TLAK

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Dec 21, 2005 -> 12:41 PM) Willie was non-tendered. Is it safe to call him Free Willie now?

Whether you feel the moves are great or bad it sure looks like the busiest off season since the 97 Marlins took their team apart, a very different situation then what KW is trying to do. I have a file of transactions (from RetroSheet) that goes up to 2003. I linked it to players from the WS winner who had either 1 AB or 1/3 IP in the series, and were traded or released between October of the WS year and the following April. The White Sox are at 8 so far under this criteria. I'm not as comfortable with this file as I am with the rest of the Lahman dB so on the left I show the totals by year since 1980 and on the right the details from the last 15 years, to see if anybody can find some flaws, ie I'm pretty sure retirements don't show. (The reason Homer Bush didn't show up from the 98 Yankees is he didn't have an AB in the WS).

As to the Yankee team, the 1998 Yankees traded Homer Bush (71 AB), Graeme Lloyd (49.0 IP) and David Wells (214 IP) to the Toronto Blue Jays for certain HOF’er Roger Clemens. Everyone else who appeared in the 1998 series also appeared in the 1999 series (Spencer was DL’d). I think changing 3 of 25 players is different than 8 of 25 players, 9 with Big Frank. The Yankees subtracted 1% of their AB and 18% of their IP. The Sox subtractions total 28% of their AB and 17% of their IP without bringing in Roger f’ing Clemens. No one has named a team that made changes on the scale of the White Sox and repeated. We’ve already had pages and pages of threads on this subject. It comes down to your appreciation of the now departed players, who I thought were pretty good. I think KW and his supporters are wrong, you all think I’m crazy. I’m willing to leave it at that.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Dec 21, 2005 -> 07:32 AM) Can you tell me the last team that did stand pat and repeat in MLB? The New York Yankees. While we're at it, name me the last team that changed over 1/3 of the team and DID repeat.

Wow, the World Champions don't get any respect, even from their own GM, after they won 99 games and went 11-1 against baseball's best in the playoffs. What an incredible statement.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 20, 2005 -> 06:50 PM) Oh I'm pretty happy the deal went through. But the level of my happiness is pretty dependent on whether we are paying Vazquez 8M a year or 12M a year (equivalent). I'm just not sure he's a 12M a year pitcher. If history is any guide you can expect him to throw 10-12 great games, 10-12 mediocre games and get blown off the mound 10 times. I hope Don Cooper works his magic with him, because thats what it will take to turn this guy into a Champion. Look up his day by day before you flame me.

QUOTE(Texsox @ Dec 18, 2005 -> 12:21 PM) People were saying the same thing about Konerko up until he signed his contract. I am not convinced that Garland will not sign. By trading him, he are getting rid of a player who is entering his prime and could be part of a tremendous pitching staff that would rival the Braves of the 90s. Didn't the White Sox do this same dance with Mark Buerhle? I think half the board had him St. Louis.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Dec 18, 2005 -> 07:43 AM) How is this a concern for next year? We now have three guys who can play first base -- Konerko, Thome, and Mackowiak. I was thinking of power/RBIs, Mack might just be the man, he has hit 17 in the past. The rest of the bench, sans JoBo, looks pretty punch and judy.

QUOTE(Felix @ Dec 18, 2005 -> 07:36 AM) I do? A pitcher has just about the same influence as his teams offense. Look at Roger Clemens last year. Amazing season, and should have won the Cy Young, but he didn't have a lot of wins. Look at Jon Lieber last year. He won 17 games, but had a 4+ ERA and 1.2+ WHIP. Would you say that Lieber was a better pitcher because he won more games? Hell, lets put it this way. Again looking at last years stats, Rodrigo Lopez and John Smoltz (or Roger Clemens if you want, its the same result). Lopez won 15 games, while Smoltz won 14. Lopez had a 4.90 ERA, while Smoltz had a 3.06 ERA. Lopez had a 1.41 WHIP, while Smoltz had a 1.15 WHIP. Are you going to tell me Lopez was a better pitcher last year because he won more games? Thats an interesting take. I pulled the daily records of the guys you mentioned from Baseball Musings and added the White Sox rotation. All these guys are pretty successful so I also added 7-16 Nate Robertson for comparison. I calc'd the pitcher's ERA for that day and if he got a decision. You're looking at ERA here not raw runs and the ERA is based on that day only. At the bottom I totaled them by excellent, meh and horrible outings. Viewed this way, Clemens was indeed fantastic and the qualitative difference between Smoltz and Lopez is striking, even greater than your stats show. Smoltz had 20 excellent outings and got 11 wins out of them, Lopez had only 15 excellent ones and still got 11 wins out of them. But Smoltz only had 2 horrible outings while Lopez buried his team 12 times. The pitcher who gives his team a good chance to win every start is the better pitcher, which is a very long winded way to say I agree with you. D_ERA Group Buerhle Clemens Contreras Garcia Garland Hernandez Lieber Lopez Robertson Smoltz Vazquez 0 47 ( 30-1) 7 (5- 0) 11 (5- 0) 4 (3- 0) 3 (2- 0) 5 (4- 0) 3 (1- 0) 2 (1- 0) 4 (3- 1) 3 (2- 0) 2 (1- 0) 3 (3- 0) 0+-3 132 ( 79-20) 10 (8- 1) 15 (7- 4) 12 (8- 0) 12 (9- 1) 13 (9- 2) 5 (3- 1) 13 (8- 2) 11 (8- 1) 10 (3- 3) 18 (10- 2) 13 (6- 3) 3+-6 95 ( 34-32) 11 (3- 4) 2 (0- 1) 10 (4- 3) 11 (2- 3) 6 (3- 2) 10 (5- 3) 12 (7- 4) 8 (3- 3) 7 (2- 3) 11 (3- 3) 7 (2- 3) 6+-10 39 ( 6-26) 3 (0- 2) 3 (1- 2) 4 (0- 2) 4 (1- 2) 4 (2- 2) 2 (0- 2) 3 (1- 2) 5 (1- 3) 5 (0- 4) 1 (0- 1) 5 (0- 4) 10+ 40 ( 0-34) 2 (0- 1) 1 (0- 1) 2 (0- 2) 3 (0- 2) 4 (0- 4) 4 (0- 3) 5 (0- 5) 7 (0- 4) 6 (0- 6) 1 (0- 1) 5 (0- 5) Excellent 179 ( 109-21) 17 (13- 1) 26 (12- 4) 16 (11- 0) 15 (11- 1) 18 (13- 2) 8 (4- 1) 15 (9- 2) 15 (11- 2) 13 (5- 3) 20 (11- 2) 16 (9- 3) Meh 95 ( 34-32) 11 (3- 4) 2 (0- 1) 10 (4- 3) 11 (2- 3) 6 (3- 2) 10 (5- 3) 12 (7- 4) 8 (3- 3) 7 (2- 3) 11 (3- 3) 7 (2- 3) Horrible 79 ( 6-60) 5 (0- 3) 4 (1- 3) 6 (0- 4) 7 (1- 4) 8 (2- 6) 6 (0- 5) 8 (1- 7) 12 (1- 7) 11 (0- 10) 2 (0- 2) 10 (0- 9)

QUOTE(beck72 @ Dec 18, 2005 -> 05:09 AM) At first glance, I definitely thought Joe B, or someone like DaVanon who can play all 3 OF spots in order to rest POds, Anderson and Dye. Yet Willie is a good insurance policy in case Iguchi goes down. I don't know if Mack or Ozuna could handle 2b full time. If they could [or least until the sox could make a deadline trade for a replacement, then bye bye Willie. My guess is it's an OFer. And Joe B does have value as a 4th Ofer, pinch hit HR threat and solid d around the OF One more thing to consider is who backs up Kong/Thome in case something happens to one of them? I suppose you could run one of the young guys out into RF and DH Jermaine Dye? Or Mackowiak? You might want to use the last place on the roster to pick up an older player, like a Matt Stairs type, to serve as insurance.

QUOTE(palehose23 @ Dec 18, 2005 -> 06:49 AM) I respect your opinion but like others have said on this subject Rooney left the Sox because he was always wanted to be the Cards play by play guy (ala Wayne Larivee leaving the Bears for the Packers). The Score, White Sox, and Rooney were in negotiations and then John cut off talks abrutly. The Cardinals job wasn't open when Rooney and the Score were negotiating. They fired Wayne Hagen (and will eat the last year of his contract) a month after Rooney decided to leave. The Score/Rooney negotiations ended in September and at the time the rumors had him going to LAA. If something was going on behind the scenes between Rooney and the Cards, they did a great job a keeping it a secret.

I don't get all the fuss. Before the WBC begins, non-Asian players will report to their own MLB team camps at the regular time to start their training, then they leave on Mar 3 to play in the Tourney. The Asian tourney camp opens Feb 26 and I'm not clear if they will start at the MLB team camps first, the mandatory reporting date to MLB team camps is Feb 28 this year, voluntary for pitchers/catchers is Feb 16, everyone else Feb 21. During the Tournament there are (by rule) pitch count limits for the hurlers and innings limits for the position players. As soon as any team is eliminated the players go back to their own MLB camp, the last game for the champion is Mar 20. The entire show is owned by MLB and MLBPA so there is no interest in abusing the players. It doesn't seem to me that anyone will get more work than they would have if there was no tournament.

QUOTE(Mplssoxfan @ Dec 16, 2005 -> 08:05 PM) Fast as all hell, couldn't hit his hat size. Geoff Blum. OK, Rodney McCray. Good one, I forgot he was even on the White Sox. I looked him up, 13 AB 2 H. Alan Bannister

QUOTE(kevin57 @ Dec 16, 2005 -> 07:49 PM) While I agree with most of your post, 99 wins sure looks dominant to me. Best record in the American League by 4 games.

QUOTE(joeynach @ Dec 16, 2005 -> 02:29 PM) 1. What I meant was that these guys had career years, the definiton being their breakout year, their best performance yet. They dont call it a career year if its expected over and over, it happens once. Im glad our guys did what they did I dont see Hermy starting out with a 0.00 ERA into mid may again and politte with a sub 1.00 ERA at the ASB. Our guys our good, but regression towards the mean (towards career averages) is more likely than a repeat performance of a career year. 2. The question is does Thome/Anderson make us better than Rowand/Everett, Thomas was out of the mix in 2005 for all I am concerned and not part of the regular deal. The answer is yes, or the sox would not have done this deal. Thome can be a flat out force and could put up numbers at the Cell we have never seen before. As for Rowand his .270 BA could be easily replaced even if Anderson hits .260 his rookies yea I beleive he can be consisten .280+ hitter with above average power. The real question is do our upgrades make us better than the players we lost and the Answer is yes. The game is a team game, Vazquez makes our whole team better as does Thome. Mackowiak too makes us a deeper more well rounded team. 3. Did he. McCarthy is still an unproven commodity. Can he pitch 200+ innings, can he be effective the whole time? Will the league adjust? The sox rotation amased more innings than ever before, Vazquez is insurance for being an inning eater. Having McCarthy as your 5th starter gives you 4 solid startes and 1 question mark/ rookie experiemnt. After winning the world series is it time to experiemnt with minor leaguers I dont thinks so. Its time to be the best you can be. 5 proven starters, who can go late into games and have the experience and talent to become a dominat piching force is what KW wanted. How do you make a great team better, YOU ADD TO YOUR STRENGTHS!!! Point 1. I buy everything you say. But isn't everything you say still true whether the trades are made or not? Point 2. Thomas hit 12 HR for this team, they counted. Everett hit 23. That’s 35 out of the DH position. Folks (including me) are hoping Thome returns to form and hits 40. So to pick up the theoretical 5 HR KW traded a proven CF. It will be interesting, but meaningless, to compare Thomas/Everett/Rowand to Thome/Anderson after 06 (but I hope we have better things to do). I like Mackowiak, but KW traded something he doesn't have a replacement for, a serviceable LH reliever, while he let a pretty good player, Geoff Blum, walk away for nothing. I'll buy that Mackowiak is stronger than Blum straight up, but not that he is better than Blum + Marte. KW filled a need of his own making, I don't get it. Point 3. From your post, I guess it's OK to experiment with a rookie CF when it suits your purpose in point 2 but not a with rookie pitcher in point 3. The ifs and questions your raise about BMAC are indisputable, nobody knows for sure how he will do. But we have a sample size of 8 seasons to indicate that Vazquez is pitcher with a golden arm and mediocre results. The guy is 89-93 lifetime; his career year is 16-11, last season he was 11-15 with a 4.42 ERA in the NL, yet you argue that he is a dominant pitcher worthy of the steep price KW paid? The 2005 team won the central division by 6 games and went 11-1 in the post season. They didn't play in a fantasy league with statistics; they won because the guys did the jobs they were asked to do that day. No one, even intelligent posters like you, Joeynach, has convinced me that the 06 team will be better or even as good.

QUOTE(joeynach @ Dec 16, 2005 -> 04:26 AM) Kenny knows you cant repeat the magic, you cant repeat luck, and you cant repeat the career years posted by Garland, Cotts, Politte, Hermy, Contreras, and others. The sox with all their strength using the most commong statistical formula (the pythagorean formula) were projected to be a 90 win team. They won 99 games, they overachieved. That being said how do we win 99 games again without the intangibles and the balls bouncing our way. You upgrade, remove the weakest pieces from the whole season and improve them. Thome is an upgrade over Everett, Anderseon might even hit higer than Rowand's .270, Vazquez is an upgrade over the 5+ Era and 2 DL stint El Duque. Kenny knows that the sox did to win the world series might never happen again, magic, we got hot at the right time. The red sox and yankees were weak and cleveland with a better starting staff than us started out like 15-30. The ball may not bounce the sox way again and KW did what he had to do to keep this team competitive. Rowand was great so we say thanks for all the great plays in center its time to move on. El Duque was great in 1/2 inning in boston so we say thank you now we need a btter #5 pitcher. You cant keep him around based on what he did in 1/2 inning. You need to get back the playoffs first and get back to the world series second. Those are not things easily done with a 5th starter who makes 20 of the normal 35 starts and posts a 5+ era. Thank You Blum, Rowand, El Duque, and Everett; it all came together and they were part of something special. Life goes on and another season approaches. The clock doesn't stop ticing just because we won the world series, everyone else out there is getting better too. But 1. he kept all the guys you said had career years and won't repeat their performances. 2. is the net combination of Thome/Anderson/Owens better than Everett/Thomas/Rowand? 3. he already had a great backup plan for the 5th spot in BMac, so why Vazquez?

QUOTE(dmbjeff @ Dec 16, 2005 -> 03:49 AM) you will be emotionally attached to the 2006 team too if they win it again You are right about that my freind. Right now, I'm just mad at Kenny for taking a team that we know was good enough to win the World Series and making it into a team with some major ifs. IF Thome stays healthy, shakes off last season and hits like he did in years past, IF one of Anderson/Owens is really a Major Leaguer, IF Vazquez pitches better than his 89-93 record over his 8 seasons, IF they find serevicable LH and RH relievers. IF all these things break right they have a chance to be as good as the group he just broke up. It just makes no sense to me. And then when I add in the prospects he gave up in return for these risks, I just shake my head.

I appreciate your rant but feel you underrate the contribution the departed players made. The White Sox traded away or non-tendered 49 HR and 185 RBI from the 2005 team. The players they added hit 16 and 88 last year. Should Thome stay healthy and return to his career average the new guys would be at 49 and 169, plus what ever they pick up from who ever wins the Center Field derby. They traded away a combined 244 innings with a 4.43 ERA in the American League and an 18-18 record. They picked up 216 innings, 4.42 in the National League and an 11-18 record. The White Sox don’t have any proven arms to replace the relief pitchers so projecting the net effect on the pitching is a crap shoot. I think the White Sox are taking a great risk here. I was emotionally attached to the 2005 group, but that’s just my take and anybody else’s take on it is fine with me. But getting past that I’m having a hard time buying into all the love being showered on Kenny Williams.

QUOTE(tonyho7476 @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 08:05 AM) Maybe you should join the North Side of town. They like un-knowing fans. Come on man. You really think the exact same team could do it again? They had a lot of things go their way. They offense was bad and needed an upgrade. We got Thome, but lost Rowand. Ok, Rowand's bat was not too great. His D was good, but Brian Anderson will be able to do it. Kenny wouldn't have made the trade if he felt any different. Prospects need to be played or traded. That's what we are doing. And El Duque sucked last year, when he pitched. I'm starting to think you need to take your medication. And FYI, I took mine. No reason to repeat the whole thread, I respect all your opinions and everybody has had ther say. I take solace in the fact that Steve Phillips loves these moves.

Wow, what a response, if some of these posters had as many brains as pimples I'd be concerned. The last team to repeat was the 2000 New York Yankees. They changed the 5th starter, everyone else who played a lot was back. They also won in 1998 with the same group but had not added Clemens yet so David Wells was there. The 2002 Angels stood pat and didn't repeat , but they went through injuries that would sink anybody. So I don't buy that a Championship team absolutely must make massive changes to repeat. We will never know if the 2005 group was good enough to repeat. The 2006 team might be as good or better but it is a different team. I especially don't like bringing in Vazquez who I think is overrated and overhyped. I don't see where the innings to replace Marte and Vizcaino's situations are going to come from. I'm saddened by all this, and I question KW's wisdom.

One more point and I'll shut up. Javier Vazquez was 11-15 with a 4.52 ERA in the NL. Orlando Hernandez was 9-9 with a 5.12 ERA in the AL. Qualitatively that’s probably a slight edge for El Duke. I can't argue when you thow in the innings diference (216 V 128) but on any given day, I don't see much better chance of winning with Vazquez than with El Duke. Vazquez has the big name and big reputation but the couple times I saw him on TV last year he got lit up. Now I will drink my milk, take my pill and go to sleep.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 08:48 PM) Sure they all contributed but outside of Aaron none of them were important to this team at all. We've got rid of our 3 worst pitchers and have added a guy with a number 1's arm, one of the better lh hitters in baseball and one of best utility guys in the game. Right now this team is much better then lasts on paper. In 2006 Thome V Carl/Frank should be an improvement unless Frank stays healthy. Frank is musch less likely to stay healthy than Thome is but then again he had Everett to back him up. Anderson V Rowand is probably a downgrade. El Duke V Vasquel is probably a wash unless Javier recovers his form from two years ago, he has had some great games he throws a lot of stinkers too. Makowiak v Harris/Blum should be an improvement. Vizcaino V who? Bajanero? Marte V who ? Munoz?

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 08:42 PM) He's not tearing anything apart, we've lost 1 guy who played a major role for this team last year. Every one of them except Frank contributed, thats how that team worked.

QUOTE(103 mph screwball @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 08:35 PM) I don't want to be repetative but I posted the following in the trade winds section. I had to post it here: KW isn't dumping his championship team. He is building a dynasty. He is executing a hostile take over of the Chicago baseball market. Rowand leaving hurt. But it brought back a future hall of famer, Thome, who then was a factor in bringing back Konerko. Hernandez and Marte no longer fit. Viz was expendable. These players plus a very good prospect Young. In return he has gotten back the super utility, Sox fan, RMack and the potential #2 (hopefully after Cooper is done) Vasquez at 7.5 per with 3 years of rights. I'm sure Garland, Count, Crede, and other key players in the future will be given the opportunity to sign with the Sox at what KW feels they are worth and what the Sox can afford. He doesn't necessarily want to get rid of them. I'm sure KW understands their business decision. With this approach, he will lock up players with fair contracts. Players who want to stay with the Sox. Those that don't want to stay, he will trade for player who do want to be Sox or are locked into fair contracts. He's not letting players walk without getting something in return and at the same time he's building good team chemistry with players happy to be Sox. Freakin Brilliant if your ask me. I'm not too worried about the farm system either. How can KW keep trading away these prospects? He has an eye for diamonds in the rough. Guys like Jenks, Uribe, Owens ect. and he gets them cheap. Shingo and Iguchi have been impact players from Japan. Also do not forget that winning and building his dynasty will bring in more payroll money and the Sox will need fewer young cheap players I trust KW. He is the GM of the World Champions!! Intellectually I know you guys have a good case. But after years and years and years of failure this group of guys put it all together - so KW responds by tearing them apart.

QUOTE(shawnhillegas @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 08:32 PM) is this serious? it can't be. THE SEASON IS OVER. GET OVER YOURSELF AND MOVE ON. ITS A BUSINESS AND KENNY'S JOB ISNT TO KEEP AROUND THE PEOPLE YOU LIKE BECAUSE YOURE NOSTALGIC ABOUT 2005 Then go root for MicroSoft, shawn.