iamshack

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ May 18, 2012 -> 06:02 PM) Didn't get to see the game. Did anyone from our bench get up? What was the vibe after that hit? I think they were all waiting for the Raiders fans to take care of their dirty work for them...

QUOTE (59th street @ May 18, 2012 -> 04:59 PM) Yep, Robin is a real baseball stand up guy, the previous manager was all talk. oz = Big hat....No Cattle. Aww s***, I forgot about that one! Excellent!

Ok, what happened?

QUOTE (greg775 @ May 18, 2012 -> 03:52 PM) That would not be smart for legality reasons. It might be worth it.

QUOTE (greg775 @ May 18, 2012 -> 03:51 PM) I kind of have a bad feeling bout this inning. Young closer. The Kerry Wood thing. The Samarj bullying the Sox thing. It's all scripted for the Cubs to win. If we win, Becks is the hero. Can you see that storyline standing? If you were within a mile of me, I would seek you out and punch you in the face.

Any update on PK?

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ May 18, 2012 -> 01:47 PM) I love that Len & Bob discuss Fangraphs stats and win expectancy. What do you think about that Hawk? It's not what you hit, it's when you hit it!

QUOTE (chw42 @ May 18, 2012 -> 01:31 PM) Why is Rios hitting in front of A.J. when A.J.'s been on fire recently? Because while AJ was on his huge slide, Rios started knocking some guys in, and so Ventura flipped them. Then the next game, AJ started hitting again...but it's only been 3 games.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ May 18, 2012 -> 10:35 AM) My point is that improvement happens. You and Marty would have traded Matt Kemp two years ago when he was being called a disappointment, not living up to the hype. Whoops! Absolutely not...you watch Kemp and you can tell he's got incredible skills and all five tools...the only question with him is whether or not his head is in the right place. When he was dating Rihanna, I don't think it was... Kemp would be a guy I would have been in love with... For me, this isn't about the patience required or the struggles...it's just about what I see when I watch Viciedo play. OTH, I am certainly not a professional scout, so absolutely take that with a grain of salt.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ May 18, 2012 -> 10:25 AM) This. x10,000 The Konerko comparison is as good as any. A few here act like what DV is now is what he will always be, when we've got a guy right under our noses who's STILL evolving/improving in his mid-to-late thirties. But as I said early in the thread, I'm pretty sure Marty is just playing the "genius" card with this idea, trying to be ahead of the curve (sample size be damned), when it's becoming pretty clear that most of us missed badly in our Beckham evaluations. I'd say PK is the vast vast vast exception, not the rule.

QUOTE (docsox24 @ May 18, 2012 -> 11:23 AM) sorry dude, i wont mention anything about rios then No, tell us about Rios!

QUOTE (docsox24 @ May 18, 2012 -> 11:21 AM) but what kind of dog do you think he is? you wouldn't sell him if he was blur! Blur is very similar to Evan Longoria...

QUOTE (docsox24 @ May 18, 2012 -> 11:19 AM) well my man, you may be in la la land for other reasons! kenny didnt want to sell last year, he thought the sox were in it till the end Not what I wanted to hear, Doc.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 18, 2012 -> 10:56 AM) But you're saying his "value" will increase because he gets hot, implying in the long run he'll never be "worth" more than he will be after a hot streak now. I think its logical to hang on to your best young players when you are rebuilding unless you are offerred something crazy or unless they have some issues like Delmon Young had/has issues. Prospects can have incredible value due to the uncertainty as to what they will ultimately become...the possibility that Viciedo could become the next Adrian Beltre, in a cost-controlled environment, can make him incredibly valuable. If he shows a glimpse of that at the MLB level, it may be enough to convince another scout or GM. But if you honestly don't believe he will become that kind of player, say, you think he ultimately resembles Wily Mo Pena more than Adrian Beltre, than you trade him while there are still other GMs that believe he will become the next Adrian Beltre. This isn't a difficult concept to grasp. It's merely trying to sell high on a stock you think will inevitably be a dog. Now many of you are arguing that the stock is going to be a winner, and not a dog...and that's fine, and a completely different argument. All I'm saying is I think the stock is a dog, and I want to sell it before that becomes apparent. But at the same time, you're telling me the rest of the market is looking at the stock as a dog too...and not really explaining to me why that is...

QUOTE (docsox24 @ May 18, 2012 -> 10:53 AM) Wasn't Beachy, but Minor or Teheran yes. I'd have thought they'd have offered up Beachy before Teheran...I mentioned Teheran about 5 times when those rumors were occurring and everyone told me I was in la la land. If we passed on him I'm quite disappointed.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 18, 2012 -> 08:59 AM) Isn't the final objective to have a roster full of guys that are at their "peak value" ? If you trade Viciedo because you deem his value is high, aren't the guys you acquire going to have high value as well so using the same logic, you'd have to move the player(s) you acquired until you got someone at not peak value, which IMO leads to a mediocre at best organization. TB did make a good move ridding themselves of Delmon Young, so I guess it doesn't ever happen, but in the post steroids era, guys who can hit 30 homers aren't everywhere, and Viciedo doesn't appear to have the other problems Young had. No, your final objective is to have a roster full of players you can afford that produces at their optimal collective rate, so that you win. Prospects and proven players are valued differently, obviously. Prospects are valued based on their ceiling, their potential to blossom into an average or above average major league player, their risk of injury, signability, etc... Proven players are valued based on their expected performance, and to a lesser extent some other qualities, versus their compensation.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 18, 2012 -> 09:01 AM) But then isn't saying get rid of him because he won't pan out and expecting anything decent in return the same thing? No. I haven't argued he isn't worth anything. I've argued that we should trade him when he gets hot for something else we value. The common answer to that is that he doesn't have a lot of value on the trade market. To which I asked, why?

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ May 18, 2012 -> 09:37 AM) I just don't think Viciedo has the trade value now that Beckham did then. At that point, Beckham was selected as the best 2B of the next decade by some MLB.tv segment. You could have traded him for something decent. I just don't think Viciedo will net you that much, because he didn't zoom through the minors and perform exceptionally in the majors immediately like Gordon did. No, you're right, he doesn't...but if he goes on a hot streak for a prolonged amount of time and starts raising awareness, he could certainly be valuable by the trade deadline. Part of what you guys are saying though is humorous to me...Viciedo doesn't have all that much value on the market, but you'd be crazy to trade a guy with these kind of skills! Well which is it? Why is his value what it is on the market? If he is such an incredible hitting prospect, why do the rest of the scouts not see it?

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ May 18, 2012 -> 09:33 AM) I remember that happening about a week or two ago after a certain Detroit SS hit a 9th inning home run It used to be far, far worse, especially because he didn't respect his broadcast partners before Stone...

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ May 18, 2012 -> 07:21 AM) http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/cubs/post/...kes-shot-at-sox Haha, he's right...that is hilarious how Hawk used to get so mad he just wouldn't say anything for a half hour...too funny.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 18, 2012 -> 07:22 AM) This is a good call. Konerko came to the Sox when he was 23. In the NL he hit : 224 AB 7 HR 17 BB 42 K .214 AVG .275 OBP .601 OPS Its amazing how many people want the Sox to totally rebuild but don't have the slightest patience with young players. Really though, comparing two guys because they happen to be on the Sox and also are fairly slow power hitters doesn't really make them alike at all. I'm not going to pretend as though I saw it with Gordon, and in fact, if you really looked, you'd find a thread where I suggested we sign Gordon to a Evan Longoria-type deal in 2009, where we bought out a few of his arbitration and FA years, but are you glad we have showed this much patience with him? Do you wish we could go back now and trade him when he was one of the most-hyped young players in the League?

You guys can make all the comparisons you want...that's perfectly ok with me. Again, I hope you're right, because I don't think Kenny will move him. This isn't about patience with me. It's about trading someone while he has high value while keeping in mind the high attrition rate for prospects as well as my particular opinion in this case. I just don't love his approach, despite his massive power. And ss2k, before you even say it, yes, I understand people are going to disagree with me. I've got absolutely no quarrel with that. But I can live without the veiled insults or the implication that I'm a lunatic. I think I've got enough of a body of work around here to get a little slack when it comes to opining on WS players without playing devil's advocate or being negative to be negative.

QUOTE (shakes @ May 17, 2012 -> 10:28 PM) Yes. To me it is crazy. What do you expect to get for him? His best value is to stay with the team and give him a chance to realize his potential. I don't want to go the A's route and trade young players for multiple younger players. Let him develop. Doesn't matter, Kenny went out on a limb with Dayan and he isn't bailing now. I agree in regards to Kenny. One other point...anyone who reads what I have been posting here for the past 6 years knows I do not often talk about trading our young players...and I've also been accused of being one of the more optimistic posters here...and always slurping the kool-aid...so I think it's pretty clear that I'm not just pulling the Debbie Downer routine, or the trade everyone routine, or the everyone in a White Sox uniform sucks routine.

QUOTE (Jake @ May 17, 2012 -> 10:21 PM) We don't know what the "usual" Dayan Viciedo is. The minor league Viciedo seemed to be a ~.300 BA, 25 HR, 100 RBI guy in a 162 game schedule. That was a young man in a new country, so I have to wonder if his ceiling at this level is even higher as he gets older and better at baseball. You sure as hell aren't going to acquire someone with more physical tools. You guys are going to have to get off the nuts of the OPS stat, btw. Don't know why that is the foundation of comparing offensive players. A lot of minor league players have put up those numbers. Doesn't mean much. As for the OPS stat, you can use whatever stats you'd like...just make sure they account for his on-base challenges... As for his physical tools...he hits the s*** out of the ball...when he squares it up on pitches he actually has a chance to hit hard...problem is, he swings as hard as he can at basically every pitch he decides to swing at...and I don't know that that will ever change. But, I accept your opinion that it may. I'm just stating my opinion that I think it won't.

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ May 17, 2012 -> 10:07 PM) I'm confused. Now we're talking about trading Dayan Viciedo for a young hitter with some upside? Isn't that Dayan Viciedo? And who is this magical trade partner? Don't teams trading for young talent usually want to give up expensive veterans? Why do we want expensive veterans? I don't think anyone's said that specifically. Trade him for someone you like more than Dayan...it's not as if we couldn't use more valuable assets.