caulfield12

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ May 31, 2007 -> 10:40 PM) Fathom, I think that you'd agree that even if Kenny put together the PERFECT, ideal winter, the Sox still wouldn't be much better than where they are now. For example -- for me, the ideal offseason would have been dumping Podsednik for nothing and bringing in someone else on a one year deal for LF -- let's say Trot Nixon. I know you didn't like the Garcia trade a heckuva lot, and I fault Kenny Williams for his questionable 'crush' on Gavin Floyd, but in reality, one year of Gio Gonzalez throwing league average 'ball and we will, at the very least, be even in that trade. That doesn't change the fact that, at the time, it appeared Garcia would have a little more value than a B prospect (at the time, Gio) and a project pitcher in Floyd. McCarthy trade? It's tough to see this trade ending up as a loss for the Sox, although I think B-Mac will wind up being a solid #3. Cotts trade? More of the same -- I don't see how one could call that a bad move at the time the move was made or even now. Cotts was a one pitch pitcher, while Aardsma was coming off a pretty good year as a Cubs reliever. The Vasquez kid is having success at Charlotte, too, and is looking like he can eventually help a big league club, if only as a LOOGY. Sisco trade? Ehh... Everybody loved it at the time, myself included, but after watching Sisco for now (about) three months -- spring training included -- it's tough to envision Sisco ever being anything more than a mediocre LOOGY. My not-trained-to-be-a-scout eye tells me his motion is very wierd -- I don't know how to put it into baseball terms, but it looks awkward, almost 'forced' (if you know what I mean). Meanwhile, Gload, a guy who was ALWAYS underutilized and (dare I say) underappreciated by this organization, would be this team's third best hitter (world's tallest midget with this offense, I know) and would have looked good filling in for Thome when he went down and right now as our LFer. Hall signing? Don't need to talk a whole lot about him, great move, unfortunate injury. Erstad move? I'm not going to talk about this a whole lot. I'm glad that Kenny didn't throw big money at any of the other free agent CFers, but I didn't particularly like the Erstad move (in a starting role). Then again, Anderson has gone down and sucked an egg at Charlotte. I guess this goes back to one of the real fatal trades of the organization, Vazquez for Young. So basically what this comes down to is that I'm not close to calling for Kenny's head yet. He's still a top ten GM in baseball (that's off-the-cuff, but if someone challenged it, I'd be willing to put my personal list of those better/equal to him). What it comes down to is, if Kenny made all the perfect moves this winter, I still don't think we'd be in sniffing distance of Detroit or Cleveland. This year's problems are mainly here for two reasons; first, Kenny tried to have 'one more go' with this core group of players. Most of this 'core' were over the age of 30 -- and sometimes you're playing with fire there. The second lies in the lack of production from the farm system finally biting this team right in the ass. That one lies directly on Kenny's shoulders. He has called attention to it, let's see if things change. Oh, and I know a lot of people are calling for Crede to have been traded, but I'd like to see some posts from the winter calling for Crede to be traded. It's easy to say it now, after he's sucked for two months, but off the top of my head, the only person actively wanting Fields up here on April 1st was beatox -- maybe I'm wrong and missed some posts, though. A lot depends on getting a comparable outfielder to CY back for Garland or Vazquez.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ May 31, 2007 -> 10:32 PM) Detroit loses Kenny Rogers, Zumaya, and Rodney and they still keep winning. Minnesota is struggling a bit but has a payroll many millions below the White Sox, they lose Liriano and Mauer and kick the Sox ass. The Sox get the back-up catcher hurt, Pablo Ozuna hurt and a $1 million guarantee player like Erstad injured who gets hurt every year, and Pods another perrenial injury is out and they look like they may just prove BP's 72-90 PECOTA projection correct. If the Sox fail this year, injuries shouldn't be an excuse. Just look at their offense, with Ordonez the early favorite for MVP. The numbers that players on our rivals are putting up, compared to our best hitters, it's totally unreal, especially after the first half of 06. They're getting good starts from Durbin, even. He had a horrible ERA with the Royals! Just proves that sometimes you can take a player out of a losing organization, put him with the Tigers/Twins (even the White Sox) and he suddenly starts to realize his potential. With Verlander, Bonderman and Robertson, they're pretty slump proof. Ledezma has done a decent job replacing Walker. Andrew Miller could tip the balance in the Central back in their favor if he pitches as projected by many. Throw in Rogers, and they trump anyone in the AL, with the possible exceptions of the Red Sox and Angels. Still, the fact of the matter is that they're only 7 games over .500 and the Twins, A's and Yankees will be on their heels for the rest of the season.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ May 31, 2007 -> 10:14 PM) The Sox have a zero percent chance of signing any Boras client to an extension. Hell, no team except for maybe the Red Sox or Yankees can afford one of his guys because he wants them to test the market. So let's push out our much more productive DH, along with some minor league talent to get a guy whose agent won't let him sign for longer making it a lock he'll walk after less than two seasons. Oh yeah, he's going to cost a TON of money and he is a product of a hitter's ballpark. OKAY? It makes zero sense. Garcia was close to Guillen before coming to the Sox. Boras is on the other side of the universe when it comes to his relationship with the Sox. Then what's the point in keeping Crede? KW must have SOME reason. And I said it would only be a possibility if Teixeira were to sign an extension, which I also said was HIGHLY unlikely. I have yet to see any other realistic ideas. Baldelli? Griffey? Sure, we won't have to mortgage our future for players who will probably go down in a heap, just like Erstad, except they'll cost us Gio, Russell, De Los Santos, Fields or Sweeney. Do you think opposing GM's won't laugh at KW's predicament when he tried to take the cheap approach by signing Erstad and now he needs to bend over and pay the piper for not partaking in the crazy market for Matthews, Pierre and Roberts?

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ May 31, 2007 -> 10:27 PM) Andy Gonzalez my man. He was hitting a solid .240 in Charlotte with no power when he got the call. He's due. Valido's going to turn thing around. Just like Liotta. Just like Honel. Just like Malone. Just like Brian West. Heck, maybe we can bring back Jason Dellaero or Caruso while we're at it.

QUOTE(WhiteSoxfan1986 @ May 31, 2007 -> 10:16 PM) Owens will be replacing him, and there is a damn good chance he will do a better job. Erstad and his .316 on base percentage won't be a huge loss. Yeah, I fully expect Owens to have a .350 OBP as the leadoff hitter. No pressure there, you're only coming into a five game losing streak with every writer in Chicago waiting to pounce on KW, Guillen and Walker after every single loss...pretty soon, they're going to be at the point where they fire Walker, simply because that's the way every sports franchise reacts to underachieving/underperformance. LOL. .350 That's where Erstad was as our leadoff hitter coming into the last couple of games, not sure exactly where he's at now. When Anderson, Sweeney and Fields have struggled and flirted with .200 as big leaguers, we're projecting someone who's not one of our Top 15 prospects to all of a sudden become another Juan Pierre or Bip Roberts? It took Crede and Rowand three seasons to "get it." If Crede has actually gotten it! By the way, Owens makes Johnny Damon look like Roberto Clemente or Vladimir Guerrero with that arm of his. He's not a CFer, which means we're playing Luis Terrero, a 27 year old former top prospect who the Orioles and D-Backs gave up on. This should be interesting.

QUOTE(diegotony06 @ May 31, 2007 -> 09:49 PM) I really don't think attendance will suffer like it did before we won the World Series. You figure we aren't gonna resign Dye, or probably Iguchi. Crede will probably be gone at the end of 2008, if not before, so that frees up his salary. I really believe if we become sellers this year, I think Contreras will be gone, at least I hope he is. As I am writing this, Dusty Baker is on BBTN and he is predicting the Whitesox are gonna get white hot in the month of June, and only be 1 game behind the AL central leader!! hahaha All I am saying, I would do everything I could to keep Buehrle around. I'm not sure if he is gonna get Zito money, I know their numbers are comparable, but Zito also won a Cy Young, Mark hasn't. Plus the market is better this year for statring pitchers. I guess I am just hoping we hang on to this guy. Contreras can't be traded in 2007, no trade clause. QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 31, 2007 -> 09:59 PM) I hope Buehrle stays. I really don't like the thought of him on another team. If we want to get younger we should try to get what we can for the 60 year old that is the number 1 starter for our team. If we can keep Buehrle as a one and have the rest of the rotation with (2) Garland (3) Danks (4) Vazquez (5) Floyd/Gonzalez/Massett then it is both realistically affordable and young. That is if Buehrle isn't looking for Zito money. If he is then forget the whole thing. I don't think he is though. I would rather trade Crede and bring up Fields, Iguchi and give Chris Getz a chance (not sure if he is ready, but I like his attitude, the way he plays, and his numbers), Dye and bring up Sweeney. That is if the Sox are going to start looking at young players. If they are going to trade to try to compete this year then I would like to find a way to get Ichiro, Alexis Rios, and maybe a bullpen guy to go along with Jenks, Thorton and Massett. I still have faith McDougal will get right as well. We don't have anyone that the Jays would trade for Rios besides Gio/Russell/DeLosSantos. We simply cannot trade away young/affordable future starting pitching for position players. The Blue Jays are looking to keep their young players and weather the storm, and they'll be trading Glaus to the highest bidder, or competing with the White Sox if we try to deal Crede. Getz is another version of Aaron Miles or a poor man's Eckstein. He's not ever going to be an MLB regular, utility infielder and cheap replacement for Cintron/Ozuna/Mack is best case scenario. Who would Seattle possibly want on our roster? Not Dye, not Crede, they have Beltre there. The only thing we could give them is starting pitching, but it makes absolutely no sense for them to trade away their franchise player for relatively expensive veteran pitching.

QUOTE(Whitewashed in @ May 31, 2007 -> 10:00 PM) That's a good question fathom... a good question. The same way the Yankees are in last place and haven't won since 2000, the Angels under Moreno haven't gotten back to the World Series despite a much higher payroll and liberal spending, the Dodgers, Cubs, Mariners, Giants, Red Sox (05-06, they have a good shot this year) and many other teams haven't had results by spending money. Generally, the top quartile teams are the ones that make the playoffs year in and year out, with the exceptions of the Marlins, A's and Twins. So unless you're one of those three teams, you need to spend at least $80-85 million to be competitive.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ May 31, 2007 -> 09:58 PM) Technically...I believe Mr. Thome's 2008 season is an option year at $14 million. We wouldn't get anything back in the way of draft picks if he walked, and for all I know there was some unwritten agreement related to picking that up if he was traded...but still, if we're really looking to rebuild and slash payroll... He is owed $43.5 million over the final three seasons of his $85 million, six-year contract. The deal also calls for the final $2.5 million of his $10 million signing bonus to be paid next year, normally the responsibility of the original club. Question. With the White Sox receiving $22 million, how exactly has that been allocated? $7.3 million per year? It seems like we're essentially paying him $8 million per year, correct, assuming we made the $2.5 million payment for the remainder of his bonus...? QUOTE(santo=dorf @ May 31, 2007 -> 10:03 PM) You find me a DH who'll put up the same numbers as Thome for $8 million or less for the next three years. You're already throwing in the towel for 2008? Man you're weak. I thought people giving up on this season lacked "marbles," but you're something else. Tex will be a free agent after 2008, so why should the Sox trade for him if they aren't going to be competitive until 2009? Nevermind. KW lacked marbles last year to improve the team. Why should the fans have any faith in him? He went cheap and tried to build for the future and compete at the same time, and you simply cannot do that without a well-stocked minor league system that produces a couple of bonafide regulars each season. We produce a regular seemingly every five years. Why should I have faith in something that the best thing you can say about it, our magnificent new and improved bullpen, is currently our weakest link? The only way they should trade for him is if they can sign him to an extension, like they did with Garcia. That would have to be agreed upon before the trade, and, as noted, it's HIGHLY unlikely that Boras won't take him into Free Agency. So you think we're going to be able to compete by plugging in Owens or Sweeney into the OF? Heck, Mackowiak's not even a regular player, and now he can't run. Lovely. Okay...I shouldn't be surprised, you're probably an ISU fan who thought McCarney was actually going to turn around the Cyclones too.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ May 31, 2007 -> 09:55 PM) Guess we won't be seeing you as much in Pale Hose Talk? Doubt you live up to it. Erstad isn't a major loss. Umm...and that's because Terrero will do such a good job replacing him? Let me guess, you prefer Sweeney or Anderson in CF? Well, that's not going to happen, I highly doubt we'll ever see Brian Anderson with the major league team again.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ May 31, 2007 -> 09:51 PM) Thome is a lot better against RHP than Tex, and he's not waving his NTC to leave Chicago. You would have to be a complete Jackass to take a year and a half with Teixiera and Boras over 2 and a half years of Thome for about $8 million per. Teixeria away from that damn bandbox in Arlington this year: .250/.367/.480/.847 yawn. Thome doesn't do much good, due to the fact that we won't be competitive again until 2009 or 2010, so you have to try to get younger eventually. I guess they can keep Thome and Konerko and Jim can get his 500th HR in front of 22,000 fans. If I were Thome and went from joining a team that was heading back for another World Series and is now headed in the direction of 2-3 .500 seasons, wouldn't you want to join an organization that gave you the best chance to win it all, like the Angels or possibly the Yankees? I feel bad for Jim that he'll have to waste two years of his career with no chance at all to get to post-season play.

QUOTE(chisoxt @ May 31, 2007 -> 08:09 PM) This post makes zero sense. This Sox team should be a seller, not a buyer. The top half is all the teams that are shopping and I matched them with Sox players that are a possible fit. Most websites still have them looking for bullpen help, but doing it "internally," which means we're screwed for all intents and purposes. Do I need to bring back my fire sale posts from a month ago? I was trying to be a little optimistic, or at least giving both the "sellers" and "buyers" something to talk about, besides our horrific level of play.

QUOTE(AirScott @ May 31, 2007 -> 07:21 PM) OK, so we don't call a hit-and-run with AJ on first...the way Halladay's dealing, you like the chances for AJ to move one base to the next in the next few at-bats till he scores? Really? Right now he's allowed 5 hits in 6 innings. AJ goes first to third on a successful hit-and-run, but otherwise it'd take 3 hits to get him home, 2 if we're lucky. You confident we get those hits to get AJ from first to home? I'm much more confident that Scarlett Johanssen is in the Maxim Top 10 hottest next year...than that happening at this point of the demi-tragedy that is the White Sox season.

QUOTE(SnB @ May 31, 2007 -> 07:15 PM) let's all welcome brian anderson back to teh ballclub. Season over. Bring on Owens, just to piss off the Anderson fans even more.

QUOTE(fathom @ May 31, 2007 -> 06:39 PM) f*** this team. Rob Mackowiak seems to get thrown out at home once a week also. At least things aren't predictable. It would be ONE thing if Mackowiak was healthy and could actually run, that would make trying to score asinine. They can't get a DP, so you just stay at your base. And Rob couldn't score on a single to CF from 2nd base if Johnny Damon fielded the ball at the warning track.

QUOTE(TheOcho @ May 31, 2007 -> 06:35 PM) Watch... we won't score.. We f***ing better. When is Mackowiak going on the DL? He's definitely injured.

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ May 31, 2007 -> 04:48 PM) Bs. You just break it down into enough steps to make it sound "complex". The Sox needed to get one out, then have a better inning before the Twins did. Certainly not "complex", and if that's really only remotely possible, then this team is truly hopeless. We probably would have faced Nathan again, as he only threw a handful of pitches. Impossible? Well, Iguchi almost got to him and Konerko had a huge homer (if I'm recalling correctly) to tie a game against Minnesota off Joe as well, or maybe it was Dye, but one of those two.

QUOTE(WhiteSoxfan1986 @ May 31, 2007 -> 03:38 PM) The problem is who are we gonna replace him with? There sure as hell isn't anyone in our system. Robert Valido looked like he could be a solid option a couple of years ago but that has taken a downward spiral. I'm not sure which SS are FA's at the end of this year, or which ones will be available in trades. Uribe isn't the greatest SS, but he is still one of the best defensive SS in MLB. I HOPE KW is smart enough not to try to rebuild around Vizquel or Eckstein.

QUOTE(CanOfCorn @ May 31, 2007 -> 12:45 PM) Don't forget how fans would be impatient about how quickly the youngsters are developing. Look, all GMs have good and bad trades/drafts/signings. Some are better (Beane, Schuerholtz, Dombrowski) some are worse (Steve Phillips, Wayne Krivsky)...but all try to keep winning with what they are given. Do we trade all these players to fill up the farm system? Fine, but be prepared for near or below .500 for a couple of years. I think we definitely need some youth to mix it up, but it's still a crap shoot. AND don't forget, the injury bug has hit the Sox pretty hard this year. I think fans are intelligent enough to realize we're behind the 8 Ball due to the Tigers' pitching and middle of the order, the Indians' overall strength and youth, the Twins' new stadium and scouting/development advantages...it would be one thing if we were in the NL Central, and I bet Cardinals fans are simply pissed that they didn't do more to put together a ballclub that was competitive for 2007 after winning last year. It's one thing to have the division there for the taking, it's another to have to wait for 3-5 moves to work out perfectly in order to get to 90 wins, which might not even get you a whiff of the playoffs.

Dunn would give you loads of K's, homers, lousy defense and a large salary. It would still be better than Terrero/Mack/Sweeney though. Baldelli's a possibility, simply because of his injury history, so many teams are now shying away from what their GM is asking for, and they can't easily trade Dukes....maybe we should give Gomes or Cantu a shot, just for an offensive infusion. The defensive downside would be pretty bad, though. Mora's played all over the field in his career, although he has stuck at 3B for the last half decade. If you could make him a LF or 2B, you would have something, because of his offensive ability...although he's in that "grey" area, along with Tejada, because of his advancing age.

QUOTE(South Side Fireworks Man @ May 31, 2007 -> 12:47 PM) Where would you see Texiera fitting in with the Sox? You'd have to trade Thome, move Konerko to DH and make Teixeira the starter at 1B. That would make Konerko a very expensive DH, and I don't think he'd go for that...but Mark is one of the few big names out there that are "younger" players and more intriguing. He could hit lefties better than Thome as well.

QUOTE(Chet Lemon @ May 31, 2007 -> 12:34 PM) I wouldn't trade/or not resign Dye unless one of the following: a) other team makes a great offer of young prospects B) kw signs an Ichiro-type FA in the offseason Because we can't afford multiple ?'s in the outfield come spring. I'm not even sure Dye will be capable of playing 145 games in RF or LF for 2008.

Teams that might be looking at Sox players Giants, Dodgers, Angels, Brewers=Joe Crede (although Braun is long-term solution for MIL) Angels=Dye Braves=any starter, Mack and/or Cintron Brewers=Thornton, Logan or Sisco Cubs=will trade outfielders for pitching help Mets=pitching Phillies=bullpen Yankees=pitching Possible targets of interest for the White Sox... Mark Teixeira Dunn Griffey Rich Harden Noah Lowry Jose Capellan--Milwaukee (reliever) Jose Castillo--Pitt. Chris Burke Willy Mo Pena Baldelli Chad Cordero Melvin Mora (OF)

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ May 31, 2007 -> 11:39 AM) So out of curiousity, for those who want to see it, if Kenny Williams were to sell off all of the marketable older parts in the next couple of months, how many of you still be buying tickets to ballgames in September and into 2008? How many would wait for the team to recover and get good again before they went to games again? I know a few people's answers (Steff, I know you will be there), but I am curious to hear if those who are supporting a firesale would still support them team financially. Statistically, it takes five years to lose all the positive elements of winning a World Series out of an organization, 1998 and 2004 Marlins notwithstanding. KW can try to remain competitive for one more year, but I don't think it's possible without Buehrle. I guess it's something of a mixture of late 2006, and 2007 mixed with 2003, the year after we sold off Howry, Lofton, Baldwin, Durham and a few others but remained competitive. I would guess we'd be averaging around 23,000-25,000 per game, just throwing out a range. And that our payroll would be adjusted back to 2005 levels...$70-80 million. And KW would have to swallow and laugh off his comments about being a championship organization that reloads, any similarities to the Braves or Yankees, competing w/ the Cubs for the heart of the city's fans, etc. I'm just not sure how easily he can protect his ego after being on top in 2005. I think he still is in "add" mode rather than subtract.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ May 31, 2007 -> 11:27 AM) I agree we will improve with the proper shakeup, but it will take more than that to finish 2nd in this division. Agreed with everything else though, the fact Jerry Owens isn't in LF and hitting leadoff for us right now, when you take into account the year he's having, his age, and our injury problems, is pretty strange to me. And the fact we haven't already blown up the bullpen (that's the one thing we all know sucks) is also strange to me considering their salaries, age, and arbitration status. How can you call the 9th yesterday up for debate? It was horribly managed and a big reason why the game didn't go extras, and leaving your best bullet in the holster when it's based loaded 2 outs for Torii Hunter is one of the worst moves I've ever seen Ozzie make. But again, how am I a Guillen basher when I'm telling you KW and Wilder are higher on the firing squad totem pole, as are many of the players, than Ozzie at the moment? How do you "blow up" our current bullpen? Dump MacDougal and get nothing in return after trading Lumsden for him? Obviously, Sisco and probably Aardsma now are ticket for Charlotte. Do you want to trade Jenks or Thornton? Well, that doesn't solve anything in the long-term either. Logan deserves to stay...we probably will try to add a veteran righty and pay way too much to do it. I just don't see how sending Day and Aardsma back down to the minors is not in the cards. Which leaves Jenks/Thornton/Logan, Masset (if he's not a starter next year) possibly MacDougal and then what? Unfortunately, we don't have any top prospects that can be counted on as a relievers, so you're left converting Floyd, Phillips, Broadway, Haeger and possibly Gio or Russell into mop-up men. It's not

QUOTE(fathom @ May 31, 2007 -> 11:20 AM) This is a great point. This offense, combined with how Ozzie wants to manage, is a terrible combination. That's why KW and Ozzie deserve a lot of blame for how things have fallen so fast in the last 120 games or so. As you keep saying, we need more athletes. Teams usually have athletic 2b and SS....we clearly don't. Uribe is a fine athlete, he just isn't a very proficient base stealer, and his weight gain last year hurt him. Iguchi is aging, no doubt about that. So if you're looking at Castillo-Casillas/Bartlett, Barfield/Peralta, Guillen/Polanco and even Grudzielanek/Pena, they're all probably more physically gifted and athletic than what we put out there, although you can make an argument we're even with the DET middle infield combo athletically...or pretty close. So we go out and get someone like Erick Aybar from the Angels and hope he emerges into a solid 700-750 OPS middle infielder who can get you 25-35 steals per season. Playing Aybar, a natural SS at first, also makes our infield defense a heckuva lot stronger, if we can find the right SS to pair with him. The irony is that Uribe is the youngest of our regulars, and it seems as if he has been around 15 years in the big leagues.