Feeky Magee

Definitely overthrowing

f***

Eaton was hitting .364 for his career on bunt attempts before that

Recchia hit around. 6 earned in 5 IP.

Sale at 97

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Aug 1, 2014 -> 07:01 PM) Avisail Garcia starting a rehab this quickly is amazing. I can see a starting OF line up of Garcia in RF, Eaton in CF and who in LF Gonna be difficult for Who to transition from the Japanese leagues so quickly

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Aug 1, 2014 -> 05:22 PM) However in the Majors Leury has one role he can fill and Saladino has zero. Neither player would get in 150 games, in fact, 150 ABs might even be pushing it. And even figuring 150 ABs, the difference in Saladino's bat over Leury's probably doesn't come close to accounting for the defensive versatility and speed advantages Leury provides. That's just flat-out wrong. I've said earlier that Saladino is cromulent at SS and probably above average elsewhere. He can also pinch-run. The point is that his bat is so much better than Leury that even if you think Leury edges him on defence (probably) and speed (definitely), the bat more than makes up for it. There's just no way to hit with a 20 wRC+ at the majors and provide positive value.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 1, 2014 -> 03:00 PM) The thing is we don't have one guy who was ready for the majors, and can do all of those things. We have some guys who can do one of those things, maybe two. None of them were ready to be in the majors in spring training. I don't think any of them are even ready to be major leaguers now. And if you think of the job that Garcia is paid to do, they don't care about platoons and the like. Robin likes he starters to start and play. When he goes to the bench, it is for a guy in a specific situation. More often than not, that situation is either pinch running, or it is a defensive replacement. He doesn't do a lot of platooning, or playing his bench. He wants a pinch runner for PK/JA/AD when they get on in the 9th in a tie game. He wants a plus defender to put at 3B for Conor. He wants an extra OF in case he has to lift two OF's for some reason. If they don't, they should. There's a lot more value to be gained from platooning than pinch-running.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 1, 2014 -> 03:52 PM) I'm arguing that in the situations he has been plugged into, no one in the organization could have given more than Garcia has. We have no better pinch runner. We have no better utility defender, especially one that plays all of the positions he can play. While someone else would probably have a better bat, no one else could fill the situational roles that he has filled. Again, it is the pitching equivalent of taking any pitchers over all numbers, and saying they would be better than a particular LOOGY or specific relief role because of those overall numbers. They aren't asking for an overall role. They are asking Leury to play a very specific role off of the bench, that one else in the entire organization can do better than he can. To equate it to the NBA, he is a 3 point or defensive specialist. You don't look at their PPG to see if they are helping the team, you look to see what they are doing in that specific role. To equate it to the NFL, he is a 3rd down rusher. To equate it to hockey, he is a shootout specialist. I'd much rather a bench piece that can hit at least a bit, platoon, be decent defensively and run a bit rather than absolutely cannot hit, cannot platoon, be good defensively and really good pinch-running. There's only so much value you can get from pinch-running.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 1, 2014 -> 02:34 PM) There is a tool difference here that the Sox are exploiting for specific situations. #1, the kid is a plus defender at multiple positions, including the OF. He has great range, and he has a surprisingly good arm for a guy his size. #2 he is one of the fastest runners in all of baseball. The Sox have used his baserunning skills in a lot of situations. To be 10/11 in steals and barely having played this season is kind of amazing. Has he hit? No he hasn't, but that isn't why he is here. He is the bench equivilant of a LOOGY. He has a couple of very specific roles, and he is really damned good at them. No one in the entire organization can do for the White Sox what Leury Garcia is doing right now. Hitting .184/.220/.243 in 112 PA totally outweighs what he's done on the bases and with the glove. As for defence, he's been relatively disappointing at 2B from what I can recall, particularly given his reputation. I've liked him at third. If you're arguing he can do better at the plate then fair enough, I disagree, but at least it's a debate. But I don't think anyone can claim with a straight face he's been of positive value for the White Sox in 2014.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 1, 2014 -> 02:26 PM) Yes, but it isn't very good. I have a lot more faith in the guy who put up 167 at age-appropriate AA and then 73 in the majors than 104 and 22 respectively. Also Marcus has 131, 123 and 113 at other stops. That's a strong history of being a well above-average hitter for the level. Leury has practically nothing else. What Semien has done in the minors and then initially in the majors is similar-ish to Adam Eaton. I don't doubt Leury would improve with more at-bats but he's starting from such a low base, he has an enormous mountain to climb. Anyway, if you think he has potential to be a productive super-utility player, shouldn't he be in the minors anyway, considering his conditions have been so difficult to do anything with, according to you?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 1, 2014 -> 02:00 PM) If we have enough infor to know what Leury is, using the same criteria, it's time to cut bait on Marcus Semien as well, correct? Even ignoring the whole minor-league track record thing which I talked about extensively, 73 wRC+ is slightly more than 22

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 1, 2014 -> 02:31 PM) In 2012 both Leury and Saladino even though Saladino is 2 years older played in AA. Leury's wRC+ was 104, Saladino's 99. Last year Leury put up an 89 in AAA. Saladino repeated AA and put up an 87. I AM SHOCKED YOU MISSED THIS. BTW, if wRC+ in the minor leagues is really the end all, the White Sox and the rest of baseball are really missing the boat on Jordan Danks. My point is that Saladino's peaks have been legit excellent for the level. Leury's solitary peak was basically average for the level. We also know a lot about what Leury can do in the majors. 220 PA is not insignificant, especially when it results in a 22 wRC+, even if it's less than ideal circumstances. Jordan Danks has only done well when he's really old for a level, so that's not an accurate comp. We also have a decent sample of what he can do in the majors. We don't know about Saladino. Sure, there's a strong chance he can't hack it. But if his peaks are for real, he's got a way better chance than Leury does. Either way, it's worth finding out. In my opinion of course.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Aug 1, 2014 -> 02:11 PM) Again, Saladino will have to overachieve with the bat to be a Keppinger-like player. I'm not hating, just trying to be realistic here. The road to the Majors for a player like Saladino is a long one, and if he gets there at all, it is likely only as a few ABs as a September callup before being removed from the roster. That Angel Sanchez we claimed, Jake Elmore we claimed & let go, Jayson Nix, etc. these guys all have parts of their game that make them better bets as MLB UT types. None have made it. Every year there are tons of guys like Saladino fighting for jobs & none make it. If Saladino could play a capable MLB SS we'd know because in our s***ty system he'd get the attention. Carlos Sanchez is marginalized as a SS here & he's a better spect than Saladino by a good bit IMO. He was starting to get attention until a meh 2012 and a really disappointing 2013. He was just starting to get attention again until the TJ. Nathaniel Stoltz ‏@stoltz_baseball 1h @jimcallisMLB Still no Ravelo. Man. Do like the Hansen call, though. He's hit 96 a few times lately. Heard lots of scouting buzz on Saladino That's from an hour ago. P.S. "Still no Ravelo" refers to the fact that Jim Callis did a White Sox 21-25 and Rangel Ravelo STILL didn't make it. Smdh.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Aug 1, 2014 -> 02:04 PM) No. The bat doesn't matter. Saladino doesn't have a MLB bat. Neither does Leury. Leury does so many other things well that he barely makes an MLB roster. If Saladino was a legitimate MLB defensive SS we would know about it. Trust me on this. Saladino put up a 140 wRC+ at A, 144 at A+ and just did 134 at AAA. The best Leury ever did above rookie-ball was 104. Otherwise it's a bunch of 60s 70s and 80s. Saladino has also had markedly better plate discipline everywhere, which quite strongly correlates to eventual MLB performance. There's a substantial difference between their bats. Either way, I'm not even arguing Saladino is a starter. I'm arguing he's more likely to contribute positive value as a bench piece. Apart from generally being a better bat, he crushes lefties. We have a third baseman who destroys righties and can't hit lefties.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Aug 1, 2014 -> 12:28 PM) I think you're missing the larger view/point: 1) Leury has MLB defense at multiple positions, while Saladino does not 2) Leury has elite speed, while Saladino does not 3) Because of 1 + 2 Leury can be a PR for an MLB team as well as a late inning replacement and spot starter for an MLB team defensively, while Saladino really cannot 4) In terms of bat Leury has no bat whatsoever, but Saladino's bat is fringey Is Saladino's fringey bat enough to make him more valuable to an MLB team than Leury? No, because these players exist absolutely everywhere. Saladino really has a very small chance of playing in the Majors, and if he does, he will have to be a Keppinger type and hit his way into the picture. Chris Getz by comparison was a much better prospect than Saladino & look at how long he stuck around. Pablo Ozuna was a SS coming up, look at how long he stuck around, and Pablo was long ago also a much better prospect than Saladino & better than Getz by quite a bit as well. The general rule of thumb is that whatever the prospect is, he'll probably be a whole lot lesser at the MLB level than the "trajectory" indicated by his MiLB performance. Most of the tools you read about pretty much define the player and what he is and could be, and the difference is made up "between the ears" as Hawk would say, ie can he make the adjustments, is he mentally capable of dealing with failure, etc. In Saladino's case the tools aren't really there unlike Leury, and if he makes himself an MLB career he will have to do it by overachieving with the bat and so on. You just can't expect that, and MiLB numbers you should ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS take with a grain of salt. Just because a player performs well against a bunch of guys who will never ever even in their wildest dreams sniff the MLB level doesn't mean he has a shot at dealing with the MLB game and MLB pitching specifically. MLB pitching is smarts/experience + stuff most of the time with each player having 2-4 pitches he can throw over for a strike, and in the minors it's just one or the other mostly, stuff (1 pitch usually, maybe a second) OR smarts/experience. You get a guy with a big fastball who can't throw good strikes and has a s***ty secondary offering or an Axelrod or something with a very limited arm but who knows how to attack a hitter's vulnerabilities. The MLB level - just think of how much money is in the game as a clue to how much more sophisiticated the MLB level is strategically vs. the minors (Robin the Genius notwithstanding). I'm not missing the point, I'm disagreeing with it. Garcia's talents, at this moment in time, are far outweighed by his absolute nothingness with the bat. What you're saying would be accurate if the dude could put up like a 60-70 wRC+, but last year it was 25 and this year it's 20. That's indescribably bad, and no amount of pinch-running and defence is gonna make up for that. That's how you get -1.3 WAR in 220 PA. Put him back in the minors and see if he can develop something approaching a hit tool. I don't know how you've decided that Saladino could not be a spot-starter defensively, he was the AAA All-Star starting shortstop this season, and all reviews of his shortstop defence are decent. That would likely make him more than decent elsewhere, and he's played 1B, 2B, 3B and LF as well as SS, and that's all this year. All the talk when Saladino got injured was that it was a shame because he'd been getting scouting buzz, he was close to MLB-ready and the org liked him and were preparing for a late-season call-up.

Who called Alexei trash? As far as I can make out, there's a couple of us advocating trading him to the Yankees for some really good prospects.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Aug 1, 2014 -> 12:41 PM) Leury's value on the diamond is not in his bat. It's the glove, the versatility, the speed. All that together gives you something you care about becasue in terms of defense and speed and versatility he's more valuable and more elite than most UT type players are. The bat, you are penciling in an 0fer everytime out. That is why he is kind of a prototypical NL contender's 25th piece. Re: Saladino neither the bat nor the defense nor the speed makes your panties wet. He has a chance at being a MLB player but he has fewer tools than say a Jayson Nix or something. No one will really care about gaining or losing his services. Is Garcia's defence and baserunning better enough than Saladino's to justify the quite large difference in the bat? I don't think so. Saladino plays a cromulent shortstop, so I imagine he's fine elsewhere on the diamond. His speed has good reviews. And he can hit. And he's a good platoon candidate. That's a much better bench piece to me than someone who probably pinch-runs better and maybe has a slightly better glove (and Garcia's defence, particularly at second has actually been quite meh this year. I've liked him at third.) QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 1, 2014 -> 12:44 PM) He has had 112 PA in 109 games. That is barely 1 a game and a 166 plate appearance pace for a 162 game season. That's barely playing. Again, though we get there differently, it sounds like from both of our arguments he should be in the minors.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 1, 2014 -> 12:29 PM) Regular ABs would help him. To judge him based on what he's done and point out no improvement is just not fair. He was a decent offensive little player in AA and AAA, and the scouting report said he could develop into a wizard defensively. It's hard to place judgement on young players in the major leagues. It's harder to judge them if they barely play. He only had one stop where he was anything other than bad offensively and that was fueled by BABIP. He's also on pace for nearly 200 PA this year. That's not barely playing. Saladino is the better option next year once he's back and it's not even close.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 1, 2014 -> 10:53 AM) He is 3 days older than Trace Thompson. He is younger than Marcus Semien. He is a few days older than Matt Davidson. Put those guys in Leury's position and ask yourself how they would be progressing offensively. It's hard to improve when you don't play or play very little. As to Saladino, he's 2 years older than Leury, and just had Tommy John. They very well might struggle, but there's that and there's producing what Leury has at the plate. Anyway, it sounds like that with both our arguments he's better off in the minors. You think he's in a situation where it's really difficult for him to improve, I think he's a liability at the major league level and for any slight chance of him making it should be in the minors, so don't we think the same thing? And Saladino should be back in around mid-April.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Aug 1, 2014 -> 10:51 AM) An AL team should have a roster spot for a guy with LGarcia's skillset: can play several positions well and can run fast. The problem is that the Sox are misusing him because (1) they have a 3B with a very severe split differential and (2) they are using a roster spot for a backup DH. If you construct the rest of your roster well you can have a guy like LGarcia on it but not need to start him more than 5-10 times a year. There's a roster spot for that skillset if they can hit even a little. Garcia is a .191/.234/.235 hitter over 223 MLB PA. You can't carry that no matter how flexible the guy is. Then you have Saladino, who hit .310/.367/.483 at AAA this year and played every but centre, right and catcher, with good speed. He also crushes lefties. That's a bench piece.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 1, 2014 -> 11:42 AM) The guy is a kid who hardly plays. He hasn't hit, but what metric says you are what you are at his age and experience? There are tools there to be used off the bench. He can play several positions. he has a great arm and can really run. I am sorry, you cannot possibly know a baseball player and what his future holds simply by reading his fangraphs page. He has had over 220 PA and literally hit like a pitcher. He's not progressing, he's been even worse than last year. He's 23 and a half now. He didn't hit in the minors. Why does he get the job, over say, Tyler Saladino?

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Aug 1, 2014 -> 11:35 AM) They have a future shortstop and his name is Cledius Rondon. We are talking about a guy with potential Simmons defensive upside. Maybe not that good but a tick short. In this new era of low offense, there is an extreme amount of value in a guy like that at a premium defensive position like shortstop. I also think he's capable of learning how to slap out some hits and hit well enough that his bat doesn't completely negate his defensive value and over time, his bat will get better. Good bat speed, great legs, etc. The interesting thing to me about Cleuluis are his splits. He's a switch-hitter, but way better from the right side. This year he's hitting .281/.373/.417 as a righty and .229/.284/.249 as a lefty.

Shocked at the amount of people happy to put Leury Garcia back on the bench. What would he have to hit before the fact he can play a few positions and pinch-run is outweighed?

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 31, 2014 -> 11:15 PM) God, I hate to say this, but...so? You can't get completely wrapped up in numbers. He was facing a good offensive team with trade rumors on the mind and he was less than precise. He's still human. You expect him to be an average pitcher going forward. That's a 2 WAR starter. It's less than his $/WAR value, but that's why you keep him. The Sox marginal value for a starter right now is extreme. John Danks offers some hope for good productivity with the floor of an average starter. I haven't checked yet, but I bet the bWAR (or RA9-WAR) is fairly decent. Danks, while not Buehrle, is still a good fielding pitcher with a good pick off move. Those types tend to outpitch peripherals. I was simply correcting someone who said his WAR was .8. Why do you expect him to be worth 2 WAR going forward? His velocity has fallen from last year, his strikeouts are essentially exactly the same, and his walks have nearly doubled. And last year he was worth .3 WAR, albeit with less innings than he should get going forward and with a flukily high home run rate. Also, if Danks is so good at outpitching his peripherals, how come his career numbers essentially exactly match his peripherals? ERA: 4.22 FIP: 4.33 xFIP: 4.21 SIERA: 4.23