Kenny Hates Prospects

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Dec 9, 2009 -> 10:02 AM) he's a M-1 fighter, those contracts are really odd, it's why people speculate if there's any shot Fedor comes to the UFC it will have to be in 2 more fights when his M-1 contract is up and all the insanity about 50/50 splits on gates etc. can be put aside. Vadim actually confirmed all that stuff too, saying that they really did want 50% of profits from events. Their reasoning was that since M-1's TV deals in certain areas of the world (specifically Russia for one) get far greater exposure, the cost was justified. Why would the UFC want to fork over half of their earnings in order to show free events to millions more people who they aren't even planning on visiting in the next few years, and people who, even if they did visit, likely wouldn't be able to support a gate large enough to turn a profit (since the numbers for non-live international PPV events are always down)? And why would they want to tie television deals to a third party that could raise the price to whatever degree it deemed necessary whenever it felt like it? It just goes to show how wrong the anti-Dana/anti-Zuffa crowd is when it comes to why Fedor isn't in the UFC. Also, and this unrelated, but the UFC keeps on getting hit hard. Carlos Condit is out of his fight vs. Semtex. That completely blows for both entertainment reasons and also for business reasons, because everyone knows Semtex's ground game is suspect, and if the UFC has to resort to a late replacement, they'll be chancing an upset that could remove Daley from the title picture. The Condit fight was great because it was not only a nice match-up, but it was relevant too. Ugh.

QUOTE (TitoMB345 @ Dec 9, 2009 -> 09:51 AM) I'm fine with it. Sell high on Carlos, since there's no guarantee he'll do anything close to 2008 again. That wouldn't exactly be selling high. Plus our #2 HR hitter would be either Rios, Teahen, Alexei, or Beckham. Not good.

QUOTE (Jenks Heat @ Dec 9, 2009 -> 09:20 AM) Milt hates the cubs, I hate the cubs......... Milt has issues but it has never involved anything illegal as far as I recall. He seems to have a demeanor away from the park that differs greatly from his baseball persona although I could be wrong. His OBP is as sexy as it gets and he can not drive in runs. Bat him leadoff and play a little left here or there. Players seem to like it on the southside and while we hear that it is great to play at Wrigley I am not inclined to believe that is true unless the price is right. Send AJ, Guillen, Reinsdorf and Williams to meet with him and go from there. Give them Carlos Torres. As was pointed out earlier, Jurassic had milder issues but he seemd to adapt to the Cell quite well. Even if KW had a major brain fart and decided to piss all his flexibility away in a Milton Bradley deal, there's no way that happens without the Cubs at least taking Linebrink off our hands. If we took on Bradley right now for Torres alone then we'd have to do something that would really, really suck, like non-tender Bobby and sign no one to replace him or, god forbid, trade Buehrle for prospects.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Dec 9, 2009 -> 09:26 AM) I am not going to tell people to stop speculating and such, because thats what this board is for, but I see about as much sense in discussing this rumor right now as I do in discussing trying to acquire Pujols. Agree. One, we can't afford his contract, and two, SP is dead last on our list of priorities, even behind the bench (we still need a backup catcher). Now if we were talking about 4 years of Haren being for sale - which it is not BTW - then it would be very different. But Halladay is just not happening.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Dec 9, 2009 -> 08:48 AM) Upton has proven he can do great things at the major league level. He's not some amatuer. He's just a guy with a world of talent, and a wooly work ethic coming off an injury. I think she makes a very good point though. You can reverse roles and say the same thing about Quentin. If the Rays wanted to get Carlos from us, obviously we would ask for a ton in return because we have him for 3 years and he's shown what he can do. OTOH, I would expect the Rays to be pretty hesitant to part with what we would ask simply because of injuries and the 2009 down year. The talent is unquestionable, the past success is unquestionable, but there still is uncertainty there. I really don't think Upton is going to be moved. He'll cost a whole lot and I'm not sure there's another team out there willing to give up fair value 3 years of Upton because of that uncertainty.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Dec 8, 2009 -> 07:31 PM) It really depends on the price. About Matsui's salary - I just don't see us paying him $4-6 million annually and him taking such an offer. He'd want at least around $8-10 million a year. The Sox have said they were working to come up with ways to add a little bit of payroll room. One of those ways might be attempting to attract Japanese sponsors through the signing of Matsui. Perhaps signing Matsui for $8M per is the same thing as signing an American for $5M per because of the added income. Just a guess.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 8, 2009 -> 07:34 PM) There's a better chance Brent Lillibridge wins the triple crown in 2010 than Milton Bradley going through a season without issues. lol

QUOTE (103 mph screwball @ Dec 8, 2009 -> 07:30 PM) That would be interesting. Wouldn't it be something if Bradley found a home with the Sox and hit .325 getting along with the clubhouse. Now, I try not to let anything on the northside cloud my opinions of the Sox, but it would be sweet if Bradley tore the cover off of the ball for the Sox while the cubs paid his salary. I know he has a lot of baggage but so did Jurassic Carl. That's like the absolute peak of his ceiling though. The floor would be him starting up some s*** after getting benched for hitting .220 with basically no power for about a month and a half, then watching as the Sox release him and eat the rest of his s***ty contract because no other team in baseball would touch him with a ten foot pole. The risk is way to high for a team with payroll constraints. My guess is the Tigers are the mystery team. They have tons of bad contracts and today's deal probably pushed Robertson, Willis, and possibly even Bonderman out of the plans.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 8, 2009 -> 07:22 PM) I really can't believe there is a White Sox fan alive that wants Milton Bradley on the White Sox. Same here. I wouldn't want him if he only cost the minimum, but throwing in that contract too? That would be suicidal.

Just a hypothetical question here... If the Sox traded Jenks for a prospect or two (taking on no added salary commitments and adding no one else to the 40-man) and then gave the roughly $7-8M they were going to commit to Jenks to Putz ($2-3M base + incentives) and Chapmann ($4-5M total in 2010 including signing bonus), would anyone be upset about that? First half bullpen: Closer: Thornton Righty setup man: Linebrink/Pena battle Lefty setup man: Chapmann/Williams competition (Chapmann would be the fav, but the Sox could opt to ease him in first) Righty specialist: Putz (ease him in to the picture, let him get up to speed) Lefty specialist: Williams/Chapmann Middle reliever: Pena/Linebrink Middle reliever: Hudson (ease Hudson in, letting him work to both lefties and righties) Long reliever: Carrasco Then in the second half the Sox could switch things around. If Pena becomes dominant, or if Putz gets back to where he had been in Seattle, and if this happens in tandem with Thornton or Williams struggling, then Thornton could go back to 8th inning duties, pushing back Chapmann. If Linebrink hits the second half swoon that he usually does, then Hudson can move up to a setup role with Linebrink basically being phased out. There are all kinds of possibilities with a pen like that because Carrasco and Williams are the only ones who don't profile as setup men or closers. What would also be great about a move like this is it would give us added insurance to our rotation in 2010, plus it provides us with a possible Hudson vs. Chapmann 5th starter battle in 2011. And if we love both pitchers and we think they'll both work as starters, it allows us to look into shopping one of our other starters during the 2010-11 offseason. Basically, we'd have 5 proven MLB starters in our rotation, 2 high-caliber SP prospects in the bullpen, plus a spot starter in Carrasco. That's 8 SP options in 2010, plus added depth for future rotations. *Edit: LOL, I just looked at my post and that's an 8-man bullpen, so that's not going to work.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Dec 8, 2009 -> 01:20 PM) He most definitely would have gotten more. Agree. How good you are or are not doesn't matter a whole lot in arbitration. That's why all kinds of decent players get non-tendered every single year, because clubs don't want to be forced into paying them more than they're worth.

Crawford for Quentin on the surface would be the worst move Kenny has ever made. The only way the Sox should consider moving Carlos is if they think he's going to be hurt for the rest of his career, and if that's the case, please deal him for somebody cheap with superstar potential who will be expected to be part of our future for the next 4-6 years, not some fast guy who is almost certainly going to be asking for $15M+ per next offseason. And if you can't get that, at least go with the best package of prospects you can find. Quentin for Crawford is just so dumb on so many levels. I mean, we can't even afford that contract for one.

Unless the Sox can dump Konerko and Linebrink in the deal, it's pretty safe to assume we're not adding Halladay's contract to the payroll.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 8, 2009 -> 11:18 AM) You know for a made up three way deal, that isn't half bad. Right, because the Rays would trade Upton, Davis, and more for Halladay. That's really, really bad.

Just saw this: Wow. Non-tender Jenks right now if you have to and offer that money to Soriano to 2 years with an option. I'd even go 3/$24M.

Nice work by Dayton Moore in deciding to spend money on a prospect instead of role players who really don't matter. Between this and the Teahen deal he's had a nice offseason so far.

QUOTE (DBAHO @ Dec 7, 2009 -> 08:02 AM) Well if Jenks was dealt, this guy would be a pretty decent replacement if the price was right; For what he would cost in talent we're probably better off just signing someone. We only have to give up a 2nd rounder to get a Type A and we're also getting Morgado's pick back too.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 6, 2009 -> 01:39 PM) He has back issues and the calf popped at the end of the year. Never mind then, you're probably right. I hope he gets it together if he stays here.

Jones' bat has really slowed down a lot over the years. He's still young enough to get himself in shape to hit .250 again with power, but I wouldn't bet on it. I'm glad he wants to start though because at least it shows dedication. Please Kenny, get a real RF.

Or maybe for the difference in salary we could just sign 2 of Coco Crisp/Yasser Gomez/Leslie Anderson and let them battle Jordan Danks and Alejandro De Aza for the lead-off spot. The main reason we would want Linebrink gone is to clear some salary space to improve the 2010-11 teams. Taking on an even more expensive bad contract probably isn't going to help us do that unless the guy we're taking on is a pretty damn good player who fills a need. If Pierre had the arm for CF I'd make the deal, but he doesn't, and the thought of a Pierre-Rios-Quentin or Quentin-Pierre-Rios outfield makes me want to puke.

QUOTE (beck72 @ Dec 6, 2009 -> 11:35 AM) Teams that have to give up 2 picks for Soriano and Valverde--teams with winning records--may pass on these guys. Their asking prices may drop big time and be looking for a job in Jan. The sox could get themselves a bargain if they wait. But I still see a trade of some sort for the bullpen. The sox have some major league talent to trade [Lillibridge, Nix, Torres] that may be appealing to a team looking to drop an expensive arm. Bobby Jenks may be expensive--prob. too expensive to trade. Yet his leaving would make the bullpen an even bigger mess. Teams only have to give up 1 pick if they want one of those guys. If the signing team finishes with a top-15 record then they give up a 1st rounder. If they finish with a bottom-15 record they give up a 2nd rounder. The supplemental first round pick that goes to the team losing the player in either case doesn't come out of anyone's pocket. I agree there will be bargains, but I think it will be more of the setup man variety. If we're looking for a closer to replace Bobby it would be best to act right now and forfeit the 2nd rounder so we can set the payroll. Then we could dump Jenks off on someone else for basically nothing if we absolutely had to, and we wouldn't end up stuck with someone we don't want simply because the other options are all gone. It seems like the Sox and Bobby are in a weird place right now. Kenny is saying he still has faith in Bobby and isn't looking to move him, but the arb situation as well as the Sox payroll situation keep coming up, and the Sox clearly aren't enamored with Jenks in the first place. Kenny has to be shopping Bobby pretty hard, and I believe there were other unnamed execs who were quoted saying he is, but Kenny is denying it and having contract negotiations with Jenks. Whatever the Sox do for their closer they appear to be pretty reluctant about doing it.

QUOTE (beck72 @ Dec 6, 2009 -> 11:28 AM) Lindstrom should still be very affordable. The key is health. If his arm is in good shape, he had numbers and stuff better than Tony Pena [and would likely cost less in terms of talent than Brandon Allen]. Lindstrom supposedly can hit the high 90's, with decent other pitches to keep hitters from sitting on his FB. With the sox pen set up the way it is, a RHP who can hit the mid to upper 90's, and have a high K rate would fit in nicely. A solid dependable bullpen arm-someone who acn work the 7th, 8th innings-- isn't likely to be found in the Rule 5 draft. It may not be Lindstrom. Yet the trade route may be the only place to find one. I think he would be a great fit for the Oakland A's or somebody like that. Teams with money to spend and no real interest in trying to contend would be a good landing place because he's still a project. The Sox are looking to win in 2010 and quite honestly we already have enough projects as it is in the bullpen. Pena is still a project, Linebrink the same in the second half, plus we have several pre-arb players of our own with MLB arms but serious control issues. The Sox sound like they may only have a few million left to spend, and they have quite a few in-house relievers that are close, so if they're going to spend a couple dimes of that 50 cents on an insurance option for the pen, then they should at least target someone who has more than one good year in the Majors (2007) on his resume and isn't coming off a season with a 1.65 WHIP. I don't care if the guy they target doesn't have Lindstrom's stuff either, just get a guy who can keep his walks down and ideally can keep his H/9 pretty well below Lindstrom's career 9.3 H/9. I don't want to see another MacDougal/Aardsma/etc. unless we're either out of it or we're giving a young guy with 3 pre-arb years left a chance.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Dec 6, 2009 -> 11:14 AM) The guy still hit .241 last year, so it's not like he can command a farm. He could command a proven closer, a top prospect, and maybe one or two lesser 'spects. Upton will be 25 next year, he's under control for 3 seasons, and he's one of the most talented players in baseball in terms of the things he is able to do physically. This is a CF whose MLB career highs in the following categories are: AVG .300, OBP .386, SLG .508, HR 24, 2B 37, BB 97, SB 44. At the age of 25 he should be expected to put up some of those numbers again, if not improve upon them, and if he puts it all together in a healthy season? Wow. His ceiling is enormous; far, far higher than any player we have on the farm. Tampa Bay has no need to move him, they're just capable of considering it because of the sheer amount of talent they have in the minor leagues. Jenks is essentially a 1-year commitment to an upper-level closer coming off a down year at a price that is very near market value. He does have value, but not a ton of it. Flowers is a very nice catching prospect, but his ceiling isn't Mike Piazza or anything, in fact the contact and defense concerns are still pretty serious with him. Offering 1-2 more lesser prospects isn't going to do it either. Maybe if we offered Jenks + 3 top prospects including Hudson we could get something done, but we'd really have to blow TB away with an offer of several players that they believe in if we want to get Upton. The other thing is, TB has such a deep system with so many young guys either already producing big at the MLB level or right on the cusp of doing it that we're not going to have the "readiness vs. ceiling" thing in our favor like may be the case with the Padres and Gonzalez. With the Padres, they need to put talented prospects out there right now and build a new core immediately if they want to contend 2 years from now. That's not the case with TB, so TB could easily go after someone else and look for 4-5 players who have some pretty sick ceilings but are a little ways away. BJ isn't going to come cheap at all, and IMO a Jenks + Flowers + 1-2 other players not named Hudson or Viciedo is a pretty cheap offer.

QUOTE (Sec101Row1 @ Dec 6, 2009 -> 10:46 AM) FoxSports is reporting the Marlins are close to trading Lindstrom. Sounds like a "Buy Low" kind of deal. His overall numbers last year - in the NL and in a much friendlier park - were worse than Linebrink's overall numbers last year, and his first half was nothing short of revolting. On top of that he's 30 next year and is about to hit that indiscriminate auto-reward system that is arbitration for relief pitchers in baseball. I agree we would be buying low - too low in fact, as our standards should be just a *little* bit higher. That said, watch Kenny trade a good prospect for this guy.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Dec 6, 2009 -> 10:05 AM) BJ Upton is not a guy you just write-off. He's a guy who if everything works out, you build around. He's got ELITE potential, even if he falls short of that he still puts up numbers in every offensive and defensive category. So, yeah i'd say he's worth a closer who we're scapegoating, and a promising catcher with 3 hits in the MLB. Not only that, but if the Rays did Jenks + Flowers for Upton they might as well change their name for the 2nd time and start calling themselves the Tampa Bay Schiavos.