caulfield12

QUOTE (Buehrlesque @ May 13, 2015 -> 01:02 PM) I think the bolded is true of everyone's postulates in this thread. No one's technically "right" or "wrong" because it can't fully be proven. And it doesn't have to be 100% "Sox fans are excuse-making, fickle jerks" OR 100% "Sox team doesn't win enough or try to" anyway. It's probably a combination of things. I think both camps are right to an extent. Sox fans are fickle (and skeptical) — it's not enough for the team to be good (2012) or for management to put an "all in" effort to make the team good (2011, 2015). The front office has to generate a lot of buzz in the offseason AND the team has to play really well in the ensuing season. Unfortunately, this has NEVER happened in recent White Sox memory. Either the team has been unexpectedly good with lower expectations (2008, 2012) or they've been built up with acquisitions and expectations and then thoroughly disappointed (2011, 2015 among others). Sox fans don't buy in in either scenario. The stuff about the Sox being a small market team because of city market share and unresponsive fans, while based in fact and somewhat true, is overblown. The Sox can spend, and have spent. The frustrating part there is that management has put the effort into winning to attract fans, and the team always disappoints in those circumstances, which turns off the fans! At the same time, there are tons of other facts limiting attendance (location, aesthetics, etc.) If the Sox had a beautiful, super new or super retro-new, downtown stadium, they would draw more easily. Unfortunately, they don't. I like the Cell, but objectively it's a generic-looking stadium, without an "aura," located substantially out of the way of the heart of the city. To me, it's an inertia thing. More fans being at the park begets more fans coming to the park. When there's no one there (often the result of a bad team), the park looks empty, lifeless and uninspiring. Truth is, perception (fair or not) is reality. It doesn't inspire someone watching at home to come out. Even if that random fan watching at home did want to go to a game, they know there's no reason to buy a ticket in advance when they could get it day of game and wait to see their home/work schedule, weather, pitching match ups, etc. And so by the time that game rolls around, they find a weather problem or a work problem or whatever other excuse to prevent them from going to the game. Basically, I think it takes commitment and execution from both sides — the team and the fans. The team has to build a winner AND they have to win to get the ball rolling. The fans have to come out and support it. I don't think Sox fans will ever just blindly come out to the Cell, it's just not going to happen. Once the ball is rolling, the rest will begin to take care of itself: more winning means more fans, which means more need to buy tickets in advance, which means more fans committing to coming out in advance regardless of match ups, weather, etc. The opposite — lots of walk up sales for a surprisingly serious late season contender — can happen as well: I remember the insane walk-up crowds late summer 2003 . But that is far less reliable. So I do think the onus is on the Sox to start it out, and it is a little more difficult than it is for other major league team, but that's just the way it is. Good news is, if they ever get it right, the effects could be longer-lasting than we've seen. Remember, the Sox were awful in 2007, yet still drew 2.6 million. They'd kill for that kind of number today. Why did they draw so well? Previous seasons' success raised fan interest and forced/inspired them to buy in advance! So the tickets were already sold before the team tanked. These are among the best posts in the thread because they're well-thought out, logical and reasonable. Everyone is right, and nobody is right. There's no way to be 100% right, so we take extreme positions and speak in hyperbolic terms in order to get the point across. There's no "proving" a point, because you have an entrenched, nearly unchangeable viewpoint. (I'd argue one of the best marketing strengths of the front office has actually been inculcating the feeling in the fanbase that they're somehow lesser, not loyal, should feel guilty...not supporting the team as much as they should, thus the "can't spend $1.00 if you only have 50 cents" type of comments). I posted an article from early 2011 that the number of local Chicago/Illinois fans attending games for the White Sox and Cubs was almost exactly identical...with the 25% split or difference being out-of-state/tourism related fans, or Wrigleyville "social experience" yuppier partygoers. If the White Sox have LOST fans from that point on, it's their own fault...because the Cubs were going into a prolonged rebuilding period. They had huge opportunities in 2006-07 and then again 2011-2014 (specifically 2011) and they blew both by a wide margin.

QUOTE (ptatc @ May 13, 2015 -> 04:36 PM) They also have a different situation where they own the team and answer to no one. Reinsdorf is a minority owner of the team. He is the Chairman of the Board but that's it. He cannot just spend into negative revenues. It's not his money. And that's what it would take, IMO, to truly change the culture. A completely new ownership group with deeper pockets or a stadium located in a different area of the city. Everything else is just rearranging deck chairs on a sinking ship unless they show the ability to put a consistently playoff-contending team on the field. (That means 75% of the time, not every other season...and not completely whiffing on "all in" or close to it years like 2011 and 2015 at the very beginning of the season).

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ May 13, 2015 -> 04:30 PM) Look at the Angels. Consistently 2nd fiddle in the LA / OC market until they won the world series...they followed that up with multiple division titles and have been consistent contenders for the past decade. Payroll went through the roof and attendance was extremely strong. Sox could have been similar but they couldn't consistently make the playoffs (they consistently contended but fell short too often vs. building some serious momentum). Right, and there you have an owner who basically challenged the Dodgers and said "we're coming after you!" Of course, the irony is they won the World Series under passive Disney corporate ownership but haven't gotten close to that with Moreno, despite all the free spending, Mike Trout, one of the best managers in the game in Scioscia, etc. Angels tickets (at least when I went over a decade ago) aren't/weren't expensive....same with the Dodgers. It's a volume business out there with the population base being what it is. I still don't think we've met the bar of finding a single team whose fans CONSISTENTLY support their team (no matter what) after going through 7-8 non-playoff seasons (with one playoff team without a chance to advance because of the Quentin injury), and only competitive in roughly half of those seasons (2006-08-10-12)....versus 07/09/11/13/15. The Cubs... The Tigers...50% due to Mike Illitch personally (under Monaghan, not so much in the attendance department after 1987) If you look at all the Midwestern teams (once you get back the Cubs and Cards), you have a LOT of similar teams in terms of fanbase, demographics and economic impact/s from 2007-2008. Cleveland Pittsburgh Cincy Minnesota KC The team that has done consistently well without being a great team...probably the closest example is the Brewers. How much of that is the new stadium, the move to the NL, the fact that the Commissioner's office helped leveraged support directly and indirectly...being a one-market city, etc. If you want to argue Brewers fans are less fickle and more loyal, then I'll bite on that one. Otherwise, White Sox fans are VERY similar to fans in the five other markets mentioned above. They all support winners and tend to be skeptical by nature...even Twins' fans never believed in their team 100%, that they had the ability to advance in the playoffs (despite winning 6 of 9 AL Central championships).

QUOTE (LDF @ May 13, 2015 -> 02:41 PM) i don't understand, why is Balta fickle??? what is the reason that makes him so?? just wondering. Because he is being realistic/pragmatic instead of blindly optimistic.

QUOTE (iamshack @ May 13, 2015 -> 12:59 PM) What the A's did, while perhaps suggestive of rebuilding for others, is their standard operating procedure at this point. And Josh Donaldson is still one of the best players in the game. That was all Beane's ego. As an Oakland fan that move would make me furious.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 13, 2015 -> 12:40 PM) And if anyone ever wants to make the neighborhood argument, go to a game in Detroit, and get back to me. Old stadium, yes. Now the area surrounding the park is similar, if not better, than USCF. And how many times did Illitch have negative revenues? He's like Cuban....fans perceive he cares more about winning the World Series than his bottom line. That is something his (Reinsdorf's) supporters won't or can't argue. Illitch is an anomaly (a la Steinbrenner), just like the Cubs with their unique situation.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 13, 2015 -> 08:52 AM) The Twins have averaged 95.5 losses the last 4 years, their attendance has blown the White Sox away. Of course in 2005, when the team was never not in first place and won the WS, a 3 game home series vs. KC in September drew a total of 50k. New stadium.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ May 13, 2015 -> 08:51 AM) And yet the team continues to grow its revenues every year, just like every other baseball team, because no matter how many times we have this conversation, everyone keeps pretending like it's 1980 and the internet and regional sports cable networks don't exist. Everyone is just going to HAVE to accept the fact that going to the game is no longer the most attractive option for following a baseball team. The ballpark experience is unique and valuable, but if you're a "die-hard" fan and want to follow the action, there's a better and cheaper option in your living room. Fortunately, the teams ARE being compensated handsomely for these channels, too. Amen. And hence the cost/benefit choice this offseason to attempt to push the window up a season. Plus, watching the Cubs completely dominate Chicago baseball media/public discussion probably didnt sit too well...hence the acquisition of Samardzija.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 13, 2015 -> 08:37 AM) White Sox tickets are by far the cheapest tickets in town. Cubs/Bulls/Bears/Blackhawks are all WAY more expensive. Hawks fans spend $100 for SRO against a no name team. White Sox fans can get into the upper Deck for $5 on a Sunday. That was FAR from true 3-4 seasons ago. They finally lowered prices from higher levels when it was already too late...the team had missed the playoffs for too long and the 2011 disaster happened. Fans actually perceive cheap tickets to be a lesser value than much higher prices for an exciting/interesting/entertaining product.

And besides the unique/historic nature of Wrigley Field, the Sox brought on a lot of problems themselves with SportsVision...ceding Harry Caray, the respective radio networks, Budweiser, WGN, Sammy Sosa....always beaten in the marketing battle since the days of Rob Gallas. And Reinsdorf always had too much pride to let Mike Veeck help him.

A Cubs survey last year found that 37 percent of fans (13,991 out of 37,814 per game in 2010) come from outside of the state, and 56 percent of those fans come solely to see a game. That includes the commuters from northwest Indiana, of course, but we're still talking about thousands of fans who come to tell their friends back in Polk County they saw Wrigley Field. If that 37 percent is valid, it basically means that just as many Illinoisans go to White Sox games as Cubs games. A White Sox official told me that the club's latest poll showed 13 percent of fans (3,522 out of 27,091 per game) said they were from Indiana or "other." http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/colu...&id=6278204 Basically, at the start of the 2011 season...the Cubs and White Sox were almost dead even in terms of "local" fans. This despite ticket prices and parking being among the 5-7 most expensive in MLB. Then we went through a period of dynamic pricing (aka gouging) only to finally realize the true depth of the problem entering the 2013 season. Sox fans aren't fickle. They're just fed up with mediocrity and insults. They supported the team well for two more non-playoff seasons before 2007 wiped out a lot of their enthusiasm.

What team (besides the Cubs, and they made the playoffs more often than the White Sox over the last 30 years) has had a consistently loyal fanbase over roughly a decade of mostly being a bit above average but rarely making a playoff run? The Indians, Orioles, Blue Jays, Mariners and Rockies all were among the attendance leaders roughly 15-20 years ago. Same with the DBacks and Astros for that matter. Their fanbases aren't much different than us. They just want to win too. Indians fans used to pack Jacobs Field year after year....of course, they had an extended run of playoff teams. But blowing up your franchise multiple times (2002-2003 and 2008) will demoralize even the most loyal fans. Does it help Dolan now to blame them? You reap what you sew.

QUOTE (LDF @ May 13, 2015 -> 05:19 AM) the uncertainty should be that wildcard. not b/c of what you posted, but b/c no one knows what will happen not be able to predict or assume anything. i guess i look at it in a more pragmatic way. for me, build or rebuild the farm system. have players at different level in their developmental stages, hopefully 1 will become a good player. by the meaning of different levels, i mean when 1 player leaves thru FA, there will be another one to step in. re the bold, i do not mean to nitpick, or maybe i am misunderstanding this, but those will not be around till 2019, b/c of the length of their contract. Sale, Abreu, Q, Avi, Rodon, Eaton....that group.

Stanton hit one all the way out of Chavez Ravine. 5th in history.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 9, 2015 -> 04:13 PM) One of the media writers at the DC-political magazine Politico gave this interesting description of how the media is looking at the race with Hillary Clinton: Greg happy! Hulk smash!

QUOTE (LDF @ May 12, 2015 -> 09:28 PM) i am with you on the bad location. and you are right about the 2 million. the sox will always be the 2nd fiddle in baseball in chicago, esp in the location they are in. there is no appeal factor there. so win WS's and that can help the attendance. i don't b**** b/c i like to b****, i don't rag on the owners b/c i hate them. well i do when they try to insult my intelligence. Justt getting to the playoffs in 2 of 3 seasons feels like a minor miracle. Not expecting a World Series win anytime soon.

LaRoche could have PH there but LHP W.Smith would have nullified that. Better to stay with the hot hand in Sale.

Hard to get too upset there with Sale. If you're going to go down, let it be with your best pitcher battling his butt off to get a win.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 12, 2015 -> 07:14 PM) Again, the last time the team made the playoffs, attendance fell, both that season, and the year after. With how disappointing Peavy and Rios were...why would fans have had a right to be optimistic heading into 2010? For Gordon Beckham alone...well, he really fell off in the second half aand struggled to make .270.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 12, 2015 -> 07:14 PM) Again, the last time the team made the playoffs, attendance fell, both that season, and the year after. If Carlos Quentin wins MVP, doesnt get hurt and they arent wiped out by the Rays in easy fashion...then 2009 is a totally different story. Once CQ was out, it was just survival mode. I dont think even the most optimistic Sox fans expected a different result in the Dome with the way the Rays played that season.

QUOTE (scs787 @ May 12, 2015 -> 07:43 PM) Wow, I was reading the first 5 pages during the bulls game and thought the Sox were getting blown out. Just now flipped it over and really, just 2-2??? Game threads sure are fun. Making a terrible pitcher look good...and waiting halfway through the game to mount any type of offensive attack will do that.

QUOTE (Condor13 @ May 12, 2015 -> 07:26 PM) Micah just stole on a gun from the catcher He had a great running jump.

Probably be changed to a hit later when/if the no hitter is broken up. Another difficult play. Kept the ball from getting through to preserve the lead.

QUOTE (jdupps @ May 12, 2015 -> 06:44 PM) That guy is currently leading all of baseball with 10 errors. The problem is plays like Johnson didn't make that have to be made and aren't ruled errors because of the agenda of scorekeepers to give away stolen bases to Carlos Gomez.

Still havent come close to a clean game defensively on the road...constantly forcing our pitchers to throw extra pitches. No adjustments offensively to the shifts. Making a pretty terrible pitcher look like Cy Young, as usual. No hat tipping tonight. Just bad.