quickman

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 04:29 PM) KW and Minaya are sitting next to each other at the Futures game. If it happens, that would be fine. However, I don't see them trading Garland on the day they bring back Buehrle. KW is talking on espn2 right now. agreed, but you know something is coming. has too.

QUOTE(Linnwood @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 04:27 PM) If you think people are acting immature, perhaps you should start by setting an example. I agree, i just read about 1000 posts with all kinds of garbage language despite the moderators plea to stop this nonsense. That said its their board, but I try to refrain from the language and may spin things differently and many times fall to level of a teenager. keeps me young.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 04:24 PM) Good thing we know he got locked up, as Matt Kemp got pulled from the Dodgers game after one at-bat. Who knows, maybe we're trading Contreras and Dye for him? or garland.

QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 04:19 PM) You try to talk on the internet with your Depends™ full of poop and see how grumpy and bitter you are. right I forgot how smart you are. QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 04:19 PM) You try to talk on the internet with your Depends™ full of poop and see how grumpy and bitter you are. Oh that reminds me I need to go and change, but thankfully I have you to remind me. Your so good.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 04:13 PM) Ah yes, another vintage Jerry Reinsdorf hardcore negotiation is in the books. To those who said it was too close not to happen, kudos. The team knew they could cave at anytime, and really not give up that much more, and they got away with it as usual. Welcome to being a legend in Chicago Mark Also the line for Kenny Williams apolgies starts here---> : Yes my point exactly and once again nicely put.

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 04:12 PM) Wow, you are just a bitter, bitter old man, aren't you? I am as old as you! and I am not bitter at all. I really could care less, but if you look back on this thread I saw so many people swearing at sox management and the moderators letting everything go. Now management does what everyone seemed to have wanted. I just thought I would call it out. Quite frankly having buerhle on or off the team means nothing to me, like i have said before the team needs to be competitive and win. Right now they are not winning.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 04:10 PM) Please.....get your old ass off the high horse. I will never take back what I said about KW, that doesn't change at all. I give JR credit though. Your so accountable

Let me say this there is no doubt garland goes now, along with Contraras, I am one that didn't really care if they signed buerhle and still don't but this means others will not get signed and will put a crimp in what we spend in the offseason. The payroll will stay the same as this year so again math needs to be done. Now for those who slammed JR and KW. For all the people swearing on the board and cussing at sox management please put some mustard on those crap sandwiches your about to eat. He gave you teenagers what you wanted, I hope a million dollars a win is good enough, and please try to get to the park more often to spend your macdonalds money OH AND MAKE SURE YOU STRAIGHTEN YOUR NAME TAGS.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 03:44 PM) I doubt he'll be willing to sign a deal in the White Sox price Range. I can't see him taking a discount similar to the one Buehrle took and I can't see the Sox agreeing to a 5 year $70M+ deal like he'll be looking for. Agreed. garland is now the best trading chip. Trade him now. He can bring back big things.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 03:41 PM) That's just awesome!!!! Now trade Contreras, Dye, etc., and keep Buehrle, Garland, Vazquez, and Danks together. Thank you JR and Kenny....and Mrs. Buehrle and soon-to-be-born baby Buehrle. You will not have the money. garland will go now. he will not be resigned.

QUOTE(greasywheels121 @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 08:16 AM) I'm one of the biggest Frank fans ever, and I've got to say those two situations are incomparable. Regardless what Frank has done/will do since leaving the Sox, he's at the end of his career and his skills aren't what they used to be. His ankle was too risky to depend on, despite his two infield singles last night. On the other hand, Buehrle's no where near the end of his career, and his numbers back that claim up. Hence, there's definitely plenty of reason to blink at the Buehrle situation, if we don't re-sign him or get an impressive haul in return for trading him. Frank left the sox and had a great year last year and is playing pretty well this year. Its true they are at different points, but my point is the euphoria centered around the player itself. Buerhle cannot be part of a rebuild, if you keep buerhle then you keep garland, that will be two pitchers who will be a third of your payroll. The math doesn't work. You need to get more guys like Danks in here, and build from there. Just the math alone doesn't work

QUOTE(mmmmmbeeer @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 07:47 AM) MB is very overrated on this site, always has been. He's referred to as "elite" or as an "ace" way too often. It's like people think that we're dealing with Peavy or Santana here. This franchise will survive without MB. You think $14M in today's market is a steal, but would you freak out if they gave Garland $14M? They're the same pitcher. If our payroll drops dramatically next season, which it will, we're not going to compete. Why, if we're not going to compete, would you want $14M of the payroll to go towards one player who pitches once every 5 days. He's never even won 20 games in his career, it's not like every 5th day you're practically guaranteed a victory. He's a good pitcher, no doubt, but far from irreplaceable. No player should be making $14M/yr on a team in its first year of a rebuilding process. Although I certainly won't shed a tear when he's gone and will be happy when we realize the payroll flexibility his release offers next season, I really don't like the way the Sox handled this. 2 weeks ago KW should have said MB is on the table and any team can have the 72hr negotiation window. It's almost as if KW got caught inbetween on this, like he changed his mind in the middle of negotiations. This is not something a GM should do. He should have a plan and stick with it. Instead of going full bore ahead with the decision to trade MB and get maximum value in return, he instead considered resigning him and went ahead with negotiations. The negotiations start, are made public, potential trade partners get discouraged, the public gets their hopes up. Then KW changes his mind again and decides MB isn't in his plans. So now he's got a pissed off fan base. MB's agent, as a negotiation play, has now declared that MB will hit the FA market, killing his trade value. Just horribly played by KW, I mean absolutely butchered job of managing the situation and his team. You couldn't have scripted a worse scenario. Again, it just really proves that a GM MUST have a plan in place and execute on that plan. He's got a chance to redeem himself and get some value back, but it will now be a VERY difficult task to do so. Edited to add: For those of you wanting KW gone after this, don't think JR isn't noticing how badly KW handled this. JR is a good business man who understands the importance of strong management. This wishy-washy, non-committal mode of "management" that KW just displayed couldn't have gone unnoticed. This is the type of situation that can cost someone their job. I don't think JR gives a s*** about losing MB, that's not why KW would be canned as many of you imply. He does give a s*** about incompetence. I like your post very much and would add if the sox were in first or second place right now competing to win the division then they would sign him but now they realize how far away they are, at least in this division and they need to sell off. I would hate for konerko, Beurhle , thome, and vasquez to be half of our payroll. It makes no sense as you get older and slower. I also think that many teams out there do not view buerhle as a Number 1. That lowers his value as well. There are only a few teams that will pay more than 14 million for this guy and those are the usual suspects, like New York, the red sox, the angels and quite possibly the Cubs. Just my opinon. The twins will be in the same spot with santanna soon. He is as good as gone, but he is a guy I break the bank for and give the no trade clause.

QUOTE(Wanne @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 11:33 PM) I swear...if KW and Jerry f*** this up...there is gonna be such a backlash. Why would they risk that? Why would they deal the most valuable piece of the orginization? I know everybody will jump my s*** for saying this...calling me a "non fan" and all...but if they trade Mark...or balk at all of this...it will be a LOOOOONG friggin time before I give a s*** what this team does. The sox released Frank Thomas the best player in their history. Nothing happened, attendance went up and on paper they were a better team. If you still loved the sox after Thomas why would you blink at the buerhle situtation. QUOTE(elrockinMT @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 11:51 PM) Just watched the 12 Midnight edition of ESPN BBTN. They are saying the Sox refused the alternate offer made by Buerhle's camp for a 17M dollar 5th year type buyout or contract addition if traded. They said it isn't anything different than Ostwalt has with the Astros. The Sox said no and the analysts said Sox managemnt must be crazy. Of course this is a business right. The fans don't matter any because it's just our money after all that keeps these teams in business. This is just plain wrong if true. agreed but they are betting you keep watching and go to games. I actaully still know some very old friends that have still not gone back to the park after the white flag trade. They feel better knwoing they won't make the Sox wealthy. Try that. Don't go. And for the record I would rather have Oswalt.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 10:09 PM) Good reply. I am not sure what people expect from the Sox, but I can think of one time in the history of Jerry Reinsdorf owning Chicago teams that he gave one player a s***load of money out of no where. Then again, that guy made he and his partners more money than they probably ever dreamed of. Hell, even if you look at the 2005 team, they made that team by making smart/cheap moves to maximize payroll. Jermaine Dye was brought in after injuries dirt cheap, no one wanted AJ, Tadahito started out looking for 3 years at 8 million per, and got 2 years at 2 million each. We got Uribe for Miles, Crede had about worn out his welcome. The entire Soxnation wanted Jon Garland shipped to Siberia. Bobby Jenks was claimed off of waivers, and Dustin Hermanson was laughed at when we signed him. My point is, no JR owned team goes around throwing money at problems. They know they can give MB just a tiny bit more at any time to get him back for four years, but they are going to make sure to maximize their gains on him. Why is everyone acting like this is a big surprise. Study your history, and this has been happening for almost 30 years. If you also look back, JR has also been the most successful owner the Bulls have ever seen, and the most successful owner the Sox have had in about 90 years. Duh. Any hate for Kenny Williams and John Paxson over contracts is misplaced. Blame ownership before you blame GMs. YES and YES, Damn why didn't you come out earlier, much better response than mine. This is business as usual. Call it what you want, but JR has given into fandom only a few times. Usually they centered around championship seasons or near championship seasons. We suck this year and its time to rebuild. They really don't want to spend money, they want young cheap talent, just like they always wanted.

QUOTE(TitoMB345 @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 10:03 PM) I can't believe this franchise is going down the s***ter so quickly. I bet attendence drops DRASTICALLY from the day Buehrle is traded. f***, I don't know if I'm gonna go to any more games. He's my favorite. It's like Michael Vick, you pay him to fill the seats, no matter how much he wants. Micheal Vick? he has won nothing and his coach doesn't even want him. Plus he is in trouble with the law. I wouldn't pay that guy a dime.

QUOTE(aboz56 @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 10:01 PM) I wouldn't blame Williams, I am sure Reinsdorf gets the final call. I agree especially when it comes to 56 million.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 09:58 PM) I disagree with your opinion on never seeing these guys. My most trusted "source" sees hundreds of minor league games each year, and he's able to give me good reports on these guys. I probably have a better idea of what type of players these minor leaguers are than 99 pct of the people on here. Oh well....hopefully we'll get some guys that are in the majors now. Well good, then your in the know and you can tell us if we get good return. I know where your heart is and its in the right place, but we need to change this team. Whther its beurhle , garland, konerko, AJ anyone. Doesn't really matter. We have no minor leaguer despite the great evaluations the geniuses on this site claim, so we need to trade for some young talented players.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 09:48 PM) Even though I'm mad now, I'll be ok with everything if we get good value in return. fathom, you have no idea what good value is because most of the players you get back you have never seen play. You will go by what others say and it will take some time to evaluate. My point is, this team is going nowhere with the players we have therefore somethign needs to change. You cannot get good return for crap players but you can get good return for your best players. The best players on a crap team. SELL why you can. Crede is now damaged goods,the whiteos suspected he would get hurt and they took the chance. They got burned.He cannot be moved until he can prove again that he can play, but this is the year to have moved him if he could play. We are losing, Individual stats mean nothing UNLESS you use them to trade people. QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 09:51 PM) This is the lowest I've ever thought of the Sox organization. They claim to reward there own but if they were never interested in coming to terms with Mark than why even bother negotiating with him. Why not just tell him he's not in the clubs plans. Doesn't Mark deserve at least that as opposed to him and his life getting completely dicked around for the past two weeks as the Sox put together meaningless negotiations. Sure this deal could turn out fine for the Sox but the way they handled this situation embarrasses me as a fan. This ranks right there with the complete embarrassment that was the White Flag trade (and while that deal worked out talent wise, it is still one of the most embarrassing moments in this teams franchise and to a point baseball history). So Kenny, as one of your biggest supporters I just want to say f*** you for continuing to be classless with the way you handle the organizations own. Please prove me wrong, but I'm sure you won't. And if the org wanted to move Konerko they could and they would get an absolute ransom for him. Overpaid, bad contract...maybe a couple years ago when he's in his last year you could make that case but not right now. The they should trade Konerko too. If you think they could get a kings ransom, then trade him. Because right now he is 15 million of our payroll on a close to last place team. Trade him.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 09:38 PM) Well he's refering to a signing where we "bent our rules", Paulie was bad for a while this year, and he keeps saying "sell, sell, sell" so I can't tell. Needs to use some green if he's being sarcastic and it's not obvious. Actually I don't think Konerko was worth the money. I'm not talking about bending rules. I think they signed him coming off a big year with lots of Euphoria. I am not his biggest fan, but regardless we have him, I just don't think they really wanted to sign him either. My point was I think they gave in, especially coming off the World series year. If it were this year I think they would try to move him and not resign him which is what they are doing with buerhle.Just my opinion.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 09:38 PM) Well he's refering to a signing where we "bent our rules", Paulie was bad for a while this year, and he keeps saying "sell, sell, sell" so I can't tell. Needs to use some green if he's being sarcastic and it's not obvious. Actually I don't think Konerko was worth the money. I'm not talking about bending rules. I think they signed him coming off a big year with lots of Euphoria. I am not his biggest fan, but regardless we have him, I just don't think they really wanted to sign him either. My point was I think they gave in, especially coming off the World series year. If it were this year I think they would try to move him and not resign him which is what they are doing with buerhle.Just my opinion.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 09:34 PM) LMAO!!! Do you watch our games? Paulie is on fire, now at .263/.360/.495, and his OBP and SLG are both back to his career norms. He's on pace to set a career high for walks and have at 30 plus doubles (maybe set a new career high in that) and still on pace to hit about 30 homers (and climbing by the day). And he has had NO lineup protection behind him all season. Pass the crack over here, please. I am sure your on crack. He is not worth the money.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 09:29 PM) They got my money all day yesterday, and they should be f***ing ashamed of themselves. KW basically lucked into the 2005 offseason.....hell, he traded Carlos Lee for Barbaro. I have given them 15k this year and they have easily gotten a quarter million from me over the last 10 years. Do you think I am not aware of what this team does? Do you also think I care whether beurhle gets 15 wins and we end up in fourth place. I could care less about buehrle or any other damn stat these millionaries make. I do care if this team plays hard, competes, and are in it all summer. right now I really don't care who is traded. Get some new blood.

QUOTE(RME JICO @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 09:26 PM) The problem is that you never trade quality starting pitching, because you will never get the value back in a trade. Look at the best teams in the league every year, there is one thing in common, top notch starting pitching. That is not a coincidence. agreed, but we are not in contention and won't be for a few years. We are old and slow. We have nobody in the minors, and are far from competing in this division. Therefore you rebuild, and if you believe you cannot contend next year or even the year after then you start getting players back. YOU SELL. That is what they really want to do. They will tell the public different, because they want to sell tickets but you should be smarter than that. They have the fourth highest payroll in the A league and they are horrible. YOU SELL. You rebuild, and now is the time because alot of contracts are coming up.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 09:17 PM) http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2929267 If it's true the Sox declined that extra year option if he was traded, then they obviously don't want him on the team for the next four years. This is total f***ing bulls*** now, and this organization will deserve all the s*** they receive in the next week. I can't wait for KW to trade for more underachieving 24 year old pitchers who they think they can fix by what they see on the video. Fathom this is the same owner and GM that brought you the world series. The same principals applied then as they do now. The very best way to speak to the owner is not to go to the park. They are counting on you to go. Don't go and don't watch, otherwise the whitesox are run the exact same way as they were two years ago. In fact I am sure KW and JR are kicking themselves at signing konerko. Right now he is worthless. They won't make that mistake again.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 09:08 PM) When did I say we'd become the Pirates? I'm just saying you can't win a World Series by ignoring the biggest agent in baseball and not giving any no trade clauses. That isn't to say we'll suck, but if we go that route we have to win by drafting well and making a lot of good trades, and although we've done part 2 of that under KW, we have not done part 1. Plus, we're in a pretty good division, so I'm not counting on success unless policies change, and that goes for the GM and Owner. Those 2 could win, but policies must change and 2 men that stubborn don't strike me as types that will adjust to a changing market. It appears we won the world series two years ago and we didn't have anyone with an NTC. It also appears we have a 100 million dollar payroll this year, minus a few million and we are close to last place. Losing Buerhle does not mean we will fall to last place and does not mean we will be in first. Quite frankly if this team is to get better we NEED to trade players now and get good young players in return. Buerhle brings us value and because our inor league system sucks which I have been saying for a long time and many many people disagreed with me every damn day, we are now in a position to trade one of our favorite players. Its ok, because if we do sign him we still will not have the team to win next year. Face the facts, with or without beurhle we will not win next year. So Kenny needs to make a big decision and that is do the whitesox start selling off piece meal for the next two years beginning now and acquiring players for the next 5 years. That is what is happening right now. Now if we keep beurhle the very next guy that could bring us great value is garland. He then goes on the block and all you 18 year olds who haven't made a dime in your life will be crowing about what a great value he is at 15 million. The job of an exec is to look at many things at one time, and completely evaluate and predict. If you keep beurhle garland leaves. I am telling you, he goes, because nothing else on this team brings back that kind of value. If I am kw I trade Beurhle and garland, and crede and Dy. clean house and get the players you want. Its really the only way, otherwise you will have a big fat payroll, and a 4th place team.