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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 23, 2013 -> 05:14 PM) If you are totally rebuilding and won't be in contention for several years, Sale would have to be shopped. Pitching 3,4, or 5 or more years in games that are meaningless doesn't serve any purpose. I don't see us competing with the Tigers or with other wild card contenders with just a few minor tweaks. Our biggest need is a middle of the order bat. PK is good as done, Dunn is too unreliable, Rios cannot be a number 3 hitter for a playoff team. Hawkins has a chance to be one, but he's too far away and is far from being a share thing. Taking a quick look at the FA list for next season, Unless we sign Cano, we will still need players to build our offense around.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 23, 2013 -> 04:53 PM) If Mike Trout is available yes. If not, no. He won't be. But if the Cardinals come calling for someone to fill in for Jaime Garcia, and is willing to offer Taveras, Kolten Wong and two pitching prospects for Sale and maybe Alexei, I would have a hard time saying no. This would be a similar deal to the Rays/Royals trade this off season.

QUOTE (Jake @ Jun 23, 2013 -> 04:38 PM) No. Our goal is to be good as soon as possible and as long as possible. Almost any reasonable offer for Sale would undermine both of these goals. Agree with the first part, but I don't think Sale will help us with the second condition. He has already had two minor throwing shoulder/elbow hiccups the past two years. And I quote the unpopular Keith Law "with the way he throws, his shoulder is on buying time." I have a hard time time seeing him healthy/effective in 3 years. To go along with that, if we get a middle of the order bat for him, it will actually let us be good for as long as possible. Hitters are more reliable to stay healthy than pitchers, especially Sale.

This will not be a popular topic for most people, as Sale is the closest to being untouchable on this team. But I always like to go against the popular ideas. If we do fall out of contention by the trade deadline, would you consider offers for Sale? Please elaborate rather than shooting the idea down. Here's why I would consider - Durability. The tall, lanky frame, along with his delivery has always been a concern for injury. I am not confident that he will be healthy and effective two years down the road. He is one of the top 5 starters in AL currently. I expect him to be so for the next year or two. But if we go into rebuilding mode, we won't be competing for a few years. Sale may not be the same pitcher when we are ready to compete again. - Trade value. He will probably be at his peak value at the trade deadline, 24 year old ace recently signed for a long term team friendly contract, and having another hell of a season. He is still relatively healthy. We will be able to net a haul for Sale that will fill several different areas of need and continue to rebuild our farm. - Possibility of trading for an impact, middle of the order bat. The only offers I would consider are ones include a potential middle of the order bat who's close to major league ready. We have had success developing pitchers in recent years, but we struck out more than Adam Dunn did when it comes to hitting prospects. If we can net a middle of the order bat, with a number 2/3 starter prospect, along with a position player with potential to be a everyday regular, I think it will be best for the team long term. - Update: we just lost a frustrating one to the Royals! Reasons to go against it - While long term health is a serious concern, in the event that he actually stays healthy for the next 5-10 years, he will lock up the number 1 starter spot for this team. This is the bet we are taking. - Sale is already proven, prospects are always a risk. - We might be missing a true ace once we are ready to compete again. - Not a popular move for the faithfuls. If attendance is bad right now, it will turn for the worse if we trade Sale. It will be a shot to the fan's face to trade your most exciting player on the team who is only 24 right now, who is also locked up for the next 6-7 years. Conclusion I absolutely love Sale on this team, it will be hard for anyone to let him go. But if I am a betting man, I wouldn't bet on him staying healthy in a few years. He will be at his highest value this summer. Whether we trade him or not, it's a risk we are taking. If we have the potential to address the biggest need of this organization, and rebuild our farm to make a run once the Tigers' time runs out, it's a risk I can take.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 22, 2013 -> 08:45 PM) This is his 2nd "40 days in the desert/completely lost" period of the season. Failing miserably twice, he's no longer going to get the benefit of the doubt based on how he performed in 2012. Everyone knew a high school kid in the Carolina League was a huge risk, it's just that his results last year were so surprising they pushed him too hard. Striking out 60% of the time, that's too much to overcome psychologically. The mental part of the game is overwhelming him now. That stretch of homers probably made him so overconfident, when all he was doing was masking his swing plane flaws by homering his way through the negative results, but without any kind of consistency. Just streaking up and down, like Mitchell did last season. I wouldn't be as hard on you if you didn't feel strongly against the notion just last week. I brought up the Mitchell/Walker comparison because we've been down this road, rushing a raw athlete up a level before he's ready for the pitching is a risk to his development (of course people are still fairly optimistic about Walker because he WAS having a nice June).

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 22, 2013 -> 05:38 PM) http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?g...ox&sid=milb http://www.milb.com/scoreboard/index.jsp?s...mp;ymd=20130622 Hawkins down to .192 from a season high of .229. 3/37 with 22 strikeouts during that stretch. Still has a season OPS of 767, amazingly. It's getting close to time to pull the plug and send him down to Kanny so he can play together with Anderson, Micah Johnson and Barnum. That would be my play. About 10 days ago, I was against moving Hawkins down, but enough is enough. They might think about putting Micah Johnson in the OF and sending him to Winston-Salem, too. If I'm Buddy Bell though, I stick all four of those guys together and let them win a second half championship in the SAL and learn how to play AND WIN together, as well as learning how to play the game the right way. You need to be flamed for such irrational suggestion. Because you are panicking, and If he fixes himself mechanically, he'll dominate anywhere. If he is having the same issues, he's going to struggle almost everywhere.

4 walks in 2 games. I think the Zews of Walks is pretty fitting.

QUOTE (oldsox @ Jun 21, 2013 -> 06:35 AM) Since the Sox need catching, there is a AAA catcher available who is hitting about .330. Can't remember his name. Fegley?? I hear he is available because his current parent team won't bring him up. Freegley*

He won't be a tougher sign than Rodriguez, but Engel is a toolsy outfielder, ranked pretty high on the BA draft board(~150). He was perceived as a 4 or 5th round talent. So it depends if he fell due to signability issue or his draft stock just fell.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jun 17, 2013 -> 12:01 PM) Why? Are you saying the amount of overhead you noted is the remaining pool (assuming Freudenberg is slot) TOTAL underneath the pool limit? There might be other signings from rounds 11-40 that signed for over slot, we just don't know yet. But the signing of Matt Ball probably took away the $100K we have left after the Michalczewski signing. Which makes the signing of Rodriguez impossible. We can still sign Engel if we want to go up to 5% over pool limit, and pay the 75% tax (assuming the rest of the round 11-40 signings only signed for $100K or less).

On the contrast, even if the perceived level of pitching is roughly the same in Low A, a demotion might actually fuel a fire under him and encourage him to work harder to move back up. A demotion could also be a change of scenery and a fresh start that he needed. Also, he might have a better chemistry and he can work better with the hitting coach in Kanny, which could be a possibility given he performed quite well in his short stint in Kanny last year.

QUOTE (danman31 @ Jun 16, 2013 -> 03:26 PM) I agree that the level has nothing to do with it, but if being demoted is such a huge blow emotionally he probably isn't cut out for MLB anyway. Exactly the point I wanted to make a few days ago. If he doesn't have the mental make up to handle adversity such as a demotion when he's striking out at a historical rate, he will not be able to make it in the majors. And it isn't a case where he is play well, or just struggling minorly, and the org sends him down in a surprise move. He is struggling badly, and he knows it. Such a move, if it does occur, is only to help him. It's not that they are pushing him down in favor of a better player.

QUOTE (Springfield SoxFan @ Jun 16, 2013 -> 01:27 PM) Does the new CBA still allow a team to pay for college costs for high school signees? If so does that count against a teams bonus allotment? Yes, and no it will not count against the pool value. I believe Michalczewki's contract has the future tuition stipulation as well.

QUOTE (danman31 @ Jun 15, 2013 -> 10:06 PM) They do that on a semi-regular basis. Obviously if they liked the player in the first place there's a good chance they still like him a few years later. The Sox have almost $800k for those players. If Michalczewski and Freudenberg signed for slot - I think they probably signed for more than slot - the Sox would have $420k for overslot players outside the top 10 rounds. The $420k is the combined amount underslot the bonuses for the eight players that we know the bonuses for. So the Sox have those numbers plus the slot bonuses for Michalczewski and Freudenberg as far as we know. Either way, I doubt $300-400k is enough for Rodriguez. Maybe Engel bites for that much, but honestly, he doesn't interest me at all. What I meant was the Sox have savings of $420K they can sign over the slot value for the rest of their picks. You can't really factor in Freudenberg's slot money when considering how much slot value savings we are going to have, he will at least sign for slot value, and if he doesn't sign, the Sox will lose the slot value. On a side note, this only goes to show you how hard it is to sign high potential high school players that aren't drafted in the first two rounds in this new system. You can sign several picks under slot in the first 10 rounds, but in reality, you will only have enough to sign one or maybe two high impact high school players past round 10. We only drafted 7 high school players this year, and it looks like we will come away with only 4.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 15, 2013 -> 06:57 PM) Their pool number is $5,301,600. 5% of that is $265,080. As long as they stay under 5,566,580, they don't hit the 5% threshold and get taxed. http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2013/6/6/44016...pel-colin-moran I think you might be thinking of the amount that a team can go over when signing picks from rounds 11-40 without counting against the pool money.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 15, 2013 -> 09:22 AM) Fixed. If the Sox decided, they could add about another $260k in bonuses without going over the tax number, but I really doubt they will do so. Correct me if I am wrong, but the $260k (or 5% of the Sox pool value) will get taxed 75%, which is about 200K, but they don't have to give up a pick within 5%. If they don't want to get any extra tax, I don't think they can sign a guy like Engel, let alone Rodriguez.

Lowry's signing was for $400,000, can someone please update? So the Sox have about $420K to play with right now, that's not including the Trey Michalczewski and Matt Ball signing. It will be hard to sign all of those two, Octavio Rodriguez, and Adam Engel with the said amount. I would say they should go up to 5% over pool and pay the 75% tax if they have a chance to sign all 4 players.

So none of you think he's not ready for high A pitching?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 14, 2013 -> 12:30 AM) You don't send him back to rookie ball with that kind of money invested in him and an 804 OPS combined between Kanny and Winston-Salem last year. You're panicking. If he's still doing this 3-4 months through 2014, then there's a right to be concerned. Look how long it has taken Trayce Thompson to get to where he is, for example. Am not. At the start of the season, I thought he will go back to Kanny and spend at least 2-3 months there. Most of the board predicted the same. WS is a tough assignment for him, considering how little baseball experience he has had. It's wonderful you brought up Trayce Thompson. It further proves my point. Jared Mitchell has been a major disaster, and Thompson is showing gradual, albeit small improvements each year. Mitchell spent 35 games or so in Low A, before being sent to WS after his injury, with 35 games of full time baseball under his belt. He had a horrendous year at WS of course, but instead of repeating the level, he was rushed to Double A the next season. He is a hopeless prospect now. Hawkins isn't running out of time like Mitchell was. (Same deal with Keenyn Walker, he should be repeating WS this year.) Where as Thompson actually spent 2 1/2 years at Low A and below before he was promoted to WS. He was drafted out of HS known for his athletic ability, same deal as Hawkins. He was promoted only when he has shown he can handle the level for an extended period of time. So yes, take your time you get a Thompson, rush him he will end up with a Mitchell. Sox need to understand these players aren't pitchers like Dan Hudson or Addison Reed, you have to be patient with them. Hawkins, Thompson, Walker and Mitchell are athletes who play baseball, not baseball players who are athletic. They need time to develop, and they are still learning the fundamentals of the game.

Rookie ball is fine by me. He just needs to face less advanced pitching while rebuilding his confidence and swing.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jun 13, 2013 -> 11:03 PM) Let's write off a 19 year old 1st round pick at High A that did not play much baseball as a high schooler. Sounds like a great idea. So if he's 19 years old with less baseball experience, why push him to a level he's not ready for, if lack of experience is the cause for struggle? I am not writing him off by any means, but a demotion makes sense here, the Sox need to take action before they break him.

QUOTE (Jake @ Jun 13, 2013 -> 10:18 PM) It's literally impossible to look at a guy and tell if he has a bad approach or bad pitch recognition. For the opposite example, I'm of the mind that Miguel Cabrera is not "the smartest hitter in baseball," as Hawk says. I think he's just so good that he doesn't need to be smart or have a good approach because he just sees everything perfectly. However, that is only my opinion because you can't tell the difference. Bad pitch recognition will make your approach look bad and vice versa. Lots of reasons to be optimistic with Hawkins and I think a demotion is a horrible idea. There really isn't. The only thing he has going for him is power and age. Other baseball skills are severely lacking. People keeping bringing up he's 19 years old, and we should cut him some slack for his inexperience. We indeed should, to an extent. But at some point this trend should become a major cause for concern. People act like 19 year old high schoolers typically struggle like this when they turn pro, but they really don't. Without looking up stats, his strikeout rate has gotten but one of the worse of all time. And how many 19 year olds who struggle to this extent actually turned out to be a successful major leaguer? Not too long ago, people were cutting the same slacks for Jared Mitchell - he's played pro baseball for less than 2 years, he's coming back from a horrendous injury, he's a supreme athlete he will turn around. The organization can take the same approach with Hawkins as they did with Mitchell - just let him figure things out, and eventually he will start making contact. Or we can take him down one level, start from the basics, and help rebuild his swing and refine his approach. It may be a bit demoralizing in the short run, but it can definitely do more good than harm in the long run.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Jun 13, 2013 -> 09:33 PM) From the assessments I've recently read, it's less about a flawed swing and largely due to very poor pitch recognition. Edit: Actually the swing can have its issues apparently: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article....articleid=20890 I actually think it's more so his approach than anything that results in the absurd K%, while the poor pitch recognition isn't helping with the approach that he's taking, which indirectly results in a extremely low walk %. Does most 19 year olds have holes in their swing? Sure. But Hawkins is striking out at an historic rate. Just by looking at the HR/Hit ration, you can clearly see he's looking to hit one out every time he's batting. If he approach every at bat as just looking for an opportunity to get on base, the rest of his game will come along a lot quicker. It would make sense that BP describe his swing as "wild", as he is trying to dead pull the ball every time. I don't think he has to drastically change his swing, however, with a few minor tweaks and a new, and more humble mentality, he still has a chance to reach his spacious ceiling.

Reality check for those who jumped on the Hawkins bandwagon too soon. 0-5 with 5 K's is a pretty tough feat, it only further shows he has some serious holes in his swing. Sooner or later, we might have to break up his swing/approach and have him relearn the basics again, i.e. a demotion, while he's still new to the game.

That's why all the promotion talks are pointless. Unless Hawkins is hitting homeruns, he's virtually useless as a hitter. He strikeouts too much to move the runner along, and he rarely gets on base through hits/walks. He's got ways to go before he gets promoted.