caulfield12

Dunn and Peavy, yes. Rios, not so much. Everyone in baseball (message board fans included) knew the pro's and con's with Rios. It was a huge financial gamble, largely caused by failure on the part of KW to competently develop a CF internally (namely, Brian Anderson). And there were lots of concerns about Peavy's delivery/mechanics, pitching in the AL and being acquired while injured. But yeah, most applauded the move because at the time we were giving up what amounted to a long reliever/5th starter, Poreda (who most had already given up on as a starter at that point), Russell and Carter. So it was a very low cost in terms of talent surrendered for a former Cy Young winner. That's a move most fanbases would get behind, as long as they weren't writing the checks personally.

Peavy is the other player who seems to "get it." Unfortunately, without his best stuff, he's just an average pitcher in the AL, more like a 4th starter. From everything you read about that injury, just like TJ, it's expected that eventually full capacity will be there at 100% over the next 12 months...improving as he builds up his strength, muscle memory, getting better and better, but it's not there yet and he probably pushed himself too hard again. The coaching staff absolutely has to reign him in, or they'll completely destroy any benefit we might be receiving from that contract in 2012 and 2013.

I'll state this again. At least through May 2009, Ozzie was 51-47 against Gardenhire. You could have argued we were outcoached/outmanaged down the stretch in 2006, but there were a number of well-documented reasons that team finally ran out of gas. You had 2003, but that could be placed on Manuel. But 7-30? To go from a winning record to putting up the worst record in baseball of any team against another (with over 20 games played) during that time period. That's almost impossible to do, even if you try. There has to be a deeper explanation which nobody in the White Sox organization seems to be able to acknowledge, admit or comes to terms with.

Yeah, like Javy, Rios, Swisher and Orlando Cabrera were. Make-up and the mental side of the game are often a lot more important than pure physical talent. Heck, that's the main reason Daniel Hudson was traded....because he wasn't "tough enough" for the pennant race last year. But Edwin Jackson and one of the roving instructors (Darryl Boston) seemed to think it was perfectly okay to laugh and play/joke around at the end of game yesterday...the laugh's really on the fans for ever believing in them. And Jackson sure hasn't been "Chicago tough" this year. Dunn, too. With Gavin Floyd, he has the same "mental" issues that Alexei Ramirez is constantly being sniped at with or accused of lacking....something "missing" upstairs that all the great players seem to have. I just don't get why our team has so many players you have to question their mental approach to the game. Beckham, Rios, Quentin...the list goes on and on. Seemingly the only players who have conquered this issue are Buehrle, Konerko and AJ, ironically the only players still left from 2005. And Konerko had an immense struggle mentally to get to the current "autopilot" that he's on. I don't think it's a coincidence that we really started to lose to the Twins in 2009. By that time, the majority of the 2005 team had already been deconstructed and sent packing. The only other players still around at that time were Jenks and Dye. Greg Hibbard pointed out that the Tigers were something like 15-30 against us in the middle of the decade. That's okay, as long as you beat the other teams in the division...and they did reach the World Series in 2006, after all. But 7-30? The Tigers still won twice as many games as we have against the Twins...and the Twins' teams in 2009 and 2011 were nowhere near as good as that 05-06-07 Tigers team in terms of overall talent. In the back of their minds, they just EXPECTED the Twins to come back yesterday and that the game was far from over, you just had a feeling, despite all the good vibes from the offensive explosion. Someone wrote something to that effect in the game thread, and they were right on target with their prediction of an impending implosion.

QUOTE (Pale Sox @ Jul 9, 2011 -> 01:39 AM) The only guys in the lineup performing better than most expected are our two remaining 2005 members. Quentin's at about what people expected, given his health, and the rest are well below. I'm not sure what to make of this, but I find it interesting. You can make an argument that Alexei is at his "natural" home of a 725-775 OPS at shortstop as well.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_leagu...urn=mlb-wp11986

"I felt good at the beginning, and as the game went on, I lost command with my fastball," said Floyd, who hasn't won in six starts since June 1. "Chalk it up to a bad start. You just keep working hard and get on to the next start." Love the enthusiasm, Gavin!!! "We are halfway through the season, and there's a long way to go," Rios said. "We still have some guys — me included — that are struggling, and when we get them (hitting), we'll have a totally different team. The only thing we can do is to keep playing hard and wait until that happens." Dunn also struck out twice to raise his season total to 115. "I feel like me and Alex, we've been as bad as you could possibly be," Dunn said, "and if we're doing half of what we normally do, we're not even talking about this. We talked about it, and we're putting it all on us in the second half basically." GREAT, because putting all of the pressure on yourself as a hitter really tends to work well!!! www.chicagotribune.com/sports

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 9, 2011 -> 12:44 AM) I could see them trading Viciedo for Granderson and two minor leaguers or to the Braves for some stiffs. If KW is gonna trade him, it will be at the break or shortly after cause he hasn't been up to make us all fall in baseball love with him again. Greg, who would the Yankees play in CF then? That's the reverse of a typical Yankees' deal. They're not going to trade away one of their best hitters in the middle of the season for an unproven prospect. And it would cost a lot more than Viciedo to acquire Granderson anyway.

I'm not sure what Rios means about getting everyone back. I guess he means hitting at their "expected" levels, whatever that now actually means with Gordon, Dunn and Rios. Hopefully, they're not ignoring the last two games against Minnesota and just thinking they can magically turn it on against the Tigers. If we allow Minnesota to pass us now, recent history has shown (except for 2008) that we're not catching them again in the 2nd half.

But KW would have to be given permission to trade Viciedo, I'm sure. Certainly JR and the Board of Directors have to be realistic....that fighting off 3 teams that are all playing better than the White Sox isn't a very good gamble, especially after what's happened with Peavy, Dunn, Rios and Jackson. Viciedo is a future franchise hitter, and one of the few scouting determinations it seems they've gotten right since 2006. What were we trailing by when we waved the White Flag in 1997? I think it was only 3 1/2 GB, with the team meandering around .500.

QUOTE (Wanne @ Jul 8, 2011 -> 11:09 PM) That's actually pretty cheap for a top-flight SS. He's one I'd hang on too IMO... Yeah, it's the same we're paying Quentin this year, basically. Which is why Danks, Ramirez and Quentin are the 3 most desired targets for other teams (not including Sale and Santos). And having a fellow Cuban around to make Dayan's transition easier makes a lot of sense. Especially if we don't have a manager who can speak their language next year.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jul 8, 2011 -> 11:03 PM) I like that analogy. Too bad the minors suck so you have to spend money. Not really. DeAza/Lillibridge (Danks and Milledge can all figure in if you dump Rios, although the odds of that are 5%) for LF and leadoff, Viciedo replaces Quentin. AJ is traded to make way for Flowers or we acquire a younger/cheaper prospect. Sale and acquired prospects added to the back end of the rotation. Santos might be the only one you keep out of the entire pen if you can get anything back for them. Ramirez might even be traded in that scenario.

QUOTE (knightni @ Jul 8, 2011 -> 10:56 PM) Trading Ramirez at 30 years old isn't the worst idea. He'd bring a lot. Better do it now, before he starts making $5+ million in 2012. Welcome Lillibridge/Beckham/Kuhn/Omar/Escobar to fight it out as the starter there. On second thought, there's no way you move Beckham back, he's arguably one of the best AL defenders at his position. Omar's too old. That leaves Lillibridge (with a new hitting instructor) and Escobar realistically, with Saladino at least a year out. Or we acquire a top prospect from another organization. Overall though, I'm not so sure Alexei would be the one to go....Quentin, Jackson and Danks (if not signable) would be the first three. At this point, I could care less about keeping Gavin Floyd around, too. He has quite a bit in common with Javy Vazquez right now.

I'm actually just jumping to another dimension (like the time-space bridge in Transformers 3) where the results of the major league team don't matter as much as developing our prospects and setting everything up for 2012. Just don't want KW to be the one in the position of pulling the trigger any longer. Everyone in this organization is currently part of the problem, and it starts at the very top. It's like a disease....that leads to a sense of lethargy, malaise and self-doubt whenever we play teams in our own division. Enough is enough.

Okay, that's it. Jumping is the only logical choice for self-preservation of one's sanity.

Last year was defined by Jenks blowing the save and Thome walking off Thornton. The Twins' still use that bomb as one of their main highlights in their opening montage to every broadcast. This year, that shot tonight by Hughes against Ohman will probably be the end. Don't like the report that D. Boston and Edwin Jackson were in the dugout at the end of the game joking around and laughing. Not when you've just lost 30 out of 37 games to your main rival. Ozzie now 58-77 against Gardenhire. In early 2009, he was 51-47.

Well, before this week, I didn't think it would be possible for JR to sign off on trading Konerko away but now I don't even care if we're just going to figure out every conceivable way to blow game after game to the Royals and Twinkies. Every starting pitcher is on the block... Santos and Sale, you keep. If you can get a good deal for Crain or Thornton, why not? Then you keep Ramirez, Beckham (maybe), Viciedo and Morel (hopefully he can start hitting for some power) and look for a new catcher, corner outfielder and figure out what the hell to do with Dunn and Rios. I think Dunn eventually will be okay. Rios, not so sure. 9 straight losses....and 7-30 against Minnesota. 14 of their last 16 at USCF. Hahn as GM and whoever he and JR want to bring in as manager.

I think Rongey must be in hiding tonight. Zack or Zach Saban is doing the post-game.

Typical disappearing act, 5 hits in 8+ innings against the Twins after the 1st. Really wish they would have used Bruney or Sale in the 4th. Either would have been a much better option than Ohman. If Sale's really going to be in the starting rotation next year, why not let him go 2+ innings and see how he fares? Of all our relief pitchers, he's pitched perhaps the best over the last month or so.

QUOTE (Wanne @ Jul 8, 2011 -> 09:42 PM) I think Davey Johnson may backfire on them. Who knows...maybe not. Sounds like they weren't too fond of Riggleman. And I think he knew all along they wanted to bring in a big-name manager (think he had the lowest salary in the majors) when both Strasburg and Harper were on the team together in 2012. He called their bluff and they wouldn't blink about building up everything for the following season.

QUOTE (Wanne @ Jul 8, 2011 -> 08:34 PM) Good for them...and Clint Hurdle. Goes to show you what a different mindset brings a team (YOU LISTENING JERRY!!!!!!). ps. see DBags too. And the Nationals. Viciedo 1/3 with another BB. Don't need him.

Bruney throwing quite a few pitches that inning at 96 MPH. Would have been better to use that type of power pitcher against Tosoni and Hughes than a soft-tosser.

Finally we get Bruney four outs too late. But Ozzie has his DEFINED bullpen pecking order and he will never deviate from that. Beachy has given up 2 runs through 5 IP in head-to-head match-up with Halladay. Tied 2-2. Probably the two best teams in baseball right now. You'll get arguments from Red Sox and Yankees fans, of course. 27,737 currently disappointed fans.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 8, 2011 -> 08:24 PM) Too bad we had to have the pitcher bat. How is Morel supposed to hit in the majors with that swing? With Pierre safe for now, Morel will be the "Brian Anderson 2006 sacrificial lamb to the slaughter" next. Unfortunately, it will mean Teahen or Vizquel at 3B, and both aren't going to make any difference in turning this season around. They won't do it to Rios (bench him permanently), even though he's undoubtedly more deserving as a veteran.

QUOTE (Wanne @ Jul 8, 2011 -> 08:23 PM) It never fails...1st inning runs mean crapping down pant legs the rest of the game. It's clockwork. This is the never-ending problem against the Twins. Even when we have early 3-4-5 run leads, we let them creep back into the game, inning by inning. It's just that usually the actual "blowing" of the lead doesn't happen until it's time for Thornton or Jenks. Blackburn almost at 110 pitches now through 5.