DBAHO

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 02:24 PM) Neal never pitched in aaa, try again. And yet when he came up to the majors he struggled like McCarthy. See the comparison, and the benefits we're seeing with Cotts now?

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 02:24 PM) Once again, I'm not giving up on him. However, there's a difference between the adjustment Cotts made, and what McCarthy needs to improve on. One is more mental, while the other is McCarthy's stuff. And because of McCarthy's frame he's probably going to fill out and add that little bit of extra velocity that he is going to need. It's not like Cotts throws real dominating stuff anyway.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 02:21 PM) Contrary to Cotts, BMac never had previous AAA success of even a sliver of MLB success. Cott's was groomed into what he is today. No, he is not our most dominationg lefty out of the pen. He is 2nd, behind Marte. Duh.... So you would say based on this season, Marte has been better than Cotts? And Neal Cotts didn't pitch in AAA ball, he came straight from Birmingham. He has never pitched in Charlotte.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 02:20 PM) The main reason Cotts is better now is his control. Remember how awful his control was in the past? I mean, he wasn't even close to the plate. And that was because of a simple adjustment he had to make. See how it can change so easily? That's why I'm saying it's unfair to give up on a guy who hasn't performed in the majors straight away when he shouldn't have even been up there in the 1st place.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 02:19 PM) Many smart fans would say BMac is overrated. Money has little to do with being overrated. Especially if you are a prospect. You can't argue with PK's production, you CAN argue with BMac's production. After ST, everyone thought BMac was ready for the bigs. He blew in AAA, we brought him up, and he blew in MLB. Moot point... I for one didn't think he was ready, and like I've said he should have been sent back to B-Ham. And like I've said, McCarthy would probably be having success for a team like Detroit if he got to pitch half his games at Comerica instead of the Cell.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 02:17 PM) Comparing him to Gio is totally different. Gio is rated as one of our top pitching prospects. He is succeding in A ball. Gio hasn't pitched in AA, AAA, or Spring Training. And that's Brandon McCarthy this time last season. See the comparison?

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 02:16 PM) The biggest concern I have about McCarthy is that he's going to either have to pick up another 2 mph on his fastball, or he's going to have to change the type of fastball he throws. Right now, he's throwing a pretty average fastball straighter than Hugh Heffner. Hopefully, he'll gain some velocity as his body fills out. However, he's going to have to get some movement on his fastball. It's not like his future MLB home stadium is a pitcher's park. He's still only 190 pounds, he's going to bulk up in the next few years and probably add a few more MPH like you said he needs. It's like Neal Cotts. In SoxFan's books, he wouldn't have done anything 2 months ago. Now he's probably our most dominating lefty out of the pen. And that's because the Sox had PATIENCE with him at the major league level, even though the majority of Sox fans were calling for him to have his ass demoted to Charlotte ASAP. It takes TIME.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 02:13 PM) IT'S TOO f***ING LATE NOW HUH? You can't change that s***. He IS in AAA, he WAS brought up, he DIDN'T produce, and that is it. He hasn't done s*** in my book. Spring Training, like YOU said, is just Spring Training. His 2004, 2003, and 2002 stats mean jack s*** right now. Wow, Sammy Sosa had 60 home runs in 2003, he is awesome! If you were KW after spring training, where would you have sent Brandon McCarthy?

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 02:11 PM) If McCarthy hasn't been overrated this season, then I don't want to know who is considered overrated. Overrated are players that make more than they should, and players that get pumped up in the media when they don't deserve to. A lot of White Sox fans would tell you that Paul Konerko is overrated.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 02:10 PM) Agreed. And DBAH0, yes, I am basing it on what he has done when it counts. A combined 3-8 with a 6.745 ERA for a top prospect is overrated and underachieveing. Take away his MLB starts. To say he only has 3 wins is not a good argument when you see how bad Charlotte has been this season. He has a 86/20 K/BB ratio. All he has to do is cut down on the long balls. If he starts the year in AA, he would have an ERA of around 2, and people wouldn't call him overrated, in fact people would be putting him on a pedestal. It's not fair for you to base on what he's done when it counts, when he's only 21, and only has 1/2 a season of experience above AA ball. It's like take Gio Gonzalez out of Winston - Salem right now, promoting him to Chicago, he gives up 6 ER in a start, gets demoted, and people are saying he's overrated.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 02:09 PM) I remember hearing Hawk and Ozzie saying how we had a great 6th starter in McCarthy if someone got hurt. Then, we called him up, and he was clearly not ready. That's a textbook example of being overrated. I wouldn't call it overrated. I'd call it people pumping him up before he's ready.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 02:05 PM) I said earlier that I am NOT writing him off. I honestly hope he becomes a very successful pitcher for the Sox if he doesn't get traded. What I'm saying is that he is highly overrated by people here. And that's just because of what he's done this season so far?

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 02:04 PM) I could care less about credibility, but right now, McCarthy is overrated. Doesn't mean he'll always be overrated, but in his stint with the Sox this year, he underachieved. Because he never should have been up with the Sox in the 1st place. Realistically they should have started him in AA this year, and then moved him up to Charlotte after this year's draft. If they did that, and McCarthy was putting up numbers like he did last season, don't you think Sox fans would be getting restless if he wasn't in our rotation when El Duque got injured?

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 02:03 PM) This quote in tomorrow's Tribune tells me all I need to know: "I feel comfortable going to the playoffs with Garland, El Duque (Orlando Hernandez), Freddy (Garcia) and (Mark) Buehrle. That's a good enough [rotation] for our guys to contend." Ozzie doesn't like Contreras. Reading the rumors tonight, it seems KW is offering him in every package for a SP like you said. Not that I agree with it, but it's what they're doing.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 02:01 PM) Who's to say that he might not? What has he done to prove he will be successful? This is his FIRST season above AA ball. At least give him a few seasons to see how he performs before completely writing him off. You don't think last year's numbers said he was not going to be successful some day?

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 02:00 PM) So, what? He is a Spring Training pitcher? Can you guarantee me that he will be consistent in the future? He is highly overrated IMO. He has a great Spring Training and all of the sudden, he is the best Sox prospect ever! He was the #1 prospect going INTO Spring Training. If you saw the numbers he put up last year of course you would have been excited about him, because he's still very young for an excellent SP prospect.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:59 PM) If we're going to trade McCarthy, it has to be for a star player who will help us not only this year, but in the future. Schmidt is what I would classify as a star pitcher, and we'd have his option for next season. Our offense will likely be relatively cheap next season if we don't resign PK. We should be able to afford the 4 stud pitchers then. It's not like Contreras is a cheap number 4 pitcher. It depends how much payroll KW wants to be locked up in our rotation. It could reach up to 40-50%.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:56 PM) 24,468...... :headshake And you're saying Brandon McCarthy is probably going to join them on evidence of what he's done so far this year?

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:56 PM) No, I mean that the longer he struggles in AAA, the more his stock will decrease. McCarthy was not rated among the top 20 prospects in baseball after last season. Here we go;

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:55 PM) So what the hell is your stance????? To keep him of course.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:53 PM) EXACTLY! No f***ing pressure and he strived. Then, he blew ass in he minors and blew ass in the bigs. It was still the whole damn Rangers line up! How many players have performed well in Spring Training and have then gone on to do nothing else in their MLB career?

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:52 PM) EXACTLY! He has done nothing to help them. They still suck. Trade Morse for Alex Rodriguez. Would they be above .500?

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:50 PM) As for McCarthy.....I've seen nothing that would suggest to me he'll even be anything more than a number 4 starter. McCarthy wasn't a huge prospect before the end of last season, and his status was completely overblown in ST. His stock will never be higher than it is right now. Of course, I'd rather trade McCarthy in a package with Sweeney and another player in order to get Lidge. McCarthy would have been in the top 15-20 prospects of baseball at the end of last season, and he had the most K's in all of the minors last season IIRC. How can his stock be higher now than at the end of ST?

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:48 PM) Look at last year's Freddy Garcia trade. We were all screaming about how Olivo/Morse/Reed was such a steep price and how Reed would be an All-Star type player and that Olivo will be a great catcher. Look how it turned out. Olivo got sent down. Reed has been good but not great. Morse has been hitting well I guess but to no success rate to the team. Olivo is back with the M's, and they won't trade him because of his arm and defense. Reed is in his 1st full season in the majors, and yes Morse has been hitting well and it's hard to say no success rate to the team when it's not like Seattle's any good anyway.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:46 PM) McCarthy is 21 years old and was in A ball last year. I still think he should be in B-Ham right now. He needs to be in the minors for the nex year maybe 2. He was rushed along because of 2 great years in the minors and an amazing spring training. You're making yourself look like an ass right now. Because of the likes of Dontrelle Willis and Mark Prior, every SP prospect that gets called up now is automatically expected to perform on the MLB level and that's unfair (especially if they're not ready). This time last year he was pitching for the Winston - Salem Warthogs. Now people want to trade him because he didn't pitch well in the majors.