michelangelosmonkey

This was wonderfully said. I would say that I'm not sure the Sox go after a GG type pitcher. I would also love to see them sign Bauer but the larger point is that they need five starters. Right now they have three chiseled in...Gio, Dallas, LL (5,6 and 7 in CY Young voting). You have Cease etched in...for all the trash he takes he was 5-4 last year with a 4.01 ERA...and with natural improvement as he ages and a new smart guy pitching coach it sure seems like he could get much better. So that leaves a fifth spot...do we really want to clog up that spot with a Garret Richards type...when we have Kopech ready? OK he's not going to be a 200 innings guy but having a Tampa Bay type "starter" game with Kopech for three followed by Crochett by three...what team wants to face that? Who wouldn't pay to watch that? And as our FIFTH starter? As for an emergency starter...we have our own reclamation product in Reylo...he has tons of natural ability and again...new modern pitching coach. I think they are set for war...the lineup looks great, the defense looks great, the relief staff looks great...and I kind of think the starters look great. Save the Bauer money for extensions to Gio and Lynn and let's head to spring training. Re-evaluate at the trade deadline.

Where on earth did you draw that conclusion? If you think this is a finished project youre more optimistic to me. But that doesnt mean they shouldnt take a shot this year while hoping Moncada, Robert, Eloy, Vaughan and all the young pitchers take the next step.

Baseball reference shows him with .5 WAR in 29 games...which comes out to 2.5 WAR per season...as a 23 year old...at near zero cost. The glory of the White Sox right now is that they have so many guys that will be going through growing pains that you won't even notice. Robert and Eloy and Madrigal and Vaughan and Cease and Kopech and on and on can go through a bad month without it costing us because it is liking when they are having a good month they can be so good.

No he hurt his shoulder five games into his rookie season, was out for three weeks...came back and played the rest of the season almost certainly in pain as he had surgery on that shoulder as soon as the season was done. I'm no doctor but it would seem the act of diving for a ball or to steal a base would be mentally and physically terrifying for a 23 year old playing in the majors for the first time and might effect his fielding and baserunning. But you are right...Pods was amazing before he was hurt...and his skill should be considered outside of the stats when he was playing hurt.

So you are saying that Pods lack of success after his injury is not worth considering...and yet Madrigal's injury is irrelevant? Just asking for a friend.

I mean who are you to say that Soxsteve's strong opinion is wrong? Some guy on Soxtalk claims to be an insider and thus he knows more? You know what would happen if the "insider' were ACTUALLY an insider (maybe he is) and he was outed...so now it is...Paul Sullivan reports White Sox are shopping Madrigal...Half the board would say...when was the last time Sullivan ever reported anything he's just throwing crap against the wall...a quarter of the board would say he is just a mouth piece for Jerry Reinsdorf...and a quarter of the board would be panicked that we were trading Madrigal for Tampa Bay's garbage. No one knows the future with any certainty at all including Rick Hahn and to confidently shout someone down for having the wrong opinion is goofy. SoxSteve makes a strong point that core pieces of the rebuild like Madrigal and Vaughan should not be traded. I made a point about us undervaluing the skillset of Madrigal and we would be foolish to trade him away. But I also think RH would be foolish for not seeing what he can get for Madrigal...and Vaughan...and everyone else. I'm sure he'd take a call from the Yankees...Robert for Gerrit Cole? Or the Mets...Moncada for deGrom? OK, let's talk. Like any knucklehead in a fantasy league the point is to value our assets and get a sense of how other teams value of our assets...and if we see a way to leverage a trade to make the Sox better let's consider. Personally I'd like to stand pat from here and see how the soufflé rises. In the off season we've added a top 10 starting pitcher, a top 5 relief pitcher, a historically useful right fielder and seem to be replacing EE with the very exciting Vaughan and the only asset we lost is one of our 12 exciting young unproven starting pitchers...and Vegas looks at our team and loves us. Soxtalk should be a love fest.

Soxtalk is a meandering river. You should see our debate on thermodynamics in the "NBC Sports is going away" thread.

So what sample size did you require to determine his uselessness? First major league game? First inning of a major league game? Those idiots at BA, MLB.com, MLB pipeline and Baseball prospectus all have thought for the last two years that he was one of the 50 best prospects in all of baseball. He won the PAC 12 player of the year, College gold glove, PAC 12 defensive player of the year. First year in the minors he won the GG for minor league 2b while hitting .311. Are they using a different baseball in the majors? Is there some fundamental reason his entire history and the scores of scouts and analysts that think he is a +fielder and +runner are all wrong?

Poppy I love your optimism. What frustrates me is the near universal belief on Soxtalk that someone with Madrigal's skill set is so replaceable. Tampa Bay traded with Oakland to get a 2b in 2018. TB is a smart team. That year their second base man hit 7 home runs, stole 16 of 20 bases and put up a .300/.354/.435 slash line...and was worth 4.8 WAR. That was the 22nd best WAR for all non pitchers in the majors. That's what people see in Madrigal. Fangraph says 2B is one of the weakest positions in baseball...Yolmer was the average 2B in 2018. Perhaps the White Sox have totally given up on him given the couple of outs he ran into on the base path and the couple of errors he made as a 23 year old rookie as our "insiders" say. Perhaps three or four silly mistakes for a first time major leaguer are too much to look past while the .340 batting average is just SSS. I just think Hahn is smarter than that...and there are very few pitchers out there that are worth the risk of losing a 3 WAR player for the next 6 years at a talent starved position that will cost almost nothing.

Honestly...this can't be true? Why would he come to a team with a racist, drunken manager the cheapest owner in baseball, the dumbest GM in baseball, a team that will NEVER sign a high priced free agent, and that as we speak are trading our entire farm system for the Phillies mascot. Is he even aware of our record from 2013 -2019? Did he know we traded Fernando Tatis, Jr. Soxtalk where optimism goes to be strangled to death.

That's a real dick comment. Sorry if you got confused by my Musgrove comments...where he had two good starts at the end of the COVID season preceded by 32 starts where he gave up 5.3 runs a game. I thought that might be relevant data points to discuss...I thought it was an interesting fact that might be worth consideration that wasn't easily seen. Perhaps it was confusing to you and you will stalk me through threads calling me the "guy who takes out his best games". Troll on.

He his .341 his rookie year, provided the equivalent of 2 WAR offense and 1 WAR defense (30 games x 5) at 23. Why are Nellie Fox comps not still in order? Why is it hyperventilating to be excited about a player that is exactly the kind of player that this team needs? When half the board wants to trade him for a bucket of balls. The idea that we can "easily" upgrade him is curious...FG's suggests 2B is one of the weakest positions in baseball. You know how many 2B in 2019 had a WAR better than 3? 8 in all of baseball. We need to give this kid as much patience as we do with all the other budding stars on the team.

I'm fairly certain that Soxtalk has half a dozen very active trolls that hate everything and everybody related to the White Sox and just post nonsense in every thread to irritate the rest of us. It's SO idiotic to draw conclusions about a 23 year old rookie in his first 29 games in the MLB....especially when countering all the people that watched every game he played in college and the minors and predicted he would be a great fielder and baserunner. While I may be overly optimistic about Madrigal...if he is Eckstein 2.0...well he averaged 3.2 WAR per season his first 5 years in baseball and he didn't get started until 26. I'm ok with Madrigal at league minimum providing us a 3 WAR per year through our window.

And he decided to wait to unleash this masterful new pitching in the last 13 innings of what had been a season giving up nearly 6 runs a game. I think our positions are pretty well set and your contempt for me is spilling over...so let's move in. Still, the Arrieta comp is interesting.

No I'm saying the Cards playing 3 doubleheaders in a week on the road, then having a day game after a night game...10 games in less than 7 days on the road might lead to exhaustion and partly explain the best game of his career.

Wow...Arrieta is a great example...27, garbage before then...but his FIP and ERA were pretty much the same except 2012 when there was a huge difference and maybe that's what the Cubs saw.

You should have seen how great the Saints cornerbacks played the Bronco's WRs in that game where the Bronco's quarterback wasn't in the league two days before the game...ONE completion....13 yards passing...all the field cast data showing coverage rates were off the charts saying Saints secondary could be set for an amazing rise...or, you know, maybe it was just a weird thing that happened once.

Stop it...I NEVER agued that Lopez is better than Musgrove...I argued Lopez and Musgrove were both 27+ year old failed top prospects and that Stiever + Lopez ++ is better than Musgrove.

Yes...there's a lot to hate about Lopez...but it's just hard to forget the 14 strikeout 6 inning game against the Tigers or the one hitter against the Indians late in the season. He's only 27 and Katz...ever hopeful...but I agree we don't want to start the season with him as our fifth starter.

I'm arguing that somewhere inside of Reylo is an amazing pitcher. I hope Katz can pull it out of him. Nothing more than that.

And just to have a bit of fun with Cherry Picking...his ten best starts in 2019: 68 Innings pitched, 84 strike outs to 18 walks, 1.19 ERA Oh Reylo...how you tantalized us...and now you are unredeemable garbage.

No his last 32 starts from May 1st 2019 to mid September 2020 his ERA was 5.28. And ultimately FIP should equal ERA...and I wrote that I went back and looked at several three year periods where a guy with a FIP half a run lower than his ERA portended a break out guy and in the two periods I found no examples. Doesn't mean I'm right...doesn't mean you are wrong...it just means I'm very cautious about this. And honestly...if Reylo had finished 2020 with the exact same two starts in late September against the exact same two teams...NO ONE on this board would be saying...this guy is a breakthrough #3 starter or maybe better. We would all be saying...well that was weird...interesting...intriguing...but I don't trust it.

Wow thats pretty hostile. I wasnt being dense about his "bad" start..he had a total of 0 quality starts in 2020 before the wonder two. He had two starts, in September, after his injury, where he gave up 2 runs in 3 innings and 4 runs in 5 innings. I thought those were bad two...as were several other ugly 2020 starts....thats how you end up with an era near 6 in mid September. As for the corraborating scouts where you imply I'm an idiot..you gave one un-named high ranking NL "official". Pirates VP of sales is a NL official. Anyway Im tired of this. Two inarguable facts-- JM was amazing his last two starts and he was terrible the previous 32. peace

He didn't have one AWEFUL game that drove down his stats. That was Lance Lynn. Again...his WAR (baseball reference) show's him for his whole career as a 1 WAR kind of a guy. When people started throwing around his fWAR and all sorts of reasons why he is a hidden gem...I looked deeper. Not sure why you are slamming me...if he had a long history of being really good and then had a down period because of arm troubles and I ignored that well then I'm a dope. But why is what I'm saying not at least interesting? I'm not saying it's conclusive...spin rates, and xfip and usage rates and whatever all sounds very sciency...but why have the results been so mediocre. Especially when the two GREAT performances came from weird situations. If you told me the New Orleans Saints pass defense was amazing and used as a data point their game against the Broncos where they held them to 1 completion and 13 yards of total passing offense...without the context that Denver was missing their top 4 quarterbacks because of COVID I would say the stats are a bit tainted. I am fairly certain no team in 50 years has played 10 road games in 7 days. Danny Duffy and his 5 ERA also shut out the Indians.

I don't get why you are ignoring his previous 32 starts before those last two fluky starts in 2020. ERA of 5.28 in 32 starts...a full season of Reylo. ERA is what actually happened. xFIP is what some people think may have happened if what happened didn't happen...and as I wrote...FIP should be predictive...you should be able to get in your time machine and go back and find someone on a bad team that has a FIP 1/2 a run lower than his ERA and then see how that flower blossomed...and I went over two different three year periods from 10 and 13 years ago (arbitrarily) and basically found no one. I wouldn't mind taking a flier on someone like that for nothing...but trading assets for that???? People on here are willing to trade Madrigal ++ for him.