Paulstar

I think the fake would have been a bigger play if they didn't reverse it.

QUOTE (beck72 @ Jan 6, 2014 -> 04:42 PM) Exactly. The Sox don't have extra talent to trade right now for a C, besides De Aza. But after another season in the minors, some guys may step up, and improve their value. I was thinking infield guys as well. But also, OF guys-Thompson, Hawkins, etc. Not to mention Viciedo, if he improves his numbers from 2013. I still think his free swinging ways are a big part of what the sox want to get away from. But could have decent value to other teams. Or some of the young prospects don't do well and lose some value. I believe its all about self scouting and trading the players you firmly believe won't be good and keeping the ones you do believe will be good. Not hoarding fringe prospects just because you don't have a lot.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 6, 2014 -> 10:07 AM) Then you acquire someone else. Wieters could certainly be available too, plus you can probably trade for Saltalamacchia too. There are going to be other players available next offseason if necessary. If Hahn and co. wanted Salty and thought he was a good option for the future, I feel like they would have signed him. I believe he goes against what Hahn would prefer with low OBP, high strikeout rate, and not that great of a defensive player either. He does provide some pop though and a switch hitter that doesn't hurt. Wieters on the other hand seems like someone Hahn would like (especially if he sticks around his 2011 or 2012 numbers and not his 2013 numbers), but he's about to hit the market soon and probably gonna get more money than the White Sox would likely give out. Castro, I believe, fits the Hahn mold the best. Lefty, won't be cheap but probably won't be crazy expensive, some pop, and there's hope his K rate will decrease and walk rate increase as he develops as a hitter over the next couple years.

QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Jan 5, 2014 -> 11:55 PM) I'm not throwing Dayan in to that deal unless I'm getting George Springer back. lol. I'd definitely toss them Beckham and Snodgress, or just Carlos Sanchez. I wasn't saying I would either, just throwing out names the Astros would probably be interested in.

QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Jan 5, 2014 -> 11:48 PM) That comment was all kinds of contradictory. lol. I'd still rather see Quintana for Castro and Altuve, rather than just straight up. I think Quintana has a ton of value that should warrant more than just 1 player who has only been good, albeit very good, for just 1 season. If they want De Aza for LF, fine. Make it Quintana + De Aza for Castro and Altuve. I think in that scenario, it'd have to be Quintana, Beckham (stop gap and still kinda cheap option for a couple years until some of their really good MI prospects are MLB ready), and maybe a couple minor league arms like a Snodgrass type. I'd do that trade still. I don't see them interested in De Aza for LF when they have a younger more upside version of him in Robbie Grossman. If anything, they'd probably be more interested in Dayan Viciedo and how his power would play with the Crawford Boxes.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jan 5, 2014 -> 11:19 PM) Did he get that advice from Matt Barkley? Completely different situations. Barkley's stock was already as high as it could be, he had nothing to gain draft stock wise by going back and everything to lose. Same goes for Jake Locker. Hundley on the other hand has built all of his value based off of his talent and potential. If he has a season next year where he takes the next step and develops his passing game even more, top 5 pick status and even a heisman run is in his future. And I completely forgot about Winston, he's number 1 next year unless something unforeseen happens. Worst case scenario, he gets hurt or has a bad year, he still has his 5th year to rebuild all his value.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jan 5, 2014 -> 10:41 AM) So is UCLA's Hundtley. Seems like PAC QBs stay that extra year often. Makes sense considering he is a fringe first rounder right now, but with a good year next year, he's a potential no. 1 overall pick.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Jan 5, 2014 -> 09:11 PM) If we did do a Quintana for Castro swap which I doubt, I would hope we end up signing Jimenez or Garza. Assuming Tanaka is out of our price range. I'm hoping Garza is an option whether the Sox keep Quintana or not.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 5, 2014 -> 06:48 PM) Based on the fact that they traded Santiago already, I'm going to bet that this coaching staff is very, very high on Quintana, and if this pitching coach says he can keep it up or get better...I wouldn't consider trading him for a catcher. I'd agree with that assessment.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Jan 5, 2014 -> 06:06 PM) Let's say the Astros will give you Jason Castro for 4 unproven prospects in E Johnson, Danish, M Johnson, Hawkins and are not interested in moving Altuve... do you make that deal? All 4 guys are very intriguing, but only E Johnson looks like he's ready now. All have question marks, but there's lots of ceiling there. I wouldn't. Honestly, I might be in the minority here, but I'd rather trade Quintana than both Johnson and Danish. It'd be risky no doubt considering Quintana has been such a good pitcher. But deep down I still question how good Quintana actually is. I'm 50/50 on Quintana and he is one of those guys who you would either look like a genius or a dumbass if you traded now.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Jan 5, 2014 -> 06:24 PM) I wasn't being sensitive it's just you had a post calling everyone crazy but your post lacked any bit of statistical or factual evidence so it was kind of ironic. Please tell me why 2012 and 2013 are not Altuve's ceilings? You say highly debatable that 1-2 guys are supposed to be OBP guys and then say 1-2-3 hitters should be your best OBP guys. He's also been 5'5" in his first 1500+ PAs where he put together a .323 OBP and a .307 wOBA. What from this player makes you think we should trade talent for him when we have Beckham and Semien/Garcia/Sanchez/Johnson waiting in the wings. Because he's a good baseball player. You look primarily at stats, I look at how he plays. I like Semien and have hope for him to be able to stick at SS. Garcia has major flaws with his offensive game, I view him as nothing more than a super utility type of player. Sanchez and Johnson are both still big question marks. Beckham has talent, and its so frustrating to watch him waste it. The only hope for Beckham is if the new hitting coach can get through to him and get him to change his approach. Also, I'm not a big believer in the White Sox ability to develop hitters. The last good hitter actually developed by the White Sox was who? Carlos Lee? Joe Crede?

QUOTE (Wanne @ Jan 5, 2014 -> 06:01 PM) I'm sorry...but somebody explain to me again why the hell the Astros would even consider trading Castro?...do they have a stud C waiting in the wings? Trade him while his value is high for pitching, plus they probably view Stassi's bat playing better in Houston (and he's supposedly a stud defensively to).

QUOTE (raBBit @ Jan 5, 2014 -> 06:02 PM) My argument is that he doesn't provide enough extra value to warrant a trade. You didn't dispute that. You have said: 1.) anyone who disagrees with you is nuts 2.) he's 23 3.) he'd be good as 1-2 1.) I don't have to explain why that's a bad argument. 2.) For such a low ceiling playing that we have many similar to, does that really matter that much? Service time is more important. 3.) 1-2 hitters are suppose to be OBP guys. That's something Altuve doesn't do well. So he doesn't strike out much, that doesn't give Abreu-Dunn someone to knock in. 1.) Don't get sensitive from me being facetious. 2.) Please tell me why 2012 and 2013 are Altuve's ceilings. 3.) Highly debatable. I'd say you'd want your best OBP guys at 1 and 3 in the lineup. Many people believe the 2 hole guy needs to be a guy who can handle the stick well and knows how to put the ball in play when needed. I don't see why, especially considering he's 5'5" with a small strike zone, that if he has some better talent around him and continues to improve as a hitter, that his walk rate won't increase to a point where his OBP is consistently in the .330-.350 range.

QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Jan 5, 2014 -> 05:54 PM) You're the one who called it an outlier, as in, way above what would typically be expected of him. I never called his 1.6 WAR year a great year, but I also don't expect it to be his career high, not even close. I don't think people realize he's only 23, gonna be 24. He's still not even close to his prime and has shown at a young age he knows how to hit MLB pitching.

From purely looking at advanced metrics, hell all stats in general, Altuve is nothing special. However, if you know anything about the actual game of baseball and watch Altuve play, you'd know he's a damn good baseball player. Plays aggressive, probably has a chip on his shoulder because of his height, has a really good approach at bat with a short quick stroke, doesn't try and hit homers but put the ball in the gaps and down the lines, plays really good defense, and has 30+ sb potential. There isn't a whole lot not to like about the way he plays. Plus, when you consider who has batting around him and how he is still only 23 and likely hasn't reached his ceiling, there's a lot of hope for him to get even better.

QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Jan 5, 2014 -> 05:40 PM) I think it's fair to say that US Cellular Field is an easier part to hit HRs in than Houston. I would not be shocked to see Altuve hit 10 HR here in Chicago. But even if he only hits 7 or 8, that's not his strength anyway. His strength is contact and speed. He doesn't need to be trying to hit HR from the #2 spot, where he would fit in nicely on this team. I actually think Houston and the short porch in LF probably helped him sneak out a homer or two. With Altuve, you get your power from doubles and triples.

Anyone who doesn't think Altuve wouldn't be an upgrade over Beckham is nuts. He's only 23 and having a 1-2 of Eaton and Altuve would be nice. I'd definitely be a lot more willing to part with Quintana + some if it meant getting Castro and Altuve back. I don't know why they'd trade Altuve though, he's been their most consistent bat and has become a fan favorite.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Jan 4, 2014 -> 08:43 PM) Put me in the opposite camp here. He's WAY better than any of the options being discussed, and would have cost a lousy ~$20M for three seasons. And I'm no fan, mind you. He would have been nice this year, but I have a feeling Hahn has a bigger plan in mind.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Jan 4, 2014 -> 07:44 PM) Lobaton, Buck, Nieto. For whatever reason, our aim in upgrading the C position has been remarkably LOW, and the biggest failure of the offseason, imo, if nothing better emerges. I'm sure they tried, but it's not like a bunch of good, young catchers who are under team control for a the next 3-5 years are readily available via trade. The few guys out there, I'm sure their teams are asking for a lot in return. I'm just glad the Sox resisted the urge to go after Salty.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 4, 2014 -> 07:43 PM) Tyler Flowers will be paid half that. John Buck is not getting better and is not going to make the 2014 white sox better. The only way it makes sense is if they have no confidence in the ability of their guys to handle the pitching staff...in which case, why does it seem like so many pitches are called from the dugout, and why did they bother with a rule 5 draft pick? If any of them, phegley flowers or neito, have a 0.1% chance of being a solid long term contributor to the white sox...that's better than the chance Buck has. So now we're saying the White Sox are the Marlins and act like one extra million in one season is going to be a huge deal to the team (especially for a team that's already under budget)? This is major league baseball, major league clubs waste millions every year. If I had it my way, guys like Flowers and Buck wouldn't come close to 7 figures but unfortunately baseball is a game where players get grossly overpaid. I don't understand why this discussion is about the future at all either. Someone like Buck would be nothing but a stop gap until something better comes along. For a team that clearly isn't rebuilding but retooling and hoping to be somewhat competitive this season while they infuse young talent (which I believe is the goal of Hahn and the org), then to me someone like Buck starting at Catcher makes a whole lot more sense. Also can we stop acting like Flowers has any chance of being a solid contributor now or ever? I'm sure he's a nice guy and all, but he is not a good baseball player. Phegley maybe has some very small chance of being a solid player, but I think the team views him more of a backup than a starter down the road. And Nieto, Nieto is why I think a veteran like Buck would make sense. I don't see how Hahn could trust Flowers or Phegley as being the full time starters this year while also trying to hide Nieto on the 25 man roster all year. Hell, Nieto might turn out to be a stud and rookie of the year next year, which would be great, but most likely everyone is expecting a tough year for the guy who has never made it out of A ball before. If you put me in Hahn's shoes, I'd like to have a veteran, even a bad one, who has shown he can handle a full catching load throughout a year be the starter with the question mark of a backup rather than having two question marks on team trying to catch. The way I look at it, Tyler Flowers doesn't do anything Buck can't do, but Buck can do things on the baseball field Flowers can't do. And I think those skills (being solid on defense and a veteran) can help out with Nieto and the team next year more than continuing the failed experiment of Flowers or just going through a year of throwing both Phegley and Nieto to the fire to see what happens. Also, at this point I have given up hope for any positive offensive contributions from the catching position, so at least I'd like to see fundamental and sound defense back there for once.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 4, 2014 -> 06:46 PM) Tyler Flowers has outhit John Buck for 2 of the last 3 seasons and John Buck will cost more. I'd call whoever thinks paying John Buck a solid salary the glutton for punishment. Really? Really? We're gonna use a 100 AB sample size of bad to say that someone outhit someone else who had a similar amount of bad in 300-400 AB's? To say one or the other is that much better offensively is absurd and that is embarrasing you tried to make that argument. However, if I had to choose which player I'd rather see catch 100+ games, it'd easily be Buck. Unless his defense has just dropped off the face of the earth in the past couple seasons, he provides the club with a catcher who actually knows how to keep the ball in front of him and he does provide a veteran presence behind the plate. He and Flowers are probably equal offensively (except Buck has shown he can hit MLB pitching in the past and doesn't strike nearly at as high of a clip as Flowers). But odds are Buck's defense would help this team win a whole lot more than Flowers. If he's looking for anything other than a one year deal worth maybe 2 million, then I'd completely understand not bringing him in. But if you can get him on the cheap, I'd see no harm in it.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 4, 2014 -> 06:42 PM) I'd mind it. What are you a glutton for pain wanting to watch Tyler Flowers get another 300+ AB's?

I wouldn't be thrilled with John Buck as the starting catcher, but I wouldn't mind it either. Odds are he and Flowers both have similar offensive upsides, but at least John Buck knows how to play defense and is known as being a good clubhouse guy and leader. I still think a Keppinger and cash for Lobaton trade will eventually go down. Rays need to bolster their bench and have had success with Keppinger, and they have no room for Lobaton on the 25 man roster after trading for and extending Hannigan and re-signing Molina.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 29, 2013 -> 02:05 PM) So you're predicting that between Flowers and Dunn...they will only not make outs 150 times? I think that's equally foolish. Adam Dunn on his own was "not an automatic out" 191 times last year. I never predicted that. I only called you out for your response to jerksticks. If anything, this last post of yours would have been a more fitting response to jerksticks.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 29, 2013 -> 12:23 PM) Wow, a player is an automatic out except for 150 AB's? So they hit... .250? How terrible. My understanding of between them means 150 altogether for both, not 150 for each of them. So I think you make yourself look foolish for trying to make the previous poster look like an idiot. As for which side I'm on... Flowers is not an MLB starting catcher and at best a fringe backup catcher. He can mash bad pitching down in AAA, but he is lost vs. good pitching and to make matters worse he is brutal behind the plate. The only thing going for him is that he occasionally makes contact the leads to a home run (once every 25 AB's or so) and he has a strong arm. Best case scenario is that he turns into a Ramon Castro type of hitter who can mash lefties. But the last thing this team needs is a Ramon Castro (plus almost double the amount of K's) getting 300+ AB's. No team needs that. As far as Dunn goes (and I strongly dislike Dunn as a baseball player), I'd have no problem with him and Konerko platooning at DH as that might actually produce a legit middle of the order bat when you put the two of them together. But back to Flowers, he has no business being on this team, and what makes matters worse is he is getting paid about a million bucks to be one of the worst players in the majors.