The Sir

QUOTE (Tex @ Oct 2, 2011 -> 10:52 AM) You presented the idea that you either support 100% or not at all. I am just pointing out it is really easy to support some but not all. People make decisions on where to deploy our Troops and under what conditions. Sometimes those decisions are wrong. Supporting, for example, ridiculous rules like only return fire, do not initiate or do not follow combatants into Cambodia, because to question it somehow doesn't support the Troops, is silly. Just like you can support some of the military but not everyone, others can support the Troops while while being critical of how they are being used. I find it morally reprehensible to cause the deaths of American soldiers for certain gains. Just because Congress or the CiC decides something is a worthy cause is not reason enough I should support that cause. That is your job. To blindly follow their orders. My responsibility as a citizen is to question why soldiers are being used. That's one of the oversights we have as part of the Constitution. And I lol at you voting for a liberal candidate who is a vet over a non serving conservative candidate. It just ain't going to happen vato. I can respect that post. Except for the end part. Where did I ever say military service was the only requirement? We went over this a long time ago. Conservative ideals, fidelity to your wife, honorable military service. I'm not voting for a liberal in any circumstances, and if it was a liberal vet against a conservative non-vet, I won't vote at all. Or I'll write somebody in.

QUOTE (Tex @ Oct 2, 2011 -> 10:31 AM) So how can you support the military if you don't support the CiC? You're questioning others that they can support the personnel but not the cause, how can you support the cause without supporting the CiC? This is ridiculous. I will follow all orders of the CiC. That's my "support" for him and for the cause he now claims to lead. But for the man himself, in 2012, and in any other year where a non-veteran runs, I will not vote for them. By your logic, 90% of the military doesn't support the cause.

QUOTE (Tex @ Oct 2, 2011 -> 06:49 AM) Simple, you will understand why some of us do not support some of the causes when you understand why you do not support the Commander in Chief. How can you support the military then rip the Commander? I have a certain level of resentment for any CiC who never served. He holds this authority over our Armed Forces but never wore the uniform himself? How is he supposed to understand our lives and the challenges we face? Now, I'll follow the CiC's orders no matter what his background. And if you've read enough of my posts, you know I also resent people like Terrence Lakin, the field grade officer who refused to deploy until Obama provided his birth certificate. The man brought his politics into the workplace and his career was rightfully ended in disgrace. My personal distaste for how the CiC spent his youth is my problem alone. Of course, you already know my solution. Never vote for non-veterans. I, personally, will never support a man for the position of my boss if he hadn't once been in my shoes. I don't think that's unreasonable.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 1, 2011 -> 02:57 PM) The last bit there crossed my line. Please guys, it does not need to come to that level. Well, I'll thank you for editing both insulting parts and not just the one from the conservative. I appreciate that.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Oct 1, 2011 -> 02:35 PM) Nothing even needs to be said after a statement like that. The only people worth admiring are people directly involved in violence. Everyone else is expendable. Give me a f***ing break. I'm supposed to equate some Peace Corps dork with the American Soldier? No. Not happening. This post has been edited by the Soxtalk staff to remove objectionable material. Soxtalk encourages a free discussion between its members, but does not allow personal attacks, threats, graphic sexual material, nudity, or any other materials judged offensive by the Administrators and Moderators. Thank you.

QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Oct 1, 2011 -> 12:17 PM) Really? Doctors that sacrifice 100k + paychecks to help sick kids in Africa don't sacrifice? That's just "acceptable"? People that accept poor wages to work in the worst schools and communities in the country don't sacrifice? The only sacrifice is putting your own life on the line? Do members of the armed services that are not on active duty deserve less credit for what they do? Is the only acceptable sacrifice being in the literal line of fire? I'm deleting what I originally posted because comparing people's sacrifices just bothers me when I reread it. I still put the military on a pedestal because it's been my life. I grew up in it and my children will grow up in it. The enormous amount of respect I pay to the military that some of you view as unreasonable is because of this. I will always hold the military in this sacred manner, and I won't apologize for it. But to say that one sacrifice is greater than another is an immature thought that I don't really like having said. Oh well.

QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Oct 1, 2011 -> 12:12 PM) Doesn't mean I want your mission to fail. Doesn't mean that I'm not rooting for the success of American troops. It means I don't think you should be there in the first place. I'll accept that. I'm still curious what you would say to the situation of my friend, though.

A few years ago, a friend of mine deployed to Iraq. He was involved in an engagement where he opened up on enemy forces with his M249 Squad Automatic Weapon, killing 34 of them. He was awarded the Silver Star for his actions and he still proudly wears this medal. But if you don't support the war, he killed thirty four people who, whether they were bloody insurgents or not, should never have been killed because my friend never should have been there to confront them in the first place. He supported it though, and to this day, he believes his actions were absolutely just. So where do you draw the line on that one? Are you glad he came home safely but upset that he killed 34 bad people in a war you find unjust? Are you supportive of the fact that he did what he had to do for the survival of his squad? This is why I just think it's difficult to support the troops without supporting their cause. It's a blurry line.

QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Oct 1, 2011 -> 11:47 AM) Ridiculous statement. I can support our troops (and their sacrifice) and hope they come home safe while disagreeing with our reason for being in a foreign country. That doesn't mean that I hope that troops die (as you seem to indicate), but rather it means that I don't believe that we should have ever been engaged in said foreign engagement. Hoping I don't get my head blown off is all it takes to support me? I'm glad you don't want me dead. Hell, I don't even think Maoist Rebel News wants me to get killed. But that doesn't mean either of you support me.

QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Oct 1, 2011 -> 11:47 AM) As I have mentioned before with you, though, you put the military on a pedestal and seem to believe that it is the only noble service to country. Without discounting your service, or the service of your brothers, I would like to see you acknowledge that there are plenty of people that work at home (Teach for America, Americorps, Policemen, Firemen) who sacrifice for their community and Americans that work abroad (Doctors Without Borders, Peace Corps, etc.) that sacrifice for the greater good. I'll give you policemen and firemen. They risk their lives for the public good. I'll absolutely give you that one. But the others? Where's their sacrifice? How many Peace Corps members have died in the line of duty? Or Americorps members, or TFA, or whatever. Yeah, that's great...they go abroad and build huts for the less fortunate. Awesome. But what risk is there? What sacrifice do they make? It's an acceptable thing to do, but I'm not going to throw them up there on the same level as the armed forces. So yes, not everyone can be a troop. We need members of society to do other things. Teachers, doctors, lawyers, janitors...we need people to do these things. That doesn't mean I'm going to afford them the same respect and level of nobility that I give to Soldiers. I will never apologize for putting the military on a pedestal.

QUOTE (Tex @ Oct 1, 2011 -> 05:37 AM) How do you sign up in support of a cause that hasn't even started? Are you seriously claiming that every war action the US is involved in should be 100% supported? Morally and legally aren't you required to not follow an order that you believe to be illegal or immoral? Shouldn't the citizens be allowed that same right? They're allowed to be against the war. I have no problem with that. But you simply can't claim to support us while refusing to support the cause for which we are prepared to give our lives. Support who we are but not what we are doing? Yeah, right. If what we are doing and signing up for is wrong, then why do you support us in the first place? Is there an actual reason for it? Or is it just the politically correct thing to do? Take it from guy. Yeah, he's a pompous, twatty Mao-wannabe who spouts unfounded bulls*** and taunts internet critics while hiding in his ridiculously decorated bedroom, but he's picked up on the concept of not supporting the troops if you don't support the war they are so eagerly fighting. Don't take that as me putting that guy on a higher level than you. I'd feel bad about that. I mean, I really, really f***ing hate that guy. I'm just curious how people claim to support the troops and don't support their causes. Really, why is it? Is it because bashing the troops is such a quick way to receive vitriol and bile from other citizens? It just confuses me. On another note, I want to talk about how much I hate that f***ing guy. He's a fat 30 year old loon who lists Miley Cyrus and Avril Lavigne amongst his favorite musicians. He bashes militarism and sits there in his bedroom wearing a fake Soviet military uniform. He bashes capitalism and preaches communism as the true path while feeling to realize that communism murdered 100,000,000 people in the past century. He comes up with some bogus number of people killed by capitalism, including in it 60,000,000 from WWII for some inexplicable reason and 306,000,000 killed by smoking since 1960, as if those are somehow capitalism related and Fidel Castro isn't famous for chomping on huge cigars. He preaches the awesomeness of North Korea where people starve to death daily under an insane dictator, all while he lives comfortably in Canada. You'd think if the DPRK rocked so much, he'd f***ing live there. This FARC guerrilla poser dips*** probably works as a barista at Starbucks. f***ing loser.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Oct 1, 2011 -> 07:49 AM) Are you cool with fellow conservatives booing your gay and lesbian comrades in the military? Wouldn't that be an example of "not supporting the troops"? If I booed a soldier your brain would explode with anger. I mean you've already made it clear in the past that liberals are unamerican and don't support troops. How do you classify the bolded in the first sentence? That was one or two turds in that crowd, Sqwert, and the rest of the crowd reacted swiftly in telling him to shut the hell up. It's unfortunate that hateful bigots like that would show up to a GOP debate, but please realize that they didn't speak for that entire audience.

QUOTE (Tex @ Oct 1, 2011 -> 05:55 AM) The issue becomes updating our laws to reflect that not all of our enemies are in traditional armies with national ties. If this guy was flying a Japanese plane over Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941 we'd have had no problem with blasting him from the sky instead of detaining him for questioning and possible arrest. If this guy was on Pork Chop Hill talking away on his radio helping the North Koreans we'd have no problems with providing a bullet to the head instead of providing a phone call. If he was facing south in Kontum Province we wouldn't have any second thoughts about heroes like John Vann (Medal of Freedom as civilian in Vietnam) or the 44th Infantry Regiment dealing with this guy instead of a lawyer dealing with him. Today we have a different battlefield. We may never have clear lines of command, no lines in the sand. What line would have been placed on the World Trade Center? At some point we will redefine who is, and who is not, and American citizen. When we do, I am quite certain, he will be an example of someone who has given up that citizenship and taken up the role as enemy. Very good point that I didn't think of, Tex. This is very much the product of fighting a fluid enemy that slips across borders and has no distinct base or uniform or whatever. Touche.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 30, 2011 -> 03:30 PM) My relationship with my wife started with a 3-month bender, more or less. You have a wife?

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 30, 2011 -> 09:41 PM) yeah but what I call him is reality, since he died an American citizen. McVeigh also took up arms against Americans, but that didn't give the government the ability to order his assassination without due process. I'm shocked a criminal justice major would have such little disregard for the law and Constitution. It's a shame to see somehow throw aside American institutions and what this country stands for so callously when it suits them. Unlike you, I fully support the ideals this country was founded on. Typical and unsurprising, though. What, honestly, would you have preferred the government to do? He took up arms against the US and hid in a foreign country. He didn't surrender or show any sign of doing so anytime soon. And all the while, more nutjobs were inspired by this evil man and more people continued to die. Forgive me for taking the practical route and being thankful that my government decided to kill him. Timothy McVeigh was captured. Awlaki could have received the same treatment if he had been captured or he had surrendered, but he didn't. So we did what we had to do to save lives and get rid of a bad, bad guy. I have no problem with that. It would have been different if we had captured him and summarily executed him, but that didn't happen. We smoked a guy who continued to fight from hiding. Big deal.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 30, 2011 -> 09:38 PM) Because the NRA cares more about the letter behind a persons name than they do about gun rights or safety. Or because Obama supports the UN Small Arms Treaty...

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 30, 2011 -> 09:36 PM) No s***. I had to take an hour long course on that crap. It was a waste of my time. The instructor even thought it was a waste of time. All because some liberal politician who had never served in the Armed Forces wanted to score political points.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 30, 2011 -> 09:30 PM) and that's still a dumb non-argument on why you're cool with denying due process rights to American citizens He took up arms against the United States. You call him an American citizen, I call him a guy who earned the right to be vaporized by CIA drones.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Sep 30, 2011 -> 09:26 PM) *raises hand* And what's wrong with that? I even support the gay and lesbian troops unlike many of your fellow conservatives. Oh cool. The leftist circle jerk never would have been complete without you. Thanks for coming. If you don't support our assigned mission, you don't support us. Any troop would tell you that. The whole "support the troops by bringing them home" idea is ludicrous to us. We weren't drafted. We signed up to support a cause. If you don't support that cause, you don't support us. End of story. I don't really give a s*** if a troop is gay or not. I just don't like seeing our time wasted to conduct social experiments in tolerance. Time that, mind you, could be better spent training for actual combat scenarios and not on how to see gay people as people.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 30, 2011 -> 09:17 PM) that's pretty dumb since I support the 2nd and have for years in this forum. Stop making dumb assumptions about everyone. Not in my book, you ain't.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 30, 2011 -> 09:19 PM) no, it is ironically a dumb partisan assumption You spend an awful lot of time whining about my assumptions and not much time proving my assumptions incorrect.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 30, 2011 -> 09:13 PM) Barack Hussein Obama has an F in every category the Brady Campaign evaluates politicians on. He gets Fs from Gun Owners of America and the NRA too. Looks like everybody hates him.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 30, 2011 -> 09:10 PM) more assumptions about people are always helpful It's an educated guess. He's free to tell me that I'm wrong, but I don't think he will.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 30, 2011 -> 09:04 PM) yeah, f*** the constitution anyway, amirite? Stop trying to murder the 2nd Amendment and then come talk to me about respecting the Constitution, okay? There's some more tu quoque for you.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Sep 30, 2011 -> 08:55 PM) He claims the army is so high and mighty, than makes in fun of my for being in a support our troops club. I just think it's funny. Let me guess...you're one of those "support the troops but not the war" types, right?