be enough that you get the potential for more value to mitigate the cost of the risk. The only way it makes sense to move Sale (and I'm not saying we should) would be for multiple big-time, high upside prospects. Or because you have concerns about his durability. Or because you feel like you have more SP available to you then you do position players. There are plenty of reasons to trade him, and you guys need to stop thinking of this as anything other than what it is - trading one commodity for other(s) because you believe it improves your overall strength. That isn't to say Chris Sale isn't special, because he is. But he also isn't so unique that his contribution to the whole cannot be replaced with others.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 11:08 AM) They could, he'd be disobeying a direct police order. This made me giggle.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 10:57 AM) What? A police officer telling him to not do something WOULD have legal repercussions even if it's over the phone. So if he was speaking to Sgt. Joe at the police department, reporting this to their non-emergency line, and Sgt. Joe says to Zimmerman, "stop following the suspect," and Zimmerman continues to do so anyways, you are telling me the police are going to charge him for something?

QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 10:50 AM) You honestly don't see the exponential increase in the possibility of danger and generally horrible altercations when you start attacking people who are following you because you think they are crazy-ass crackers? When juxtaposed against the potential for those things to happen as a result of this person following you already? No, I don't.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 10:46 AM) No idea what their training consists of. All I know is that their advice holds no legal power. Neither would the advice of a police officer speaking to Zimmerman over the phone. That isn't the point. The point is that a trained professional advised him not to do something. That is evidence that his actions were potentially dangerous and therefore it is not surprising that something like this occurred.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 10:40 AM) <!--quoteo(post=2835304:date=Jul 12, 2013 -> 12:30 PM:name=iamshack)-->QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 12:30 PM) <!--quotec-->I guess I feel like we have police officers for a reason. When you try to assume the role of the police, and you are not trained to do so, bad things happen. If enough people were to do this, it sort of encourages more people to feel as though they need to be carrying guns because it just isn't safe anymore. Then all the sudden everyone is walking around with guns and these sort of misunderstandings begin occurring exponentially more frequently. Ask the people of Detroit how waiting for the cops works out (an old clip but still good): I get your general sentiment, but police departments and cops aren't good all the time. They're slow. They're ineffective. I have no problem with people taking the initiative to clean up their neighborhood. With limits, obviously. And if you are going to chose to follow people with a loaded gun, you should probably be a little more prepared to deal with potential altercations than Zimmerman was. I'm sorry, but when you choose to carry a firearm, there is a very implicit responsibility you take on, especially if you are going to carry that firearm while pursuing those you suspect to be criminals on foot. This is like me deciding I want to make a piece of furniture myself because it takes 12 weeks for the store to deliver it to me. I decide to use all the fancy power saws and tools. Then I am surprised when I saw my finger off. You honestly don't see the exponential increase in the possibility of danger and generally horrible altercations when you start encouraging untrained individuals to carry firearms and approach suspected criminals?

QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 10:23 AM) he was UNRECOGNIZED by the neighborhood watch. He called reporting someone he didn't know walking in the dark and rain, in an area where there had been recent breakins and followed. I see zero wrong with any of that. I guess I feel like we have police officers for a reason. When you try to assume the role of the police, and you are not trained to do so, bad things happen. If enough people were to do this, it sort of encourages more people to feel as though they need to be carrying guns because it just isn't safe anymore. Then all the sudden everyone is walking around with guns and these sort of misunderstandings begin occurring exponentially more frequently.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 10:21 AM) I hate having to repeat the same things over and over again. 911 operators have no legal authority. It's like your buddy telling you to not do something. I don't think it is a matter of whether the 911 operator has any legal authority. It goes to the fact that someone that works in an area where they would be exposed to conflicts, crimes, accidents, murders, etc advised him not to continue following Martin. 911 operators are trained on how to advise people who call them, are they not?

QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 10:16 AM) Look at a map of the neighborhood. the sidewalk was between the rows of houses, not bordering the street. That is why Zimmerman had to get out of his car. The only reason to be on that sidewalk is if your house is on that sidewalk. Being unrecognized, he is suspicious. Wait, so it is fine for Zimmerman to carry a gun; that is perfectly legal. But it is suspicious for Martin to be walking around on the sidewalk?

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 09:25 AM) Zimmerman's initial statements to the cops, and the cops testimony that he believed Zimmerman (which I get is self-serving, but you have testimony backing up the credibility of that the night of the shooting). I believe one of the witnesses also testified that he heard them shouting (but didn't see the start) and then when they looked seconds afterwards they saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. It wouldn't make sense that Zimmerman punched Martin and then immediately got thrown to the ground given their respective sizes. I mean all this is context based. I get that. And it's Zimmerman's burden to show that he didn't initiate the fight. I think through the prosecution's witnesses he was able to paint a picture of acting reasonably and justifiable before the fight, even if it was stupid. There was a reason for it. He wasn't just walking around hoping to pick a fight with someone in order to shoot them. I'd argue he was looking to do something of the sort. If he wasn't, what was he doing?

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 09:12 AM) This case is going to be decided by what juror has the strongest will. If Im a juror in that case, I would be hammering away that turning a fist fight into a gun fight that kills someone deserves some punishment. Zimmerman/Martin perhaps both created a dangerous situation, 1 of them is dead, the other deserves something. Had they both just beaten the s*** out of each other, we never hear about this. But when you bring a gun to a fist fight, I think you need to use much more restraint and I would want to make that message clear. You will go to jail if you shoot an unarmed teenager over a fist fight. I agree....I disagree with Jenks that Zimmerman's actions didn't rise to the level of a genuine and imminent threat to Martin. I don't think you should be allowed to exhibit all kinds of threatening behavior, meanwhile you're carrying a gun, and then when your behavior puts your own life in peril, you just fire off your trump card and get to walk off into the sunset unscathed. That seems like bs to me. Zimmerman exhibited threatening behavior (and indeed was carrying a gun). I can't wrap my mind around the fact that someone stalking me in a vehicle and on foot can then shoot me dead when I panic and gain the upper hand in the ensuing altercation. Is Martin dead here because he was younger and a better fighter than Zimmerman? Should he be faulted (and now dead) for that? Self-defense usually revolves around who started the altercation and whether the person in peril had a realistic alternative course of action (rather than using deadly force). I'm not sure, given our current society and the technology and weaponry available to basically any citizen, that we can say that he started this altercation.

It's only 90 today in Vegas.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 11, 2013 -> 08:24 AM) At the very least, this team had 4+ major injuries early in the season, including several of the freak variety. Viciedo, Beckham, Peavy, Floyd. Beckham in particular was the definition of a freak injury, and it's probably going to rob him of some power for the full season. That's pretty rotten luck. Maybe it is helping him remember how to hit though...

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 11, 2013 -> 08:08 AM) This year. THey haven't responded to him this year. They did last year, with mostly the same guys. Yeah, but last year, things went about as well as expected, until the end of the year, when I really thought Robin failed us as a manager. This year, as I expected, things didn't go well at all, and he seemingly has been unable to get them to respond in any form or fashion. Color me unimpressed.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 11, 2013 -> 08:02 AM) With the regime change, we don't know that isn't happening now. Everything I read about Ventura before he was a manager was that he was vocal, he just wasn't vocal in front of people. I remember stories about him taking guys like Frank Thomas aside in the clubhouse behind closed doors to ream them about stuff that happened on the field. I doubt that style has changed now with him as a manager. I read those stories too. Maybe they need a different group then, because these guys certainly have not responded to him.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 11, 2013 -> 08:02 AM) His whole approach at the plate, his K rate, his walk rate, the fact that he seems more concerned with lifting the ball into the air and pulling now instead of accepting the pitch where it is thrown....his total inability to make good decisions on the basepaths, etc. He's just not a leadoff hitter anymore, and he shouldn't be playing CF, either....so he's a defensive liability and his enigmatic mental game has offset anything he's contributed offensively. He's the perfect 4th outfielder on a great team...or a playoff team, even. Gotcha. I probably don't realize these things because I don't watch the games anymore. All I know is he is the 78th ranked player in baseball in the scoring system my fantasy league uses.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 11, 2013 -> 07:57 AM) That only works for Konerko and Matt Thornton as an excuse, really. You can blame age for the disappearing pop from Alexei's bat, but Viciedo at age 24 and DeAza at 29 or 30 are hard to figure out, especially Dayan (granted, his OPS is almost back to 700 after the last two nights, but 775-825 was the goal for this season). Then there was Dunn's "aggressive approach" debacle, the Floyd and Beckham injuries, Keppinger looking more like a AAAA player than a major leaguer and then Flowers, but what Tyler has done was predicted pretty much across the board by most Sox prospect skeptics. I don't get why everyone seems to think De Aza is having a crappy season offensively.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 11, 2013 -> 07:52 AM) I am a big believer in the truth lying in the middle somewhere. This is a team that was in first place as late as two weeks to go in the season last year. Now they are one of the worst teams in baseball? That sort of decline isn't right. That isn't natural. Age decline happens in stages, not in a lemming style cliff jump. Also it hasn't just been the old players. It just goes to show you how much the little things matter...you start going down the wrong road, and no one stands up and says "We're going the wrong way! The town is THAT way!" and all the sudden you look up and you're up s*** creek without a paddle.

QUOTE (pettie4sox @ Jul 11, 2013 -> 07:02 AM) What do you do and where do you work? Sounds Korean to me maybe Chinese. In no way is she Japanese. I think she is Chinese. She does work on all kinds of crazy algorithms and what not for our load (electricity) forecasting models and our weather forecasting models. She's really thin and quite possibly anorexic...I swear she walks up and down the stairs and around the building like a hundred times a day for exercise. She wears all this crazy s*** but no one says anything to her

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 10, 2013 -> 02:41 PM) Because if you trade Sale, you are going to end up trading everything on the roster. And, I mean, it's cool to get back prospects, and some of them turn out, but, well, these things have a tendency to fail and fall apart. Whereas you keep Sale and you already have an ace, plus 2-3 other legitimate starters and a few others on the way, and then you can patchwork an offense back together and make the playoffs. The Giants have won 2 of the last 3 World Series with that exact same philosophy. I'm just not sure that theory works over the course of a season as an AL team. Yes, it works in the NL and it works in the playoffs when the temps are generally much cooler and you can use strategery for a 7 game series, but just not sure we get there.