Kenny Hates Prospects

Josh Fields, or anyone else on the 40-man, CAN be traded in a Rios deal. That player has to be a PTBNL though and the trade cannot be completed until Sept. 1 when the waiver deadline is over. This is how the Reds got Micah Owings last year in the Dunn deal, as a PTBNL.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Aug 7, 2009 -> 10:21 PM) Freddy is done, Colon is on the outs with the organization, and Contreras hasn't been able to find the plate for a while. And neither of those three will be in the Sox organization next year. I agree that Torres isn't that much better than Whisler, Egert, or Harrell, but that also underscores how thin our minor league pitching is at this point. Kenny has traded away A LOT of young pitching talent over the past year and a half (Richard, Poreda, Gio, DLS), and I'm not sure that further depleting that position for two months of a surgically-repaired question mark is a good idea. I agree that the Sox could potentially benefit from a guy like Wagner, but I'd rather give up a mediocre position player and eat more of Wagner's salary. I agree in that I'd rather keep Torres for depth. I don't think he'd be a deal breaker because I don't see a team wanting him all that badly, and if the Mets did want him, I'd rather substitute another prospect on more or less equal footing just to keep that depth around. I don't think it would be hard either. If I were the Mets I'd rather have Ely for example, and given this year's situation, if I were Kenny I'd rather give up Ely anyway since we wouldn't look for contributions out of him until at least 2010.

QUOTE (BlackBetsy @ Aug 7, 2009 -> 10:32 PM) If he had such 5-tool talent, he'd show it by age 28. His best season came at age 26 when he put up a solid but not great .858 OPS / 122 OPS+ for a corner outfielder. He's healthy now and there's no reason to believe that he's going to be much better than he is now and that he tops out about where his age 26 season was. That's a solid LF er, but not a 12 million dollar per year guy when you have other players on your team (Q, Beckham, Alexi, Jenks) that you are going to have to start to pay arbitration dollars to or try to lock up long term over the next 6 years. Here are the outfielders 28 or younger who are performing better than Rios right now from an OPS standpoint: Braun, Upton, Kemp, Ethier, Choo, Swisher, Adam Jones, Victorino, Crawford, Granderson, Pence, Markakis, Melky Cabrera, Cody Ross, McLouth, Franklin Gutierrez, Ben Francisco, Grady Sizemore, Corey Hart, Dexter Fowler (who?), Michael Bourn, Jacoby Ellsbury, and Denard Span. $12 million a year for the 24th best outfielder in the league 28 and under? And there's only 33 OF that are qualifiers and fit the age 28 and under category. Change the criteria to ages 25 to 31 - a player's prime - and Rios is 33 out of 38 among OF qualifiers. Change the criteria to age 28 through 34 (the length of his contract), and he's 24th out of 25. The only guy lower on the list is Vernon Wells. Rios is a 5-tool talent and he HAS shown it. In 2007 he hit .297 (average) 24 HR, .498 SLG in a pitchers park (power), stole 17 bases with just for CS for a team that isn't known for running (run), and he can play D and throw on top of it. Your list is deceptive because you're talking about his down year and a lot of the players you're mentioning are not nearly as talented all-around as Rios is. Span? Bourn? Francisco? Hart? Gutierrez? McLouth? Ross? Melky? Swisher for God sakes? I mean come on. He's a CF in RF and has more ability than any of those guys. Yes, the Uptons are better, yes Pence is a better player, so is Sizemore and possibly Fowler in the future. Ellsbury is a different kind of hitter, but very very good as well. You need to crawl out of the OPS bubble and understand that just because a player isn't producing RIGHT NOW it doesn't mean he won't produce in the future. Your list would have been like comparing Eric Byrnes in 2007 with CQ in 2007 and using it as a reason to say Byrnes is better. Rios already has shown what he can do in 2007 and he isn't so full of flaws that we can't expect anything better. He can take walks, he's aggressive, and his K rate isn't exactly Fields-like or anything. He actually makes a lot of contact. If the Sox claim him they think he's going to turn it around, and I definitely trust their judgement in that case.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 7, 2009 -> 10:24 PM) 1.5 years ago the league thought highly enough of this guy for a Lincecum/Rios swap to sound fair for both sides. At the time I thought SF should have made that deal. Lincecum is unbelievable but I still think his elbow is going to snap eventually.

QUOTE (CryptviLL @ Aug 7, 2009 -> 10:18 PM) I think that is key, i think hell thrive here in us cell around our lineup Totally. Imagine if someone had said last year that we'd essentially make this trade: Richard + Poreda + DCarter + Russell for Peavy + Rios No one would have believed that. You can't even do that in video game and yet, in real life, it's actually a possibility. I could see the Jays owners going up to Ricciardi and telling him just to dump Rios since they need salary relief and failed to deal Halladay. If that happens, somebody needs to put Kenny's ass on a wanted poster because that guy is just running around committing armed robbery.

QUOTE (BlackBetsy @ Aug 7, 2009 -> 10:03 PM) No, he's 28 right now, not a kid. We'd be paying him $12.5 million a year when he's 34 years old. Players like him do not peak through 34. Likely, he's already had his peak with an .860 OPS. It would be different if he was 25 years old and struggling through his fourth year in the league. He's not. He should be in his prime and the last two years he's been a sub-800 OPS player. Players like him? First off, there aren't just a lot of "players like him" around with comparable packages of talent. Secondly, you're saying he had his peak at 26? Yeah, going to have to dispute that one and say there's ample time for improvement. Some players don't hit their prime until later. And lastly, if the Sox put in this claim they've looked at him and have seen things they think they can fix. He has power potential and would be moving from a dome to grass within a hitters park plus is a natural CF so it's not like we're talking about some corner OF here. He only plays RF because the Jays have Wells who USED to be awesome in CF, and apparently the Jays are keeping Wells there to justify his contract.

QUOTE (G&T @ Aug 7, 2009 -> 09:45 PM) Except for the contract, which in this economy is probably more than he's worth. That said, this is a move that makes sense for this team. At this point in time I agree, but he has the potential to become an $18-20M type of player as a CF. He's not doing it now obviously so he's considered overpaid, but this kid has tons of talent and we'd be getting him through his prime. You always hear about 5-tool players and everything, well Rios is the real deal. He's young enough to where he could still figure it all out, and the change of scenery can't hurt. Even if he never reaches his full potential though, he's capable of being a GG-caliber CF and hitting above average for a CF, which would make his contract market value or below.

YEEEESSSSSSSSSSS! Now let's get him and let's do it for NOTHING!!! I've had a man crush on Rios for a very long time. He's one o my favorite players to watch and I think he's going to turn it around. If the Sox make this move, and I've said this before, but I see a lot of possible parallels to the Dye signing out of Oakland. We'd be getting an extremely talented player for far, far less than he's worth and I think like Dye he'll blossom here. Two different types of players, but Rios I think can seriously do some damage in the future in the right situation.

QUOTE (chunk23 @ Aug 7, 2009 -> 09:17 PM) It could be a choice for CF between "overpaying" Rios, or hoping to land Figgins as a FA but having to give up a draft pick for him. I'd rather go with Rios. If the choice was Figgins vs. Rios another plus for Rios is that if something happens where Figgins loses speed, Figgins then loses a ton of value. Rios has power potential that should only increase in the Cell, so I think he'd be a better longterm investment. The fact that Rios plays a better CF helps too. I really hope we get this claim and the Jays dump Rios on us for nothing. I'd be thrilled.

So if he didn't make it to the NL, who besides us is left? Not SEA, not BOS, not CLE, highly doubtful it's the Twins or A's, Rangers can't take on salary... Angels SOX Royals Yankees Rays Orioles Tigers Doesn't make sense that the Rays would be able to take that salary on with Burrell's contract. O's and Royals don't make sense. Tigers still have a lot of salary commitments past 2009. Us and the Yankees have to be the favorites here, but can't discount the Angels' ability to acquire CF'ers out of nowhere.

QUOTE (AWhiteSoxinNJ @ Aug 7, 2009 -> 08:07 PM) Wagner on being a cancer: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/16/sports/b...amp;oref=slogin http://www.clubhousecancer.com/clubhouse_cancers/ Did Wagner really say anything all that bad? Sounded to me like he had some reasonable complaints. I'm not just referring to this instance, but it is just funny in general how pushy, parasitic media spin-doctors get to annoy the f*** out of players seemingly at their every whim and then as soon as a player breaks the typical bulls*** PC attitude he ends up getting roasted in the press. Newsflash: the majority of the media types these days are reactionary scum looking for headlines. Why should Wagner be answering questions about why his team lost a game he didn't even play in? Doesn't make a lot of sense because no matter what he says he'll draw criticism for either being honest and voicing a concern, or for speaking for someone else on a topic that doesn't concern him, or for sidestepping a question. CQ doesn't speak to the media very often, and if CQ came right out and told a whole bunch of press people to f*** off and suck his dick, I wouldn't care and would back him just as much as always. PS it's funny Wagner gets criticism from Philly fans and the Philly media. What about the wife beater over there? Great example for the children, that Brett Meyers...

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 7, 2009 -> 08:02 PM) Well, if we did claim Rios, Kenny has to be ready to walk away. My guess is Ricciardi understands the situation we're in going forward, understands KW's motivation, and will try and ask for Jordan Danks. Personally, I would let them have Jordan if that is what it takes....but I don't know what the politics are behind that and the promises that may have been made behind the scenes... Do we think KW has the patience to call Ricciardi's bluff? Kenny doesn't need patience. He has ALL the leverage here. If the Sox got the claim, and Jays ownership wants that salary off the books ASAP, then Ricciardi is the one who has to break. Otherwise, Kenny can just go into the offseason with lots of payroll flexibility and be an immediate target for any team forced to dump a good player because of payroll concerns. Edit: Kenny should make his best (very minimal) offer right out of the gate and let the Jays mull it over. If the Jays want more, Kenny can just walk away. Now that Rios' contract has been claimed it will be interesting to see if ownership gets involved and forces Ricciardi's hand regardless of how he feels about the talent package offered in return.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Aug 7, 2009 -> 07:21 PM) Wait, since when is a prospect being a potentially solid number # 2 anything less than great? There are select few aces in this game, Hudson isn’t quite going to get there, but he’s going to be a damn good pitcher if everything works itself out. Pitchers who are #2/#3 starters in the Bigs get called "aces" all the time anyway. Even being a #3/#4 in the Majors is very, very good - especially when you're talking about a young pitcher you can control for 6 years at an average cost of about 25% or less of actual market value.

NTC shouldn't be a problem for Rios though, I mean we're talking about the Blue Jays here. He gets to go to a contender and have CF all to himself! Vs. RHP DH Thome/CQ/Dye LF CQ/Pods CF Pods/Rios RF Dye/Rios Vs. LHP DH CQ LF Pods CF Rios RF Dye Rios plays all the time vs. lefties, then gives Pods, Dye, and CQ days off against tough matchups, also takes over CF no matter what when we play in Comerica Lineup vs. LHP LF Podsednik 3B Beckham RF Dye 1B Konerko DH Quentin C Pierzynski CF Rios SS Ramirez 2B Getz Speed, speed, speed....

PLEASE BE TRUE PLEASE BE TRUE PLEASE BE TRUE PLEASE BE TRUE PLEASE BE TRUE PLEASE BE TRUE PLEASE BE TRUE PLEASE BE TRUE PLEASE BE TRUE PLEASE BE TRUE PLEASE BE TRUE PLEASE BE TRUE

QUOTE (WCSox @ Aug 7, 2009 -> 06:53 PM) I agree that Torres left a lot of pitches up in his one outing and got lucky. That said, it speaks volumes that the only other pitching prospect that they could bring up here is Hudson, who isn't even ready yet. Torres may not be all that, but we have very few minor league options right now with Richard and Poreda gone. I don't deal him I agree mostly and I also want to say that I was very impressed with Torres as it appears he has the mental capacity to get the most out of what he has. But I do disagree with our lack of other options: we've got Whisler, Egbert, Harrell, Freddy, Count, and Colon for 5th starter duties even if you discount Hudson. And while none of those names can be expected to come in and light the world on fire right now, they're all in Torres' league IMO. I think Harrell has the stuff but control and pitch count will be an issue; Freddy doesn't need a whole lot given his repertoire of offspeed stuff; Colon and Count can at least keep us in fairly high-scoring affairs for 5 innings; Egbert and Whisler might be serviceable too for a few innings here and there. I wouldn't actually say Torres is necessarily a better bet to have success his next time out than any of those guys so in that respect I'd have no problem with it. Each one of those guys could come in, throw a quality start, then give up 8ER in 2IP the next time out and I wouldn't be surprised.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 7, 2009 -> 06:48 PM) I can't see the Tigers having the money to claim him. Maggs might be coming off the books if they can limit his PA. Sheff is also off the books after this year. Washburn, Polanco, Lyon come off too. However, Maggs is no guarantee and they still have to pay Dontrelle, Robertson, and Bonderman next year. Guillen is on the books until 2011. The payroll is still way up there, but their owner really wants to win and has authorized some pretty big expenditures.

On June 4th Wagner's ERA was 0.36. So he got hurt, had a few bad games, then had a stretch of dominance, then disappeared for surgery. Here's his gamelog: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/...p&year=2008

QUOTE (AWhiteSoxinNJ @ Aug 7, 2009 -> 06:40 PM) The fact that the report came out tells me it not the White Sox. Right, so no one working for or close to the Mets could have leaked info... If this came from anywhere it probably came from the Mets because they're the ones deciding whether to trade him and for what price. You're also clueless if you believe the Sox (or any playoff contender in need of a lefty for that matter) are not going to send scouts to a couple of his minor league games to watch him throw with the reasoning that somewhere along the line someone said he's a bad teammate.

QUOTE (AWhiteSoxinNJ @ Aug 7, 2009 -> 06:26 PM) Billy Wagner was the #1 reason why the Mets melted down the stretch last season. The White Sox are NOT...repeat NOT getting Wagner. WOW A guy who last pitched on August 2 of last year was the reason the Mets couldn't win for 2 months afterwards??? And how do you know the Sox aren't the AL contender looking at him? Kenny has gone after him before and now he needs another lefty unless he wants to plan on going into the playoffs with Randy Williams in such an important role. Thornton is NOT suited for situational duty because the Sox need him for regular setup work.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Aug 7, 2009 -> 06:02 PM) Given that Torres may be our #5 next year and that we're definitely going to need him this month (and possibly longer) this season, there's no way that I trade him two months of a guy who just had surgery on his pitching arm. I don't see why they'd want Torres anyway when they could ask for much, much better prospects while still allowing us to keep all of our important pieces. Torres' confidence was impressive but the stuff wasn't there to reliably pitch in this ballpark, and even though he had a great outing for us, Lance Broadway has done the same. Torres got away with a lot of good pitches to hit and if he had been on the mound for another team and it was instead the Sox who got shut down I doubt he'd get so much credit. That said, if they did want Torres it would be crazy not to deal him. After Peavy is here we have one spot for Count/Freddy/Colon/Hudson/Whisler/Egbert/Harrell/Cassel, etc. and then a couple other starts from the 5th slot until then. Losing Torres shouldn't hurt us at all.

QUOTE (AWhiteSoxinNJ @ Aug 7, 2009 -> 05:55 PM) That's great you post stats. The thing about the past is that, it happen in the past. Stats that happen 5-10 years ago don't apply to today. Look at John Smoltz, a first ballot hall of famer just kicked to the curb. But he has great stats, doesn't mean s*** today now does it? You must be a bad argument machine. I posted his numbers in the first place because you so wrongly stated that he wasn't getting anyone out prior to getting hurt. The numbers show he was having another excellent year in an excellent career. Because you realized you couldn't dispute the numbers you then resorted to accusations about the player. It doesn't matter what you heard or think you heard. Whoever those players were, if they did say something negative, they're not on the Sox (unless you're going to claim you've been hanging out with Jim Thome and Jimmy doesn't like him). And either way, none of that matters. He can be a humongous asshole but if he came here and helped us win another title then I really don't care at all. He would get bought out after the season and I highly doubt 2-3 months tops is going to be enough for anyone to lower the morale of 24 other players in a drive for a pennant. As far as what he is capable of now, the column that said there was an AL club trying to get him also said he was hitting 94 on the gun. His velocity is there and so far his control has been there as well. A veteran lefty who knows how to pitch and can locate his 94mph fastball is going to get people out. If he's healthy, he is an improvement over Randy Williams and a secondary lefty option in our bullpen. Are you going to try to argue that too?

QUOTE (Flash Tizzle @ Aug 7, 2009 -> 05:25 PM) Oh, now Cooper is our hitting coach too? Walk successfully identifies the problems that Coop fixes.

QUOTE (South Side Fireworks Man @ Aug 7, 2009 -> 05:23 PM) Rios would fit in nicely. For the rest of this season Ozzie could work Rios in by DHing Quentin on some days and have Pods LF, Rios CF, and Dye RF. Other days he can rest Pods and have an OF of Quentin, Rios and Dye. Still other days he can sit Dye or DH him and have Q in LF, Pods in CF and Rios in RF. Still other days Rios can sit on the bench in place of Wise and come in as a defensive replacement when Buerhle has another perfect game going. Detroit better hope we didn't win this claim. And BTW can you imagine all the athleticism in a future OF comprised of Rios, D2, and Mitchell? Jesus Christ... Balls just wouldn't hit the ground out there.

I'd love to see what Coop could do with Rios. Put him in this ballpark and watch him take off.