caulfield12

QUOTE (scenario @ Dec 9, 2008 -> 06:41 PM) Cortes is a good prospect. It makes me sick we gave him up for MacDougal. Well, maybe the Royals will get something out of him. They got Greinke's career turned around after he almost quit pitching to mow lawns (it had nothing to do with wanting to be on a winning team, it was http://www.furiousseasons.com/movabletype/...?entry_id=1451), Brian Bannister pitched above expectations for most of the season and Kyle Davies was a revelation after being left for dead by the Braves (along with Horacio Ramirez). Now, if they can only get similar results out of Hochevar and Cortes, they'll be in real business. Of course, Tyler Lumsden was a huge disappointment considering his position in the draft as well.

QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Dec 9, 2008 -> 06:31 PM) Well he has a better overall package of pitches than Poreda, is younger than Poreda and spent the entire year in AA. The numbers while better overall for Poreda, were not that dissimilar. Cortes also has a solid fastball. Beckham hasn't had a full season in the minors and Viciedo has never played American ball. Based on all of this, it is fair to rate Cortes higher. And no offense, these people have probably seen more of the prospects than any of us, so it is also fair to say they have a more educated opinion. Not saying I agree with it, but it isn't ludicrous. I stand by my original point. It has been 9 years now since a White Sox starting pitching prospect really amounted to something. I guess I'm just waiting for KW to be burned just once in this area (and no, it wasn't trading Brandon McCarthy, as many worried one day late in December).

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Dec 9, 2008 -> 05:10 PM) Our current payroll is about $88M. But essentially, it's less becase of the money coming from Philly still for Thome, yes? So around $82 in actuality? Then $70 million if Dye is traded...

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Dec 9, 2008 -> 03:46 PM) Daniel Cortes is a top 50 prospect in all of baseball and was given up for MacDougall. Well, MLB has him rated ahead of Poreda, Beckham and Viciedo...they have no idea what they are talking about, at all. Clueless.

QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 9, 2008 -> 02:20 PM) I had heard that the Sox were willing to offer 4/32 to OC Fortunately, Alexei Ramirez is about $27-28 million cheaper. I go back to KW's quotes from Monday...he's past the point as a GM that he's trying to "sell the team," do spin/PR or convince anyone (especially the media or SoxFest) that he's right. We might all have a problem with Kenny Williams, but that's not going to factor into his thinking, ever. It's just not the way he thinks, which is kind of refreshing, to see that kind of trust and independence because of the relationship he's forged with JR and Ozzie.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Dec 9, 2008 -> 02:09 PM) Rasner made his strides last season but is I believe subject to the minor league phase of the Rule-5 draft. If he's back he'll spend next season in Birmingham as a 22-year-old so he's still got a chance. The real Garland was very valuable until he started getting paid eight figures to put up ERA's north of 4.50. He's still a good pitcher and an innings eater and I'd more than welcome him back on a 3 year, $25-27M deal to be a 5th starter, but that's unlikely. He'll get more than that. Same thing with Furcal...who made $13 million and expected 3 years and $39 this time around. Garland made $12 million in 2008 with an ERA hovering right around 5...still, for him to go all the way down to $8.33-9.0 million per season would be a shock. He's 29 and very durable. The other pitchers in his tier (Penny, Wolf, O. Perez, Pettitte, Moyer) all have significant age/injury/inconsistency issues.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 9, 2008 -> 02:58 PM) That's what I've heard about almost every teams' interest in him. I think he and/or his agent made a huge financial mistake rejecting arbitration. Have you sent your personlized "thank you/Christmas" card to KW yet? It shouldn't be THAT surprising though....out of all those guys, only two "middling" relief pitchers accepted arbitration. Cabrera's ego is too big to swallow his pride like that, especially with countryman Renteria getting 2 years and $18.5 million from SFG.

So if they missed the playoffs, the White Sox would have also traded Konerko/Thome, Buehrle and AJ away as well? Up until now, everything that I've seen is pretty logical and consistent with KW's philosophies about getting younger/more affordable/more flexibility without giving up a chance to be competitive in our division this year or into the future. After 2007, it looked like it would be at least 3-5 years before the ballclub could win another division title. I also think we're temporarily forgetting about Poreda, Viciedo (biggest FA signing for an under 21 year old in history), Flowers, Jord. Danks and Beckham looming, not to mention Brandon Allen and all the draft picks in 2009.

Since when has running the White Sox ever been presented to us as anything but trying to break even or not dip into the personal wealth of any of the managing directors? To speculate about losing on investments or the stock market or real estate being the cause of a "firesale" is a bit premature. Has Williams done anything illogical that none of would have done were we in the same situation? If Dye actually is traded and we go with our current roster without any additions to the mix, then you MIGHT have a point. You also have to consider how far we were over budget (compared to attendance) in 2007 and 2008...I'm guessing the team spent more money than it made both of the last two seasons.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 9, 2008 -> 01:46 PM) Buh? Buehrle? Garland (from Cubs)? Any number of relievers? Yes, you have to go back 9-10 years to Buehrle and Garland, and Garland didn't start with us and spent very little time in the minors before coming up in 2000 at age 19/20. I guess you can count Kip Wells, Josh Fogg, Rocky Biddle and Danny Wright as amounting to something if you wish (or even Rauch/Majewski)...but since then, zippo, except for McCarthy. Even Frank Francisco spent a lot more time with the Red Sox than the White Sox before we flipped him for Everett.

Just like Josh Rupe was the "wildcard" when we traded him...or Matt Guerrier was going to be "the next Maddux" according to McClendon and the Pirates' GM at the time. Yeah, they really ripped off KW and gave up that Marte kid, who they weren't even going to keep on the roster because of a numbers game in the bullpen. If Carlos Torres lights the world on fire with the Royals, it will be the first time a young White Sox starting prospect has amounted TO ANYTHING this decade, unless you want to count Brandon McCarthy.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 9, 2008 -> 01:35 PM) How about a Healthy Contreras? I think healthy Linebrink, Contreras, God might have done it. Even as a 4th starter down the stretch, Contreras would probably have shown some bigger cojones than Vazquez, and that would have given us so much more flexibility to dump Richard in to games that Vazquez started early, etc. Forgot about him going down with the Achilles' injury in that Red Sox series. I was saying to myself at that exact point in time, the White Sox chances this season are toast...

QUOTE (Jimbo's Drinker @ Dec 9, 2008 -> 01:30 PM) and at this rate, we wont sniff a playoff game for at least 5 years. I am not sayig its cubs v sox, but look waht they are doing up there and look what we are unloading down here. Ummm....that's what I would have said last year at this time as a Twins' fan. We just gave up the best pitcher in the game for Carlos Gomez basically (at least to this point, Humber and Mulvey haven't done much), we lost our most important veteran leader in Torii Hunter, we've signed Livan Hernandez as our biggest offseason deal and Brad Radke has retired, yet somehow we're going to go down to the final game of the season + 1. Oh, yeah, and we've traded away what might have been our best young pitcher (along with Liriano), our underrated shortstop for "headcase" Delmon Young.

QUOTE (Jimbo's Drinker @ Dec 9, 2008 -> 01:30 PM) and at this rate, we wont sniff a playoff game for at least 5 years. I am not sayig its cubs v sox, but look waht they are doing up there and look what we are unloading down here. A lot depends on who acquires them. As has been mentioned a boatload of times, the combination of Soriano, Dempster and Fukudome might be the worst triumvirate of long-term deals in the game to go sour simultaneously. I can't remember the particulars with Ramirez and D. Lee off the top of my head, but they've got huge commitments for the future, and even the Cubs' vaunted revenue streams will be challenged without a new ballpark and constant playoff disappointment. In our own division, only Dontrelle Willis and Sheffield come close, but those guys aren't signed for nearly as many years as the Cubs' group.

We were a healthy Linebrink, a healthy Quentin, a better leadoff hitter, a healthy 2005-ish Crede (although I think we could have made it with Uribe, probably, the way he was playing defense and hitting there at the end) and exchanging a "bulldog" like Garland/Garcia as 4th for Vazquez away from being a World Series team. You could probably also add in there "normal/career average" seasons from Konerko and Swisher respectively.

1:10pm: Roman Modrowski of the Chicago Sun-Times says Peavy sang "Go Cubs, Go" at a Vegas bar last night. Good times. Kerry Wood likely signing to be Indians' closer now, instead of with the Tigers. Some crazy team is going to give Derek FREAKING Lowe $80 million over 5 years. Now I know why Jon Garland turned down arbitration with the Angels. Geez, that's a lot of Lowe at this stage in his career, especially if he goes back to the hitter-friendly AL. And Jamie Moyer asking for $20 million over 2 years.

QUOTE (Jimbo's Drinker @ Dec 9, 2008 -> 01:17 PM) KW is getting suckered again, time to blame the media or "leaks" in the organization. Well, whatever happened (or didn't happen last offseason), it turned out okay for us, right? How is he being suckered? Because you happen to believe we're trading him for just Edwin Jackson? Or can you provide more examples of KW being suckered during his regime (besides the Todd Ritchie trade, or Durham for Adkins)?

We can be PRETTY SURE that either Reyes or Morton were turned down as the final piece of the Vazquel deal. If KW was talked out of acquiring "a major league ready pitcher" for Santos Rodriguez and Gilmore, why would he turn around and then acquire one of them, especially when that's EXACTLY what he was APPARENTLY looking for in order to fill out our rotation at that point, or at the very least, provide depth with Marquez/CR/AP?

According to one National League executive, the Kansas City Royals and Atlanta Braves have had serious discussions about a trade that would send outfielder Jeff Francouer to the Royals for pitcher Zack Greinke. The same source said he believed the teams were close to executing the deal, but that Atlanta was holding up any and all trade discussions until the Braves had a resolution of their pursuit of right-hander AJ Burnett. mlbtraderumors

Ummmm.....no, but we didn't expect to win the World Series coming out of Spring Training '05, or compete for a division title in 2008. Second, Dye hasn't been traded for Bailey, not yet at least. Third, KW knows what he's doing better than anyone here. Wait until you seen the Opening Day roster, then you can make whatever comments you want to make about being able to compete in 2009. Even then, KW almost always make an adjustment at mid-season to give us one final "cog" to make a run. I guess 2006 was one of the few exceptions, when he relied on the word of Thome, Paulie and Dye that they didn't need to add anything. Fourth, we lost Valentin, Ordonez and Carlos Lee one off-season and won it all the next year. We haven't lost considerably more this offseason. Swisher was a part-time player, Crede was injured, Uribe is/was Uribe, Cabrera was so-so, just like Vazquez. Now I'll agree that trading Dye would cut deeper, but just wait and see what he does with the savings...there's a lot of other options like Dunn, Abreu, Ibanez, Griffey, Juan Rivera, Milton Bradley, J. Hermida. KW needs to sign at least one FA to replace some of the offensive firepower lost. Fifth, it was just last season we were coming off 72 wins, things looked completely bleak (DET and CLE looked like world-beaters), and we missed out on Torii Hunter, Miguel Cabrera, Fukudome (lucky for us) and Aaron Rowand, just to name a few. I don't think any fans torched the message boards then, and they won't now, especially coming off a Central Division crown.

I think Octavio Dotel making $6.5 million as a set-up man would qualify as well...that's a lot of money to pay someone who's not the closer, not to mention the money committed to MacDougal, Linebrink and Thornton. If anything, it was a reaction (or overreaction to some) to the 2006 and 2007 seasons, in terms of correcting past philosophical mistakes of going "cheap" on the bullpen and throwing lots of "good arms" without much experience into the melting pot and hoping to strike gold with a couple of them (like Aardsma and Sisco, for example)

In fact, trading Dye could clear the way for the Sox to go after a free agent such as Milton Bradley or Rocco Baldelli, as well as add a veteran starting pitcher on the cheap. A major-league source told the Sun-Times not to be surprised to see Freddy Garcia back in a Sox uniform in spring training if his current ''aches'' subside. The Sox know what they get with Garcia, and he'd love to be reunited with Ozzie Guillen. But for now, Williams was adamant that there's one way to build a team: his. ''It doesn't matter in terms of our planning what the outside world thinks,'' Williams said. ''I'm sorry, and that's putting it very bluntly, but if I reacted to all the things the public and media wanted us to do, we'd be in a much different place than we are now.'' cowley, suntimes.com/sports On the Jermaine Dye "situation" "From a personal standpoint, I make no bones about it," Williams said of Dye. "He's a good man. And I consider him a friend. "But there's going to come a day, soon here, whether it's the next year or the year after that when all of your players, no matter how close you are with them, all of your players are going to have to be transitioned into a different aspect of life." "And I'd like to think we do it well and we'll continue to operate in this fashion," said Williams, who has shifted gears from past years when he traded prospects for veterans. "But now we have to build something that, yes, we can win in 2009 and sustain a new young core as we move into the future." Williams reiterated the lack of bona fide leadoff hitters available and endorsed Jerry Owens as a candidate, although Owens was beset by injuries in 2008 after stealing 32 bases in 93 games in 2007. "I'm not so quick to forget guys that have a lot of potential and a lot of talent and fall off for whatever reason," Williams said. "We've made a pretty good living here to take advantage off those situations." mark gonzales/chicagotribune.com

Well, yes, by definition, all of the players we brought in before 2005 were "complementary." L. Vizcaino El Duque (I think he was the MOST expensive, around $5.5-6.5 million?) Tad Iguchi (KW never even saw him play in person, just went off videotape) AJ (had worn out his welcome quickly in SF) Jermaine Dye (coming off injury, uncertain future at that point after the broken leg and other injuries) Dustin Hermanson Scott Podsednik Of course, the main difference is we didn't sign any of them or bring them in on LONG-TERM (3+ years) FA deals and they certainly weren't making anywhere close to $10 million per season...El Duque was the closest.

Michael Jordan's father, etc. I lived in Colombia for one year (05-06), so I can only say that these guys (and their families) are very high profile, and easy targets for kidnappers or those looking for a ransom, unless things go awry, which usually happens. Remember the whole Uribe shooting incident last year? Of course, Guillen's good friend (maybe best friend) Gus Polidor was killed, and Ugueth Urbina was kidnapped but also jailed for murder. I really wish Ozzie would at least have a driver/bodyguard down there with him, not that this can prevent a superior, well-trained force from taking someone...Ozzie's kind of like, if we change our lives or make concessions, we "let the terrorists" win, it's his home, and I guess it's worth the risk to him to spend time down there, until something happens to one of his family members.

QUOTE (Friend of Nordhagen @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 10:32 PM) Why yes! And, when spending time in Mexico, he throws only a tick or two less than Bobby Jenks! Are you making a joke about Nick Masset? Or Jon Adkins? Or Felix Diaz?