The Ultimate Champion

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jun 5, 2014 -> 03:59 PM) Wilder back in baseball? Wilder was into the other kind of beaver, that back beaver. Club BURN.

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Jun 5, 2014 -> 02:56 PM) If team's could buy draft picks, what would the number 1 pick be worth? 80 blowjobs and a new ipod full of rap music.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 5, 2014 -> 02:52 PM) So why? His main draw his his polish and "knowing how to pitch". Good 93-94 fastball, tops out at 97. 4 pitches for strikes. Just because he is 3 inches taller? Lefty? What is the reason why Nola is trash in your book but Aiken is a high reward guy? Better fastball, better secondary stuff, left-handed, and the greatest pitching coach in the world says that he's the best pitcher in the draft. Generally lefties with the same stuff as righties have higher ceilings. Q as a RHSP isn't the same thing, neither is Danks for that matter. Aiken has more ability than either of those guys. Also having Sale, Q, and Danks here to help him along would put him ahead of the curve. Also I never said Nola is trash. If we had a pick in the middle range I'd be with everyone else in hoping he fell to us. I don't want him at #3.

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jun 5, 2014 -> 02:48 PM) If Aiken and Rodon are off the board do you prefer Kolek, Nola or Jackson? I'd probably go with Jackson at that point. The highest rated position player in any given draft is almost always at least a MLB player. I'd be fine with Jackson but I think we'll pass on him and take a pitcher. I'd like him over Nola for sure. I would probably prefer Kolek though just because I think we really suck at developing hitters, and we'd probably screw him up and turn him into a late bloomer at best. I think taking Jackson is a great pick though.

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Jun 5, 2014 -> 02:44 PM) The number 3 pick is a top 5 pitcher? Your perception is all wrong. There isn't a team in the league that wouldn't draft a sure thing at #3. Quintana is a #2 type pitcher. He was a MiLB FA before he was a top MLB starter. Nola is NOT a sure thing. Anything but. Obviously if the Sox had a crystal ball things would be different. All they have is Buddy Bell, turn him over and shake him.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 5, 2014 -> 02:39 PM) Out of curiosity, do you like Aiken? He's my #1 now. I liked him before but he's Coop's pick, so I go with Coop.

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Jun 5, 2014 -> 02:32 PM) You probably wouldn't want Quintana either. At #3, no way! And that's the point, these guys you an find elsewhere. Let them fall into your lap. IIRC the Sox were the only team to offer him a 40-man roster spot. The scouting pays off on deals like this, but the #3 pick is more like a Tanaka situation than Quintana. Just think, for all the s*** people want to talk about Tyler Kolek today, if his name were Tylerio Kolekiedo freshly off his rattan raft trip from Cuba, my god at the amount of money people like Theo and so on would throw at him. I mean we're talking right now about a $5M+ slot bonus and in a little while we'll be throwing something like a coiuple million plus at some kid from the DR who doesn't even have his pubes yet. Perspective.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Jun 5, 2014 -> 02:24 PM) I'm sure it's been discussed A TON the last few months but I've kinda avoided all the talk because it's a discussion that I have no knowledge in, but why exactly can't Nola be a star? Perhaps I'm blinded by his numbers but a guy who goes 12-1 with a 1.47 era and a sub 1 whip in what looks like a pretty damn good SEC sounds like a player who could be a star.... Kevin Gausman is a top 20 prospect in the MLB, in their final seasons at LSU this is how they stack up... KG- 12-2 2.77 ERA 1.08 Whip 123 innings 135 Ks 28 Walks AN- 12-1 1.47 ERA 0.83 Whip 116 innings 134 Ks 27 Walks Those numbers are against a bunch of players of which the vast majority will never, ever, ever play in the big leagues. All of these top draft picks are men among boys on the fields they play on. That's been the case their entire lives. The stuff is what you look at. Just a quick google search, on Gausman: "Gausman, who is a lanky 6-foot-3 and 190 pounds, has a mid-90s fastball with movement (specifically in on righties) that can hit triple digits, a low-80s changeup (that’s a 15 mile per hour difference relative to his fastball) with a sharp downward drop, and a mid-80s slider that also misses bats. As those five walks indicate, he has complete control of all three pitches and challenges hitters in the zone, working primarily in the lower half. He has also received high marks for mixing his pitches well and for his overall mound demeanor." If Nola sounded like that I wouldn't be against the pick at all.

QUOTE (Andy the Clown @ Jun 5, 2014 -> 02:08 PM) In the first round, you're supposed to draft guys that could be stars. Nola will never be a star. Why waste the pick? You can get low ceiling college arms later in the draft. I pretty much agree with this, I'd say more likely mid-rotation ceiling with everyone currently overvaluing his stuff and overhyping his ceiling as a "2" assuming he will be an overachiever. But IMO you never call someone a 2 unless you think he's an overachieving 3 or an underachieving ace. And since he's an overachiever calling him a 2 is a blatant admission that his stuff is capped around a #3, and Kolek's is capped at a true ace. I'd like a RH ace in between Sale and Q but I'm too a-scared we'll take Nola if he's there. Hoping for Rodon or Aiken to fall to us.

QUOTE (Feeky Magee @ Jun 5, 2014 -> 02:09 PM) I misread, thought you had Aiken in Miami's choices Either way, I think all this chat is deemed irrelevant by the Astros taking Aiken 1-1 I agree, I think if the Astros go Aiken I'm going to be a saaaad panda I'd much rather see Kolek as an ace for the Twins than the Cubs, because I at least respect the Twins organization & their fans are smarter.

To me it sounds like we're probably: Aiken Rodon Kolek or Nola, weighing this one. If that's the case then we're getting a lefty should anyone else sneak in 1 or 2. That hinges on the Astros then because if they go Rodon we could still get Aiken, but if they go Aiken we'll have to hope the Marlins pass on the obvious fit in Rodon, and that just seems unlikely. I don't want Nola so I hope the Astros take anyone but Aiken at #1.

QUOTE (Feeky Magee @ Jun 5, 2014 -> 01:43 PM) Err... What do you not get? If the Marlins choice is between a guy who is there and a guy who is not there, then they will obviously pick the guy who is there. If it's Rodon vs. Aiken for Houston and Rodon and Jackson for the Marlins, then a selection of Rodon by the Astros (assuming 50/50) leaves Aiken to us. The Marlins draft board is going to be set by now in all likelihood. If it goes Rodon/Jackson or Jackson/Rodon 1/2 then as long as HOU takes Rodon, Aiken will be ours.

Let's say this is the scenario: Houston wants one of the lefties. They like Aiken a little bit better, bu they just called up Singleton, Springer, etc. they signed Feldman, the on-field product has gotten a ton better. AND they think Rodon is an ace. Well, they just can't take the chance on a high school arm, so they take Rodon because they think they can make for an interesting 2015 team and they think they're a 2016 contender at the latest. Then with Miami, they *really* want a hitter, and Jackson is their guy. BUT they just can't pass on the kid of Cuban heritage to go along with their other kid of Cuban heritage at the top of their rotation. They want a hitter and there's no reason in their mind to take a high school pitcher when they have more than enough pitching as it is, but they just CAN'T pass on Rodon. No way. If this happens Aiken is our pick. Now that I've thought about it a bit, I think this may actually happen. Astros will want to contend, Marlins need the hitter and Rodon being gone makes it an easy choice. Nola to the Cubs and Kolek to the Twins. Does anyone REALLY believe that if Aiken does fall to us the Sox will pick anyone else, no matter who is left on the board? Aiken's Coop's guy, if he's there then he's ours.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 5, 2014 -> 01:25 PM) But the odds of all that happening have to be less than 1 in 5. Sounds pretty realistic to me. If the choice with Houston is Rodon vs. Aiken 50/50 and Marlins have it 50/50 Jackson vs. Rodon then there's a 50% chance (in a vacuum) that Aiken falls to us.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 5, 2014 -> 01:19 PM) Is Wacha considered an ace? Nola sounds like the closest thing to a Wacha type in this draft. Nola may not have the ace ceiling, but he probably has the lowest chance at busting. I prefer Aiken, Rodon, and Jackson to him, and really Hoffman too on a steep discount, but Kolek seems too much in the Broxton/Bobby Jenks mold that I am not sure he would be a better pick. The baseball draft is really a crapshoot. I am for drafting which ever guy allows you to be more aggressive in pursuing lottery tickets later in the draft instead of rolling the dice on one high upside guy and then having to pinch pennies on org players in the rest of the top 10. I thought the same until someone posted about the 90% rule where you are forced to offer at least 90% slot or you lose the pick. I didn't know that, I was thinking of how awesome it could be if you picked up Hoffman for $2M or so and put another $3.5M into overslot guys, but since you can't do that, I don't think going underslot for someone who is not BPA would really help all that much. Saving $500K or so and redistributing it isn't going to convince any kid with a strong commitment to sign. Just not worth it.

Aiken Kolek/Rodon: Kolek much easier sign probably, Rodon quick mover but Borass might play games with us Jackson

There's actually Round 1, a comp Round, 2 comp balance rounds A & B, plus Round 2 IIRC. That would be 5 rounds. But we just get 2 picks. Edit actually I think the comp b is between 2 and 3, that would be tomorrow if the case.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Jun 5, 2014 -> 12:09 PM) Seems like one of those things that the Sox seem to be better at teaching than most as well. Even though he's a high schooler, Kolek seems like the perfect guy for the Sox coaches to get a hand on. The fact that he hasn't been going crazy with the breaking balls is a good sign as well. He throws a slide and a curve that both flash plus, so the ability is there, make sure you get him throwing those things on op of the ball and doing it the right way, while focusing on control. You might have a guy that has it "click" for him in the next year and a half or so, and at that point he'll have nothing to prove in the minors. Just because he's a high schooler doesn't mean he's 4-5 years away and just because he throws hard doesn't mean he's a ticking time bomb either. I'd love for arguably the best pure arm in the draft to fall to #3 with the Sox taking full advantage. If you're not afraid to take Sale or Danish then you shouldn't be afraid to take Kolek. In this draft there are 3 potential true aces at the top and the Sox are fortunate to be in position to get at least one of them. They should do that.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 5, 2014 -> 11:34 AM) Whoever the Sox select first, it will be the player they have been targeting all along, and they will be in disbelief that the player they select with their second choice slipped to them. This exactly.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 5, 2014 -> 11:24 AM) #3 Overall picks since 2000 2000 - Luis Montanez - SS - HS - Cubs - ML utility player 2001 - Dewon Brazelton - RHP - MTSU - TB - Marginal reliever 2002 - Christopher Gruler - RHP - HS - Reds - Never made it past A- 2003 - Kyle Sleeth - RHP - Wake Forest - Tigers - Never made it past AA 2004 - Phillip Humber - RHP - Rice - Mets - ML 5th starter 2005 - Jeff Clement - C - USC - Mariners - AAAA player 2006 - Evan Longoria - 3B - CSLB - TB - Perennial All-Star 2007 - Josh Vitters - 3B - HS - Cubs - Turbulent career, hitting .208 in AAA this season 2008 - Eric Hosmer - 1B - HS - Royals - Up and down, looks to be at least a ML regular going forward 2009 - Donovan Tate - CF - HS - Padres - Out of baseball 2010 - Manny Machado - SS - HS - Orioles - At least ML regular, probably perennial All-Star 2011 - Trevor Bauer - RHP - UCLA - Dbacks - In his third stint on a ML roster, though it likes he might stick this time 2012 - Mike Zunino - C - Florida - Mariners - ML regular 2013 - Jon Gray - RHP - Oklahoma - Rockies - On his way to a September call-up, career is still a ? Not a great track record. If you can make a deal and get someone that you know can help and get another guy with the second round that has big upside, you have to at least consider it. Nola is what most people hope Danish's ceiling is. I prefer Jackson to any of them at this point as the system has a real need for someone with bat to ball skills, especially if he can play C or 3B. I don't think this argument says anything. Whoever you're picking at 3, whether it is Nola or Kolek, is going to have a chance at busting on you. That's why you take the best player/most talent/highest upside. And whoever you get in the second round isn't going to be rated as better than either of these guys, so I think that's just a poor thought process. Whoever is left when you're picking second, take the best guy - and hell, don't even worry that much about signability because you'll get that pick back anyway if the player doesn't sign. Then you just have a higher pool next year to help balance out your lower draft position. We're looking more like a team drafting in the middle of the pack next year as it is. Edit: what I mean is that you don't "know" Nola can help any more than you "knew" Broadway was going to make it or you "knew" Erik Johnson was going to become a stalwart in our rotation. The Sox "know" nothing really, they can only observe the present as it is playing out. And here in the now Kolek is the better arm that you'd send to Kannapolis while Nola is the strike thrower that would start in High-A and maybe finish the year with a few innings for Birmingham.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Jun 5, 2014 -> 11:15 AM) Free fall to our 2nd pick. I'm half kidding but reminds me of what Buddy Bell said last week. With the second pick they were targeting a couple pitchers that everyone had pegged as 1st rounders but could very well fall draft day. We will draft Kolek at 90% slot and then take Hoffman in the second round with the leftover bonus going to Hoffman as well as 10% of our Round 3 pitcher who will also be awesome. And then we will win. Everything.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 5, 2014 -> 11:11 AM) Felix Hernandez has (arguably) been the best pitcher in the majors this year. He's at 90-93 with his fastball. You need velocity with regards to pitching in the same sense that you need arms with regards to pitching - there has to be SOMETHING there for effectiveness - but once it's at sufficient level, movement and command is far more important than pure velocity. Agree. But Felix had a much bigger FB earlier in his career along with multiple terrific secondary offerings and has become more of a pitcher than anything else. All that experience counts too. Neither Kolek nor Nola have anything on King Felix, but Kolek has a shot at being at least close, while Nola has none whatsoever. I'm not saying Nola can't be effective. I'm syaing this is the #3 pick we're talking about here. And let's not sit here and pretend as though Nola is a sure thing. Look at Appel, my how long it has been since he was drafted. This kid might a complete and total bust 1 and a half years from now while at the same time Kolek on another team is a consensus top-3-5 prospect in all of baseball. Nola has every bit as much a chance at busting then anyone else. Hell, look at Erik Johnson. Anyone see that coming? I didn't, I thought he'd be our guy between Q and Danks. Nope.

QUOTE (southside hitman @ Jun 5, 2014 -> 11:08 AM) Tyler Danish tops out at 90 MPH and is our top pitching prospect currently. Currently my favorite Sox pitching prospect. Taken in the second round, IIRC more towards the middle of the second round. Not #3. And a lot of people still don't want to call him more than a back-end starter.

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Jun 5, 2014 -> 10:55 AM) It's probably because Stone isn't a loudmouth idiot. Anyway, it still blows my mind with how infatuated people are with velocity. Movement and control have always, and will always, be more important than velocity. No that is not the case. Movement and control ADDED to velocity is always more important. In the Major Leagues you have to pitch off your fastball and then after that usually is the change. That's why Nola is the safer pick. But if you develop the guy that can work in the mid to high 90's with a plus slider or curveball then instead of the opposing offense having to force their opportunities by putting the bat on the ball they're in the dugout praying for rain.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 5, 2014 -> 10:45 AM) I don't think there are many pitchers with mid-90's stuff and his reported command. Usually the "impeccable" control guys sit around 90-92. According to Perfect Game, that's exactly what he is. http://www.perfectgame.org/Articles/View.aspx?article=9818 Edit: we should expect Nola to touch 95 as much as we should expect Kolek to touch 102. Nola is a low-90s guy with great command of the fastball and change. Kolek draws comps to Nolan Ryan and Kerry Wood. If you're a-scared, buy a dog. Then you take Kolek.