caulfield12

QUOTE(gosox41 @ Nov 22, 2007 -> 11:14 AM) Well for starters, I've been bringing up the lack of Sox farm system for years. I'm sure you'll see some repsonses from them here. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out a good farm system helps fill in holes. While I haven't been positng here until recently, I've been at other boards saying the same think and the minor league "experts' have criticized me for it. So, you're right. What's done is done. But the key is for Sox management to learn from their 7 years of mistakes and help prevent this from happening again. The reality is the reason the team has so many holes and was forced into bringing a guy like Dye back is becuase they had nothing in the minors that was major league ready to step in. same thing with Linebrink. A good reliever, but not a top tiered one. So all the years of neglect of the farm system is an issue. And while we can't go back and change it, the Sox damn well better learn something so we're not forced into these corners again. Remember this team still needs a SP, another reliever and 2 OFer's. Oh year, they're also almost maxed out their payroll and are coming off an embarassing 90 loss system. Maybe I haven't been to far off base the last 5-6 years in my critique of KW and his farm system. Or maybe I'[m just sick of just watching the Sox invest money in guys that any good farm system can easily produce. I hope KW has a good plan to fll the rest of these holes, because if this team finishes under .500 with a $100 mill payroll a second year in a row, I'd expect a lot of pissed off people around here. Bob Well, there's about 15 MLB organizations that haven't won a World Series in the last 20+ years that would beg to differ on that analysis. The White Sox fans have been systematically conditioned for so long that we don't feel we deserve a $100 million payroll...or maybe it's because we won in it all with a much lower one. When I heard about the Torii Hunter years and total money, I knew that the money was going to start flying even more crazily than last year...let's face it baseball is flush with cash, it's almost on par with the NFL in terms of profitability. How else can you explain Torii Hunter and Gary Matthews, Jr., making almost $150 million between them? There have been 7 years of mistakes, but the successes like Crede and Buehrle and Rowand...and the smart acquisitions going into 2005, that's what did it for us. If you think about it, Durham/Ordonez/Caballo had already been jettisoned for basically NOTHING substantial in return...w/ the exception of Pods in 2005. Yes, you can look at guys like Sweeney, Anderson and Valido and say if two of those three guys were ready...or if Joe Borchard ever became what he was supposed to be, we wouldn't have needed Thome so badly from the LH side, and then we'd still have Rowand, etc. If we had Rowand, then we would have traded away Anderson and a certain D-Backs CFer (Chris B. Young) who's more overhyped than Eric Davis around some parts. When you look at things realistically, Young and McCarthy are still the only two players out there that most fans would like back from our farm system....at least 50% would take them back, I would think, if not more. Dye is not an easily-replaced player. Or Buehrle. Maybe even Konerko. Even if Sweeney hit .280 with 15 homers and 80 RBI's, it wouldn't come close to approximating what JD did in 2005 and 2006. There aren't many organizations that haven't bottomed out that are consistently producing young All-Stars every season. Linebrink was one of, if not THE best, set-up man in baseball over the past five years...not the last couple, but as a composite, at least in the Top 5. After the LH reliever debacle in 2006, Jeff Nelson, seeing Hermanson try to come back, Politte, Cotts, Marte, the likes of Sean Tracey and Agustin Montero and EVERYTHING we suffered through last year...to do nothing BUT HOPE? C'mon, who wouldn't be out there trying to crucify KW for that blunder 3 years in a row? A name that doesn't come up, something that went unnoticed relatively....David Riske. Many claim he's one of the most underrated relievers in the game, and he certainly could have helped settle things down last year. But I still don't think a bullpen of Riske, Luis Vizcaino and El Duque would have got the White Sox to 81 wins the way the offense collapsed last year. MAYBE. But we still wouldn't have been close to the playoffs.

QUOTE(bigruss22 @ Nov 22, 2007 -> 11:08 AM) Maybe we can bring in Jenkins now, from what Ive heard he is very good def., and he would still give you atleast an average bat, but one that may strike out alot. Still, he wouldnt be all taht expensive, just another option i guess. Please God, no. Mike Devereaux...Cory Snyder...Ellis Burks...Dave Martinez...Brian Daubach. We have a great knack of getting players 2-3 years TOO late.

QUOTE(EvilJester99 @ Nov 22, 2007 -> 10:04 AM) How so? Does your gut tell you he would be disgusting or a terrible OF? Well, we certainly can't put Andy G. or Anderson Gomes out there, can we? I always laugh at the reactions when foreign players' names come up. Based on watching them once or never, many jump to black/white conclusions. Is Fukodome likely to be the next Matsui or Ichiro? Probably not....but remember all the nay-sayers on the Takatsu and Iguchi deals? Japanese players SEEM to fit very well into the "reinvigorated" style of play that the White Sox are hoping to inculcate into their team mindset. If you want to ask someone for a "real" opinion with relevance, ask Bobby Valentine or Trey Hillman (Royals' new manager) about this guy and see what they say first. That goes for the reliever we're in the "Top 5" for as well. Interesting that we're fighting the Royals for both this reliever and also in the discussions for T. Hunter. I wish we could get DeJesus, but they would try to stick us with a certain D-Rays castoff who can run like the wind but do little else of productive value on the diamond. If I remember correctly, KW didn't even see Iguchi once in person, just watched tons of video tape. Actually, it's amazing he signed him, because that 'rusty swinging gate' hitch in his swing certainly didn't look like it would translate into ANY level of success against MLB pitching...and KW still went with his gut and made the correct call.

Has everyone lost their bloody minds? Downfall of the White Sox? NOT signing Hunter to this ridiculous, Soriano-esque deal? Seriously, have you watched any NFL running backs have a successful career well into their 30's after playing so much on turf? Name ONE! He will be pretty good for two years, but six years and $18 per season. I would have been pissed if we spent $60 million for four years. By the way, the Yankees have WHAT as their starting rotation? They'll still be at home when the World Series is being played next year, book it! You know they're not going to pay Rowand or A. Jones that kind of money either, so here we go again with "creative" KW. Crisp, Fukodome, Billy Hall, Gary Matthews, Jr. (with the Angels paying half his contract!!!) The Angels want to play Garret Anderson and Hunter everyday (that makes absolute NO SENSE! both should play in NO MORE than 145 games IMO) and rotate Matthews and Guerrero in RF/DH, mostly to rest Vladdy's knees.

With starter Chad Billingsley probably untouchable, look for the Sox to pursue two or three of the following players in a package: second baseman Tony Abreau, outfielder Matt Kemp, second baseman/outfielder Delwyn Young, outfielder James Loney, reliever Jonathan Broxton, and monster left-handed pitching prospect Clayton Kershaw. One of those players can be sent to Florida for Cabrera, the 24-year-old third baseman who beat the Marlins at arbitration for $7.4 million last season, and is due to become a free agent after 2009. The Sox would want him in left field, where Cabrera played earlier in his career when Ozzie Guillen was a coach with Florida and the Marlins won the World Series. from dailyherald.com I'm not altogether optimistic about taking on huge salary players (especially M. Cabrera in the future, didn't we try to divest ourselves of guys like Ordonez and Magglio when they started making $10-15 million per season?)...but I would definitel like some insurance/competition and versatility with the 2B position. I guess from that perspective, Delwyn Young might make the most sense, to provide depth and possibly start at 2B (probably not OF). The chips we have/might have are Crede, Konerko, Uribe and maybe Contreras, although I doubt that he would be too attractive. I do think we need to make a trade for some younger but somewhat proven major leaguers (like the Dodgers have in abundance) in order to lower payroll and increase flexibility for the future, while still remaining competitive for 2008. I'm just not sure how much we could actually get in return for Crede until he's healthy...and why KW would be so tempted to push the button so soon on a deal, unless it's simply to know exactly which position (LF, 3B, 1B) Josh Fields will be at coming into Spring Training?

Garland is entering the final year of a three-year, $29-million deal that will pay him $12 million in 2008. A Southern California native who attended Kennedy High in Granada Hills, Garland, who helped Chicago win the 2005 World Series, said he would be "very interested" in signing an extension with the Angels. "We think he's going to make us better," Reagins said of Garland. "In fact, I know we got better today." The 6-foot-6, 210-pound sinkerball specialist, who also mixes a changeup with his fastball, has a 92-81 record and 4.41 ERA in six-plus seasons. He has reached 10 wins, 30 starts and 200 innings in each of the last four seasons. "I don't feel I've changed at all" since the consecutive 18-win seasons, said Garland, who was nearly traded to the Angels for Darin Erstad in December 2001. "I feel I've been getting better. . . . This is a great opportunity to come home and show the West Coast what my capabilities are. I'd love to bring another championship back here." Though Garland suffered his first losing record since 2003, he still gave an underperforming White Sox team 21 quality starts (six innings or more, three earned runs or fewer), and the Angels believe he will thrive in Angel Stadium, which is more of a pitchers' park than U.S. Cellular Field. "He's proved he's going to take the ball, get 30-plus starts, pitch deep into games, and that constant is very important for us as we move forward," Scioscia said. "He threw the ball well last year." mike.digiovanna@latimes.com

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Nov 19, 2007 -> 11:00 PM) Yes, nobody really knows what they have...but it sure seems like the Angels have made it a point to go with those guys repeatedly, and are constantly clearing spaces for them. For Kendrick, they cleared out Kennedy. For Kotchman/Morales they hid Erstad. They let Glaus walk to go with McPherson, then instead of getting in on anyone bigger or trading for Crede they tried Figgins, Aybar, and had Wood play 3rd base in the minors. They let Washburn walk because they were confident their young guys could replace him. They let Percival walk to move in K-Rod. And even when they try to do so, with that Tejada deal, something winds up killing it. The Angels, for better or worse, are NOT trading away their young guys in a fair deal no matter how much we may want them to. They are like the opposite of the D-Rays; they hold onto their young guys come hell or high water and let their peak value time pass that way; the D-Rays hold onto guys until they're a year from FA until their peak value has passed. Either way, you need to overpay to get one of their key group, and that ain't changing. Well, nobody's perfect...it seems they held onto McPherson, Kotchmann, Santana and Shields, among others, way past their "sell by" dates. And even Morales would have been a huge prize for any organization to acquire a couple of seasons ago. They really haven't made any BIG moves, besides signing the likes of Guerrero, Colon and Matthews. One could argue that they would have been smarter to trade Vladdy when his value was also at its peak...now that he seems to be in a little decline (in terms of physical movement), mostly due to injuries but partly due to age as well. He also has that violent swing like a Sheffield or Thome that has to create some wear and tear...not to mention the fact that he swings SO much more than any other player I've seen. But that signing by Moreno was a huge credibility lift to the organization and first salvo against McCourt and the Dodgers' dominance of the SC "mindshare," the same battle we fight with the Cubs, the Mets with the Yankees or the A's against the Giants. The only real negatives the Angels have had were little moves like Hillenbrand or keeping Garret Anderson and Salmon way too long. That's the nature of franchises...they almost always tend to hold onto players one or two years too long out of sentimental value, although GA surprised many this year with his "comeback." They also did a good job of picking up Juan Rivera for little or nothing...and, like many teams, they have so-so catching.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Nov 19, 2007 -> 10:38 PM) I think it says a lot about the Halos that this strikes me as the first major trade they've made in a couple offseasons (anyone else think of any?) and they didn't give up one of their young guys; they gave up one of their veteran older guys who was blocking their young guy. The problem is the between Izturis, Aybar and Brandon Wood, nobody knows exactly what they have. I'm sure that combination will turn out better than Brian Anderson, Sweeney and Jerry Owens in the White Sox outfield...but you're taking something of a risk to trade a veteran clubhouse leader and one of the most respected players on the team for a set of question marks with potential. I know Cabrera also has a very good reputation in Cartagena, Colombia...I spent some time there in 05 and 06 and I know that he spent a significant amount of money to have the neighborhoods and streets improved in the neighborhood where he grew up and he's also the part owner (or maybe even builder) of a high rise there with his first "tenants" being his parents...so he seems like a pretty decent guy, unlike someone like Wil Cordero/Clayton/Lofton.

QUOTE(PAUL KONERKO 14 @ Nov 19, 2007 -> 09:53 PM) Our plan=to get Torii Kedar Hunter While Michael Bourn Identity wouldn't be much better than Jerry Owens, and that's questionable...is Hunter such a lock? He's going to get a minimum of $60 million for four years, making him the highest played member of the team, or right up there with Buehrle. He had a really strong '07, but the two seasons prior to that were not so outstanding, with injuries and lower batting averages. He strikes out a ton...do we need any more of this type of hitter with our renewed concentration on contact, advancing runners, bunting, etc.? He's definitely lost a step or two defensively. I mean, is the difference between Hunter and someone like Mike Cameron worth THAT kind of money? It would certainly give the White Sox some credibility heading in 08 if they signed Hunter, had Cabrera at SS and moved some other pieces to shore up the bullpen and bench, but would anyone be rejoicing (besides Mariotti?) at that deal at this point in the game? Look at last off-season, the only OF signing that worked (Pods, Roberts, Pierre, Mathews) was the one that was the most universally questioned. Heck, Mathews and Meche both drew raised eyebrows, and those turned out to be two of the better signings.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Nov 19, 2007 -> 09:49 PM) One of these things is not like the other; one of these things just doesn't belong. and by one, I mean two, because one of these guys is pretty average, and another is a 1Bman. And, on top of that, another may be moving to 3B in a year. Why don't we go back five years and add A-Rod and Nomar? Seriously, that list he came up with was INTERESTING. The Indians love Peralta so much that they are trying to dump him for the second time in three years. He's a lousy shortstop and an inconsistent offensive performer, like Uribe. They still want Barfield to get another shot at 2B and to move over Asdrubal whatever his name is over to SS from what I've read.

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune....ra-a-barga.html Something else that's interesting, losing Garland after 2008 would have netted absolutely nothing in return as a Type B Free Agent (somehow, those 36 wins over two years don't count for much, do they?) So, along with the money coming our way, the compensation if we are unable to sign Cabrera long-term, the eventual playing destination of Mr. Juan Uribe, this is starting to make a little more sense from the Sox perspective.

QUOTE(Jeremy @ Nov 19, 2007 -> 08:08 PM) Rob Neyer: Keith Law (insider content only): Has a very similar but slightly less critical take than Neyer. Baseball America: I'm not doing back flips over this deal but my take on these articles is that because these writers haven't followed the Sox on a regular basis, they don't realize that if Cabrera plays defense just as well as Uribe and produces at the level of his own career averages offensively he'll be a considerable upgrade. I feel like they're glossing over how incredibly putrid (.240/.281/.415) Uribe has been at the plate the past three seasons. Of course, the Carlos Lee deal made LITTLE to no sense at the time...the Sox are getting rid of Ordonez, Valentin and Caballo, and we're still going to somehow contend? Now, of course, times have changed and the competition in the division is much stiffer...but we have no choice but to improve our team speed, contact...I think if OG is going to go down (along with KW), it will be doing things their way, and that means "small ball" for sure. If that means they're going to cram Vazquez and Gavin Floyd and Masset and Sisco and Aardsma down our throats (in KW's unique way) to prove how wise he is, well, we will just have to wait and see. The emergence of a certain D-Backs CFer has finally given the critics their Fogg/Wells/Lowe for Ritchie of recent years...although many Sox fans would still argue that a front-line starter for the next Mike Cameron (albeit a very affordable one) isn't as one-sided as one might be led to believe. There were so many decisions with this team that look bad now but looked good at the time: 1) Letting Rowand go to start Anderson and save money, and I still don't believe Rowand was so magical or grinderish 2) Signing Jose long-term 3) Cintron and Mackowiak 4) Not spending money on a LH reliever coming into 06, and the infamous Jeff Nelson/Jose Paniagua experiment 5) Not spending any real money on relievers coming into 07, especially a veteran...trying outsmart the market 6) Not trading Crede, Dye, Contreras, Garland, Jenks, Matt Thornton, etc., at their "peak values" 7) Thinking Juan Uribe would play like 04/05 again, and the lack of development with Valido

QUOTE(kwolf68 @ Nov 19, 2007 -> 04:17 PM) Simple: Because Kenny can't trade Jose. He's gassed and the real sad thing about this is Kenny didn't know he was gassed until the jalope' actually broke down on the side of the road. Kenny is such an ass. You don't trade in your junker car after it throws a rod and that is exactly what Williams tried to do last year with Jose. He couldn't get anyone out so Williams goes shopping him, as if the other GMs in baseball don't watch TV. He goes to shopping Dye in a contract year, shops Mark in a contract year, shops Crede coming back from injury going into a contract year. Crede was wanted by the Angels last year and any reports you read said the Sox were due to bring in a pretty nice haul, but Williams was out of his mind and didn't try to trade Crede UNTIL NOW, after his back finally gave way and with a contract year getting ready to start up. What is he doing? It's par for the course with this guy. Hang onto guys one year too late and then quickly try to deal your diminishing, aging talent before anyone notices they can't play anymore. He just continues to make this team older with no rhyme or reason. He's a lot like Dan Snyder, just collecting guys, making moves for the hell of it so his own name can be in the papers. If Williams ever wins another World Series again it will be a miracle. The guy sucks as a GM. He got lucky in 2005. And how did (or do) we know that, especially at that time, that Josh Fields was even capable of being a major league player? I think the jury's still out if he can actually play 3B everyday or if he's a DH/LF, which lowers his value substantially. Look at the struggles of Anderson and Sweeney and Borchard and the list goes on and on...let's say we traded Crede before last season (we definitely couldn't have put Fields there before 06) and Fields did what most Sox position prospects do, he failed miserably. Then we would have been stuck with Uribe or Mackowiak at 3B. That would have looked brilliant...trading the most well-liked member of the team and the hero of 2005 and replacing him with the equivalent of Chris Snopek/Greg Norton. It's not such an easy thing...would you have had the guts and prescience to just KNOW that Contreras would lose it just as magically as he became the best pitcher in the AL for a four month long stretch from August of 05 through May of 06? Was anyone on ANY White Sox board calling for Jose to be traded in May or June of 2006 (of course, after the sciatica injury, it was TOO late).

QUOTE(kwolf68 @ Nov 19, 2007 -> 02:52 PM) You don't think adding MORE starting pitching will allow them to address those offensive problems? They added DEPTH at the most IMPORTANT position in the game and only had to give up a 33 year old player going into a contract year to do it. Don't be shocked if they make a subsequent deal within days + to get Garland they didn't have to unload a single prospect, average or otherwise, from their already loaded farm system. Well, keep in mind they have to replace Colon in their rotation...although he was injured for most of the season. This leaves the Angels with Lackey, Escobar, Weaver, Garland and Saunders as their rotation. Probably the second best rotation (ON PAPER) in the AL, minus the offensive firepower of the Red Sox. I don't see where they have any pitchers to trade...beyond either E. Santana and/or Saunders. Neither of those guys, or both together, is not going to get you a Miguel Cabrera caliber player. They would have to trade Kendry Morales, Willits and another fringe prospect in the mold of McPherson/Kotchmann (06-07) along with those two pitchers...and that opens up just as many problems as it solves. Maybe if they gave up Aybar/Morales/Willits (two of those three) along with Santana or Sanders...but neither of those pitchers are enough to get anyone excited, they're not true frontline starters, at least at this stage of their careers.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Nov 19, 2007 -> 02:41 PM) So, just really curious in all of this...what is really the point of this for either team? The White Sox get a 2nd shortstop, the Angels lose their only real good shortstop, the Sox lose a good starting pitcher and the Angels strengthen a strength...? I really don't think anybody should be surprised by the value returned; it's just the actual return that is brought back that weirds me out. Something's up, but OCab is here for sure. They felt they had to open the spot for Aybar and/or Wood. The thing that's funny is that the Angels STILL haven't addressed their offensive problems (the lack of one more middle of the order power hitter)...not having another big bat like Konerko in that line-up has been enough to cancel that strong starting pitching, lockdown bullpen and multi-faceted offensive attack in the post-season.

QUOTE(kwolf68 @ Nov 19, 2007 -> 02:27 PM) The reason this pisses me off so much is because the White Sox ONCE AGAIN have traded a player ONE YEAR TOO late. We could have had Tavares, T.Bucholz, and Jason Hirsch from Houston last year for Garland. I am not saying Bucholz or Hirsch will become studds, but they have solid arms and were young. Tavares could have filled our need at leadoff/CF. Obviously, Garland's value was higher not going into a contract year, BUT THATS WHEN YOU FRIGGING trade guys, WHEN THEIR VALUE is high. Now, his value is down some as he is heading into a contract year after not pitching well in the 2nd half. So we're left adding an aging (though talented) player ALSO in a contract year. We gave up PITCHING for this? Williams tried to deal Jose Contreras last year...yea, during a span where he COULD NOT get ANYONE out. Jose C? A 57 year old Cuban that can't get outs is worth how much? Joe Crede? As much as I love JC, the Angels wanted him last year...WANTED HIM and I heard rumors that we would get either Lackey or Escobar and or a couple top prospects for him....this was the time to move on Crede. NOW? Crede (and agent Scott Bora$$) are now heading into A (you guessed it) contract year, COMING OFF major back surgery...and what is Ken Williams doing now? SHOPPING JOE CREDE. You needed to deal him (and Garland and Jose) LAST YEAR when you could actually GET SOMETHING FOR HIM. Shopping a broken down player in a contract year with the most obstinate agent in the game won't get you jack crap. Another nice job by Williams. HE pulled this same s*** with Buehrle...shopping him around in the mid-season and no one wanted to give up the farm for a two month rental. He held face on this one when Buehrle took about 15mill less to stay with the White Sox. Then there was Dye...an aging, injury proned outfielder had a MONSTER year in 2006. He comes up in 2007 and during a contract year WIlliams SHOPS HIM...Boston was willing to toss a couple mid-range prospects at us, but nothing more considering Dye was a TWO MONTH RENTAL. You could have probably gotten some real decent talent for Dye AFTER 2006, not during a broken down 2007. Williams got lucky, DAMN LUCKY to win the World Series in 2005...he stumbled into that one. He's now driving this franchise right into a fooking iceberg. Have you ever seen a GM capable of trading Dye in 06, Thome in 06, Konerko in his prime, Crede before the back problems? Well, if ANYONE can do that, they should be playing the stock market, they'd be making a lot more money than an MLB GM. Please give me some recent examples of teams and GM's that have been so prescient enough to do this? Were you out there saying that we should trade Joe Crede before 06, because his value never would have been higher than at that point. Or that we should have maxxed out the value of Cotts and Politte then, coming off those seasons? Or that Takatsu should have been traded heading in the 05 season? By your logic, we should also trade Konerko, Vazquez, Buehrle, Fields and Jenks right now? Yes? The problem is not the moves he's made...the problem is that he's HAD NO CHOICE But to make these moves because of the farm system's breakdown. If we want to place the blame anywhere, that's the problem, and it's a KW/Shaffer and the entire front office one to be accountable for. If we had actually developed a non-steroids using SS and Brian Anderson became a legitimate major leaguer, we'd not be in this mess. If Sweeney's power matured, there would be no need to re-sign Dye. And despite all the hype around Gio, DeLosSantos, Russell, Egbert, Phillips, Broadway, we still haven't produced a big league starter for seemingly five years, from our own system, with the exception of Brandon McCarthy.

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Nov 19, 2007 -> 02:20 PM) Who's responsible for putting together this aging offense and explosive bullpen, and now shotty rotation? For a GM that saw a team win a World Series title with 4 dominant SP and a lights out bullpen, he sure has become obsessed with offense. But it was also a bullpen centered around the likes of two players in Politte and Cotts who have disappeared from the face of the earth. Bullpens are just too inconsistent on a year to year basis. The big question is whether KW's ego will allow him to take a different approach (which means spending money on a LH reliever in 2006 or not trying to "out-think" the other GM's with the likes of Aardsma and Sisco and Masset). Does anyone see KW spending $7.5 million per season on Scott Linebrink et al? Should we bring back Damaso Marte, lol? Alan Embree? Luis Vizcaino? I don't. Just look at Baltimore for an example of how NOT to spend $20 million on your bullpen last year.

QUOTE(beck72 @ Nov 19, 2007 -> 02:16 PM) Not at the cost of 20 + potential years of major league experience in top talent such as Gio, Fields, De Los Santos, +. He's got a bat to die for [and sign to a long term deal] but not to trade for only 2 years. The big question is who we end up with in CF...if we get another "complementary" player like Crisp or Billy Hall or Rowand. I have a sense we're out of the T. Hunter sweepstakes and will go with someone more in the Pods mold who fits along with the Cabrera/Ozzie Ball/Scioscia style of managing.

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Nov 19, 2007 -> 02:08 PM) Ideally, that would be the only way. This is Kenny Williams though. In 2005, every move KW made turned out to be Gold. I remember his constant fiddling period from 01 through 04, and there were lots of head-scratching moves like this one. The fact of the matter, even if we had say, Chris Young or Aaron Rowand on the 2006-07 White Sox, the same end result would have occured. What moves has KW made that kept us from winning? Please, don't tell me about the reported Astros/Garland trade. The downfall of this club was the deterioration of Garcia and Contreras, along with the implosion of the bullpen and the aging of the offense. Almost like a perfect storm turning against the club, after the way everything meshed so perfectly in 2005 and the first half of 06.

QUOTE(longshot7 @ Nov 19, 2007 -> 02:00 PM) Fernandez won a World series championships with Florida. Wells did not HAVE to go - he several very good seasons afterward, even pitching the Yankees & Red sox to the playoffs. He won 19 games for the 2003 Yankees. Colon has led the Angels to the playoffs several times as well, and won the Cy Young. Long contracts are acceptable if players have won titles, cy youngs, or reached the playoffs. Then it's worth whatever you pay the guy for the seasons he's not so good. Also, what about Foulke and the others? Not re-signing pitching is a MISTAKE. To second guess this is bad baseball. Not making the RIGHT pitching signings, that's BAD baseball. Contreras is a good case in point. He has some time to get back on track, but we're stuck with that contract for two more years, right? Wells NEVER wanted to stay in Chicago, and the White Sox would have been insane to keep him under those circumstances, coming into 2002. He was never going to be happy. Jeff Weaver won a title. Should we now give him $7.5 million to be our fifth starter?

QUOTE(elrockinMT @ Nov 19, 2007 -> 01:54 PM) Garland for Cabrera even up is ridiculous and doesn't do anything positive for this team as far as I am concerned. We have two short stops now and are minus an 18 game winner. I have a real problem with trading quality pitching for a SS. But, it's done and if we don't win maybe KW should be looking for a new job in 2009. As with any trade, we also have to see how it all plays out AND definitely see how much money is coming the Sox way, and what they do with it. If they fill holes in CF or the bullpen or acquire a veteran starter (think someone like Kenny Rogers, albeit a couple of years too late) with that money, then it's starting to make more sense. And if Uribe can make the transition to 2B, if that's really their intention...which is certainly more logical than Jermaine Dye at 1B. I remember Danny Wright had 10+ wins one season...just going by wins can be very misleading, especially with the offense we ran out there from 2004-2006 being well above major league average.

Well, there's always the possibility (and he was very strong in the second half) that Brandon McCarthy becomes a very good pitcher, although his health will always be a question mark with that akward frame until he fills out a little more...Kip Wells was the only other name I could think of who was in his "prime" and didn't have health problems within a couple of seasons. As for the trade, mixed reactions. A lot is contingent on the intelligence of putting Uribe at 2B. Will he defer to Cabrera and move over and be content and motivated? We know somehow we would get 20 homers and 75 RBI's out of him...then again, there are plenty of Mark Lorettas, Grudzielaneks or Tad Iguchi's available for that price. If you look at our starting pitching "surplus" (six deep) versus what we have now in only two solid starters and major questions marks about #3-5, well, this is going to be a make-or-break year for KW and the franchise. Obviously, Cabrera will help the top of the order out...but he's never been a consistent offensive player, year in and year out...and the whole age thing causes some question marks too. Garland is what he is, a VERY solid, dependable #4 starter for any major league ballclub, and a 2/3 for a couple. OTOH, he's never been an ace or a shutdown pitcher or the kind of guy like Contreras or Vazquez or even Brandon McCarthy down the stretch in 2005 who could consistently give up 0-3 runs per game over a month of performances. There are SO many question marks with this team...KW would have been vilified for giving T. Hunter $60 million for four years (well, not by Mariotti) or Rowand $33 million for 3 years or something like Gary Mathews Jr's deal last off-season. With a healthy Crede, we have the makings of a good offense again, if we can find the right CFer. Of course, we have even bigger questions about Contreras, Floyd, Danks, Broadway, Phillips, Gio, Egbert, etc. Right now, we're fighting just to get back to being a respectable .500 club again. The articles I have been reading about the AL Central don't even mention us anymore along with CLE, DET and MIN. The thing that's so unfortunate is having to trade from what used to be a strength (starting pitching) to cover for a lack of talent development....particularly at SS and CF. If the Sox farm system were a little more respectable, this move would have been unnecessary. Although I don't think KW was ever going to pay JG $13-15 million per season over the course of a 3-5 year long-term contract.

QUOTE(kwolf68 @ Aug 31, 2007 -> 01:51 PM) We needed to deal Mackowiak for an aging A ball player so we could get Andy Gonzalez some quality at bats. /extreme sarcasm above Not sure about Dubee (the kid acquired for Iguchi), but overall the deals made were head scratchers with players coming to Chicago that possessed very little (if any) upside. Dealing quality players under the auspices of turning positions over to up and coming players only works if said 'up and coming players' can actually hit their weight. All in all, Williams and Ozzies management of this franchise has been very questionable at best since the World Series. Part of it does seem like a "make good" because of the Garcia deal. Willie Harris...Richar...we've seen this before w/ Durham and Iguchi, and Ray was a better player (but even more expensive, albeit not as old as Tad). If we kept those two guys and we 10 games under .500, how would we be in any better shape? They'd still be gone in the offseason...our team would still be aging and getting WORSE from a fielding perspective...and Rob M. would still be a 4th/5th outfielder type. Nothing more, nothing less. We saw what happened in 2006 when he was an everyday player. As much as we might like Ozuna, Rob M. or Ross Gload, they are utility players for a reason...although 99% of Sox fans would take Pablo back at this point over Andy Gonzalez!

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Aug 31, 2007 -> 10:26 AM) Ever since I noticed the names in the 1B department hitting free agency this offseason, I've wanted to trade Konerko. The best FA 1B this offseason is Shea Hillenbrand. Someone would pay a lot for Pauly. And you would move Crede, Fields or Dye to 1B? Maybe Eddie Pearson or Liefer are still available...

QUOTE(Jenks Heat @ Aug 31, 2007 -> 09:53 AM) I disagree with the AL Central outlook. I am not sold on the Indians at all. They have some nice pieces but they have holes, they also do not shell out cash. The Tigers are getting as old as the White Sox and although they are spending, I think they will slip a little next year. The White Sox are almost forced into a position that they need to make moves and big one's. I am not sure what that means but minor league pitching for positional players ala the Indians last season will be the M.O. and having pitching in the minors in this day and age is much better than positional players and I think this is the stength that Sox fans miss. The back end of the pen, core rotation and run producers are there, they need to fill in the pieces. Why Thome, Konerko, Buerhle and Garland are still hanging around is beyond me they should be kicking back for next season. Our September rotation should be Floyd, Haegar, Masset, Sisco and one anyone else that needs to be on the 40 man. The problem is which of our pitchers have any value to other teams? Gonzalez and De Los Santos would be the highest rated I would guess. Russell? Egbert? Which leaves Broadway, Floyd, McCullough, Philllips, Haeger, Sisco, Masset. This is starting to remind me of the LH reliever tryouts going into the 2006 season...sure, we have a LOT of young pitchers. But can any of them actually pitch and be anything more than a fifth starter or long reliever? Egbert, Philllips and Haeger have so many detractors out there. Floyd is a headcase. McCullough and Broadway just don't have the stuff. Russell is headed for the bullpen apparently with his secondary pitches not quite crisp enough...probably the same situation with Sisco. Which leaves Masset, Egbert or Gio Gonzalez? Maybe FDLS if you REALLY push him developmentally.