chw42

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 02:57 PM) If Torres had trade value, he would have almost certainly been dealt a long time ago. 27 year old pitchers who have mediocre control and less than spectacular stuff have little to no trade value whatsoever. He really doesn't offer anything unique or exciting, and his ceiling is more or less that of a 5th starter or long reliever in the major leagues. He offers little long-term value to any major league club, but does offer depth to the White Sox. Hey, he sounds like a younger version of Joe Saunders!

Fukudome is projected to hit with a .346 wOBA for the rest of the year by ZiPS. That .364 OBP would look great in the leadoff or two hole.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 02:44 PM) This could be a thing: Ken_Rosenthal Attention, Fukudome shoppers: Source says #Cubs would pay part of $4M-plus left this year and "quite a bit" of $13.5M salary next year. #MLB 3 minutes ago via web Would you trade for him if the Cubs would pay $7 million of his contract next year and $2 million of it this year? I know I would definitely consider it.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 02:47 PM) Hmm. Sure you could do that but we're strapped for cash and I'd hate to invest millions in a closer when we could have one just as effective for peanuts. We've been giving money to the closer for the past two years. I think we can afford to invest some money in Putz. Plus, if you get to the ALCS somehow with Dunn, you make some nice revenue and the payroll will be a little more flexible next year.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 02:46 PM) http://www.minorleaguesplits.com/ Type in any player's name, or look through teams' rosters using the team names below. On any player page, click "mle," and it will adjust everything from that players current production to the majors. It's obviously not an exact science (which is best seen in Buck Coats' line, where he has an equivalent overall line of .274/.333/.374/.707 with 2 HR on the year, yet his splits suggest he would have 1 HR against LHP and 2 HR against RHP with a .728 OPS against both), but it gives a pretty good idea of what a player would do. Hudson's MLE FIP is 4.51, for example, so it should be reasonably expected that he will pitch fairly well for the remainder of the season. Wasn't Hudson's expected Major League FIP about 3.60 last season?

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 02:45 PM) I assumed he was being groomed to eventually be our closer. If he goes who closes for us next year? You take that money you were going to give to Jenks and you give it to Putz.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 02:36 PM) That pen takes a huge nose dive after we lose him and Liney, Pena, and Threets need to throw more innings. Sergio's recent contribution to this bullpen = meh. This bullpen thrives because of Putz and Thornton. As long as those two are here, it's fine. If Jenks comes back to form like I think he will, you won't even notice Santos missing a majority of the time. We've been too spoiled by our bullpen thus far.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 02:38 PM) Steve Stone called out Lou Piniella on June 9th. From June 10th through today, Colvin has started 30 games and has played in 39 overall. His line... .238/.293/.485/.777, 9 HR, 37 K in 140 plate appearances Colvin has been far from a star since that point in time. You just knew that Colvin's stats were going to dip when he got full playing time. He can't hit lefties and his low OBP doesn't make sense in the leadoff spot. You'd rather hit Castro there and move Colvin down to 6th or 7th to split up that mess of right handed hitters in the middle of their lineup.

I am also interested.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 10:12 AM) I think Hawk has started rubbing off on him. Steve still thinks pitcher wins are important and have predictive value. In Garcia's case, they really don't.

The Sox have a huge chip in Santos if they can jump into this deal. With that bullpen that Arizona has, Santos would be very valuable to them. Out of Santos, Beckham, and Hudson, Sergio is by far the most expendable because of our bullpen depth.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jul 25, 2010 -> 10:25 PM) That would mean the Sox have plus fielders at 5 positions (Omar, Alexei, Rios, AJ, Pierre), 2 above average ones (Gordon, Paulie), and 2 bad one/great ones depending on day(Quentin/Some Pitchers vs. Jones/Buehrle-Santos) Gordon's actually above average at 2B. And don't crown Omar just yet. He's been very average at 3B this year according to both Plus/Minus and UZR. I think we think he's good because we've seen such bad defense from Teahen.

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 01:25 PM) Zero potential eh? allllllllrighty then... And he's 29 actually. His FIP has constantly been around 4.6-4.8. He's not a good pitcher and he really doesn't have much room to improve.

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 01:18 PM) I think I am the only person who likes this deal for the Dbacks. To me at least, Joe Saunders is a pretty decent #3 pitcher, with #2 potential. I doubt he ever reaches the ace level of Haren, but the Dbacks also pick up 3 prospects, one of Skaggs who is a pretty legit prospect, and they shave a LOT of money off their payroll too. I think the Dbacks could have gotten more, since the reports said Haren would be very hard to get, but I still like this trade for the Dbacks. Saunders moving to the NL West will help him get back on his feet. Saunders has zero potential. He's 30 and has been a mediocre pitcher throughout his Major League career. 2008 was an anomaly, just look at 2009 and 2010 to find that out.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 12:43 PM) Right, but our two best offensive players were injured for most of the year in 2004, and I really think that's impossible to overlook. As for the "90 million plus payroll should get you more than 79 wins" comment, I agree with the literal obviously, but the spirit of it really is "not making the playoffs is disappointing with that payroll", because I sincerely doubt that 79 vs. 85 wins matters much to you in that scenario. Bear in mind that since the beginning of the 06 season just 18/47 teams with a 90 million+ payroll (38.3%) have made the playoffs, so it's not as if it's realistic to count on making the playoffs even half the time with a payroll in that class. We would have been in the division race with 85 wins last year, so it probably does matter. It's contextual. Usually, you should be better than a .500 team with a $95 million tab.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 12:14 PM) You just said given the talent, money and therein implied expectations, and then you cite two guys that had "career years"... If Frank and Mags are healthy for even most of the year, we probably win that division. I just don't know how you can put 2004 on Ozzie, but to each his own. Not saying they weren't talented, but they definitely had very good years that season. That 04 Sox team only scored 3 less runs than the 06 Sox team and Kenny made some very good moves to help the pitching staff at the deadline. They tried, they just didn't get there.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 11:57 AM) In 2004, when the team payroll was $65 million (15th of 30 teams in MLB), we lost Ordonez for 2/3rds of the season, and Frank Thomas only played 75 games. I'm sorry...but winning 83 games was a freaking miracle in retrospect. In 2006, winning 90 games put us short, but I'm not sure I'd consider it a categorical disappointment. In 2009, our payroll was 12th in MLB, fwiw. You're supposed to win more than 79 games with a $90 something million payroll. That 04 team still had an incredible offense without Maggs and Frank. Rowand had a near career year, as did Uribe. Along with Freddy in that pitching staff, they should have been better than an 83 win team.

Santos + Viciedo + Holmberg/Rodriguez? I think Santos would make a good guy to build this package around. I don't think they'd have much of a use for Flowers. Montero's going to be a very good offensive catcher for years to come.

QUOTE (chisox2334 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 11:48 AM) from jason stark: http://espn.go.com/mlb/notebook/_/id/53949...-trade-deadline three team deal arz, wash and chisox Who would we send to AZ? We don't have many good arms in the minors.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 11:13 AM) Which is no different from what Detroit has done, but they've spent even MORE money than the White Sox since 2006...significantly more. The difference being they lost in the World Series and also being edged out by Minnesota in Game 163. Minnesota has just had a better organizational philosophy over that entire time, and they've stayed true to it. Unfortunately, as with the Oakland A's and Atlanta Braves, that system only gets them so far before they run into a brick wall. And I wouldn't even say the 2006 team underachieved, I just think the wear and tear of all those pitches came down hard on the starting rotation and that 2005 team overachieved to such a degree that it was impossible to sustain that level of success...combined with Minnesota and Detroit both getting good quickly and rebounding. You can cite 10-12 teams every season that overspend and get poor results, and the White Sox probably wouldn't come up as one of the worst offenders for any season except for 2007. We only have to look miles to the north for a team in a much more dire financial position. And the Angels were basically gift-wrapped the AL West for most of this decade as the M's teams of the early 00's fell apart/got old, and the A's went through a series of financial, stadium and personnel issues...then you have Texas, which always had the hitting but not enough pitching. At least there's been quite a bit of competition between the White Sox, Twins, Indians and Tigers for much of this decade. The same can't be said of the AL West, and that's why all of those Angels teams since 2002 came up short. Comparing our situation to the Tigers and the AL West doesn't say much about this team constantly underachieving. Underachieving was this team's forte from 2001-2004 and then from 2006-2009. The team did underachieve in 2006. That team was built to win 95+ games. They wet the bed, they had a near double digit lead on Minnesota in July. You're not supposed to lose the division by 6 games when that happens. The problem with this organization is that people make way too many excuses. Citing that this organization used to be bad isn't an excuse for the current one. When you win a World Series and you raise your payroll towards the top of the league, you are expected to win on a consistent basis and win division championships, if not world championships. Kenny seems to have a similar type of killer instinct, but the thing is, the true potential of these past teams is not coming out.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 11:25 AM) And I want to say that I would not have traded Santos, Hudson and Sale for Haren and his contract, which isn't a bad contract in any sense of the imagination but is still pricey. * I know we can't trade Sale for a year, but I'm pointing out the fact that Sale is the guy in our system most similar to Skaggs (completely different pitchers, but in terms of high-upside guys). I should also state that I think the above package might be a little better than the Angels package, but it really depends on how much you value a proven commodity like Joe Saunders. That package is a lot better than what the Angels gave up. Hudson projects to be about the same pitcher as Saunders this year and he has room to improve. Sale is kind of similar to Skaggs, but Santos is a lot better than Rodriguez. In fact, I think the advantages that the Sox prospects overshadow the fact that the Angels also gave up an extra guy in Corbin.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 11:18 AM) The Diamondbacks did get a few years of elite pitching out of Haren, so lets not act like they didn't get his production for a period of time. And Haren also was cheaper at the time they acquired him which meant they had to give up a decent amount. But those guys happen to be prospects who panned out (Gonzalez and Anderson). But both of those were very, very established prospects. None of the guys they got back for Haren have anywhere near the sparkle of Carter, Gonzalez, and Anderson. And I'm not saying the Diamondbacks didn't get much from Haren from a performance standpoint, they did. But just because he's had one bad year doesn't mean he's regressing. His velocity is still there and it hasn't changed much from last year, the home runs are the only thing that's costing him this year. Even then, those might be the result of the park since his xFIP is at 3.40, only about .3 runs higher than it was last year.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 10:56 AM) Well the Angels paid a very significant price to get Haren. Saunders, despite his struggles this year, is a legitimate big league pitcher who has had a ton of success in the AL and on top of that they gave up 2 very good prospects and other pieces. It's nowhere near significant IMO. Saunders is a mediocre pitcher, always has been. He was fortunate in 2008, a lucky first half gave him some pretty numbers. But now you've seen him exposed these past two years. He's a solid 4th or 5th starter on most teams. Plus, for a guy who is a groundball pitchers, he sure gives up a lot of home runs. They didn't even give up anyone in their top 10 other than the PTBNL. They basically got Haren for two good prospects, a mediocre one, and a mediocre pitcher who is a non-tender candidate next year. He's 30, set to make $6 or $7 million next year with absolutely zero upside. This is one of the worst deals I've ever seen for such an established pitcher. Plus, considering what they gave up for Haren, this is just ridiculous. Carlos Gonzalez and Brett Anderson are future all-stars while Chris Carter projects to be at least a solid Major League bat. To get back nothing close to the caliber of those players is just unacceptable.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 08:06 AM) The first six years that KW was general manager he did not post a losing record. As for Ozzie, when you put up a .530 managerial record over 1100 games you are doing something right. Other than 2005 and maybe 2008, this team has UNDERACHIEVED every single year that he has been the manager given the amount of money we've put into the team and the talent that was on it. When you've had $95-$110 million payrolls these past 5 years, you expect to win every year. Kenny's right, 2007 and 2009 were embarrassments.

QUOTE (Chet Kincaid @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 09:15 AM) Haren- Angels (Who the hell saw that coming?) Oswalt- Cardinals Lilly- Twins Greinke- Yankees in a deal for Joba, Montero, others. If they deal Greinke to the hated Yanks, Royals fans will burn Kaufmann Stadium down Laroche Bullpen arm or bench player - White Sox Aramis Ramirez - Tigers Derrick Lee - Rangers Fixed Best fix I've ever seen.