DBAHO

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:44 PM) Like I said, I am not giving up on him. But, he got his chance, in 3 different places and has only been successful when it doesn't count at all, Spring Training. Trade when the value is high. He had success pitching away from the Cell, like I said teams like the Devil Rays, Tigers etc. would love to have him in their rotation right now. How can his value be higher now than at the start of the season? It just sounds like he's a throw - in in this proposed Schmidt deal, and he's worth a lot more than that.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:42 PM) Considering all things, including KW's prospect-trading-track-record, and numbers and everything, IN MY OPINION, Schmidt would improve this team for that price. So would you say the Roberto Alomar trades were worth it? Yes Schmidt would probably improve this team (I say probably because if he goes back to his early season form then he won't), but not for that cost. You're giving up a #3 starter, a reliever who's had closer experience and your #1 pitching prospect.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:40 PM) Shingo will be gone anyway, BMAc has amounted to nothing yet. I;m not giving up on him but all we have really seen from him is 1 1/2 good starts and an excellent ST. Come on, he's been getting knocked around in the minors. And Count, well, he is the topping on the cake for SF. They want 2 ML pitchers, take Count and Shingo. So because B-Mac's amounted to nothing yet, he's automatically tradeable? FWIW McCarthy's last start he only gave up 2 ER in 6IP, and the game was at Charlotte where he has been struggling. It's pretty much giving up 3 major league pitchers for 1, because Brandon McCarthy WOULD be a starter on some teams in the majors.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:33 PM) Ok, I give up. Rauch, just because he was to BE as starter by NO means, means he is successful. Rupe is dominating in the minors. A.) What level? B.) BMac was dominating in ST and got knocked around in the minors....means NADA. B-Mac dominating in the minors was almost the worst thing for him, it raised everyone's expectations for him and now since he didn't perform accordingly, people want to trade him. 5 years from now, how good is he going to be? Rupe dominated in A and AA ball, but hasn't been as good in AAA, still he could be ready by the start of next season considering the Rangers' need for SP. Just remember if you include McCarthy and Contreras in a deal for Schmidt, you've given up too much, they're not even going to offer that for A.J Burnett.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:29 PM) As provided by Milkman, 2.77 ERA in last 6 starts sound damn healthy to me... What about his velocity? All I'm saying is don't automatically expect he's going to do that when he pitches at the Cell when you have a look at his BAA and away splits.

QUOTE(BHAMBARONS @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 12:30 PM) Jacksonville 2 Barons 1 W-Oreduff L-Meaux Sv- Broxton A very hard loss tonight considering the Barons out hit the Suns 9-5 Jacksonville also committed 3 errors a runner caught stealing and balked in a run still wins 2-1. Big plays in the game a dropped throw by Chris Stewart that allowed the winning run to score and a baserunning mistake by Stewart in the 9th which got him picked off at 3rd was huge. 2 hits today by Garcia, Blakely they also struck out twice as well. Jerry Owens stole 2 bags in a row. Kris Honel pitched very well giving up a 319 ft wind aided homerun. What was Honel's velocity at tonight BHAM, and how was the fastball/curve looking?

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:31 PM) Damn, that's what the O's get for having a fat guy named B.J. as their closer. Poetic justice, I think. I'd like to know how the O's can only score 2 runs off Lohse in 6 innings from 10 hits, and only 1 K.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:27 PM) Quintero was rated mid-level IIRC and both of those guys were involved in the same deal. Qunitero/Fernandez to San Diegofor the one and only D'Angelo Jimenez. 2002..... Then isn't there a difference between trading those mid - level guys and giving up your #1 prospect heading into this season in Brandon McCarthy?

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:25 PM) Wait DBAH0 are you arguing the Sox trade away a lot of guys that turn out to be good? Right now that may not seem to be the case, but for example we've given up 5 prospects for Carl Everett in 2 seperate trades. Francisco's had success, Majewski is this season, Rauch was going to be a starter for Washington before he got injured, and Josh Rupe is dominating in the minors. Just give it a few years is all I'm saying.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:08 PM) How about pitching injured for the 1st 1/4 of a year? Let's see how Count does pitching with an injury huh? Would you say Schmidt is completely healthy right now?

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:20 PM) He was then traded in 2003 to Texas for Everett. Oh yeah, and DBAH0, you can add Humberto Quintero and Alex Fernandez to that list... How highly rated was Quintero? And how long ago was the Alex Fernandez trade?

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:21 PM) Never said that did I? Didn't think so. You said El Duque doesn't get flustered after 1 bad pitch and has confidence unlike JC. If that's not you trying to say he's better than Contreras without actually saying it, I don't know what is. FWIW would you rather have El Duque or Contreras?

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:20 PM) The thing is that the Twins are actually good at producing good players. We, on the other hand, aren't so good. We can produce sluggers on a fairly good basis, but not so much anywhere else. I say if other teams are convinced that we have a great prospect, we take them for all they're worth. Chances are that he'll never pan out anyway. If Francisco was only in our system for a few months, I wouldn't consider him our prospect at all. We have had success with some of the guys we've brought up, but the Sox have made a majority of good moves with trades for guys who haven't had as much success for their previous team before coming to us like Mr. Podsednik. The Sox need to become good at this though, and I think Brian Anderson is the 1st step on that path. It's harder for us to develop pitchers because it'll be harder for them to pitch at the Cell anyway, but we've got some very good young arms in our system now which hopefully we'll see the benefits of.

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:16 PM) All sure fire 1st ballot guys right there Oh ya, I'm sure Baseball America probably had a field day with that one.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:16 PM) Alrighty Einstein. El Duque has confidence. El Duque doesn't have long AB's. El Duque doesn't make a mistake on one pitch and then get scared to throw that pitch the rest of the game. So now you're trying to say El Duque is better than JC even though JC has much better stats?

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:13 PM) None of those guys are sure things, though. A lot of guys are "capable" of being great and have flashes of brilliance. It's just the way I feel. Prospects are basically nothing but trading chips, IMO. I'd trade any of them (unless they're absolutely can't-miss guys, like Prior, etc.) for ML pieces. For example, as much promise as McCarthy has (and I do believe he can be great), it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see him fall on his face and never pan out. And baseball-reference says that Francisco was from the other Sox farm system. Teams like the Twins have shown the benefits of having good young productive MLB players though. We can't always keep trading for big name priced players, because we don't have a payroll like the Yankees. Francisco was acquired from the Red Sox in the Bobby Howry trade back in 02 IIRC. He was in our system for a few months before the Everett trade.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:09 PM) And who blew that for him. The offense. When? After he was taken out of the game. Hasn't the offense blown more than a "few" games for Jose Contreras then if you're going to use that argument?

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:04 PM) You cant argue against 11 wins.... So Jeremy Bonderman has 11 wins, yet an ERA of 1.5 higher (although that will change after tonight). What does that mean for him especially when the Tigers have a pitcher in Nate Robertson who only has 4 wins yet an ERA of 3.28.

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:05 PM) Yes, but you can't say they're good major leaguers yet, either. There's not many pure Sox prospects that are flourishing in the league right now, that's all I'm saying. Everyone knows Reed is going to be a real good major leaguer though. Morse has that chance too if he keeps hitting well in the majors. Majewski is exactly like Baj, he was given a chance and he's performed. Francisco's pitching last season showed what he's capable of.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 12:49 PM) But El Duque was injured and technically, he is an addition because he has been gone on 2 15-day DL stints.I'll give you Francisco but the other 3, not some much. And compared to the total number of prospects that didn't pan out for the Sox or when traded from the Sox, I'll take my chances. Alright name some prospects for me that have been traded, we'll see where it goes. And I just find it hard to believe people would trade a starter who has better numbers and their best pitching prospect and a reliever / closer who would have success in the NL, for a pitcher who has worse numbers than the original SP.

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 12:51 PM) I'd like to see some extended success from any of them to consider them prospects that turned into good players. Well you can't make that statement right now until you give those guys a few years in the majors to see what they're capable of.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 12:44 PM) There is no use in arguing if you honestly believe that a 100% Schmidt is better than a 100% Contreras... Considering no-one in the majors has probably seen Contreras at 100%, that's a pretty unfair statement to make. And Schmidt's not at 100% at the moment.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 12:44 PM) Those are successful to you???? And yes, El Duque CAN be brought in because essentially, he took Shingo's spot. But El Duque was already with the team, it's not like he's a new addition or anything. You don't think Francisco was successful last season? He's was the Rangers freakin best set-up man. Morse has hit unbelievably in his start in the majors, Majewski's been a good reliever for the Nats, and Reed's been better than advertised defensively.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 12:39 PM) Because Shingo will be gone anyway. So basically it's Count/BMac for Schmidt/El Duque. BMac was less than spectacular in his performance in the bigs. Besides, when has a prospect KW traded become very successful and up to par with his expectation? And are you seriously comparing Schmidt to Nomo??? El Duque doesn't come into this because he was signed previously. And just because B-Mac who has half a season of experience above AA, doesn't come in and set the world on fire in the majors at a very young age, you want to trade him already? Oh and here are some prospects; Frankie Francisco Garry Majewski Jeremy Reed Mike Morse

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 12:36 PM) Are you high? The only reason his ERA is of that cliber is because one day he is great and the next three games he sucks ass. It balances out....hence, it is called Earned Run AVERAGE. The next 3 games!!??? Didn't 007 have a stat that said he'd only given up more than 4 runs only 4 times in all of his starts this season? How can it balance out, if you give up 1 ER in a start, than 6 in each of your next 3?