The Ultimate Champion

I have no problem with signing the guy, in fact I hope we do, and whatever bonus money we have left, we might as well use it all. However I think it's pretty short sighted at best to play hardball with Rodon over some 14th round kid that's probably going to shred his arm before he sees the Major Leagues. In a perfect world we get Rodon in here quickly, Danks and so on rub off on him, and he ditches Borass before the extension talks kick in. Show the kid his respect and get the deal done. The Astros set the bar with Aiken, nobody else is getting more than him, so give Rodon a tick above Aiken, tell him he's the best, then put a uniform on him and send him out there to earn it. And forget about De Oca, if there's money left and he'll take it, great, if not, oh well.

QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Jun 10, 2014 -> 05:33 PM) Would you trade Leury Garcia for Matt Kemp? The other way of saying this would be "would you take on Matt Kemp's massive contract and with the return being negligible?" And I don't know, the guy is owed a lot of money but if the Sox felt they could keep him healthy & that he'd be worth the deal then maybe. I think it would be dumb but he does has superstar talent. I think I see what you are trying to do though, and it's absurd to compare 2.5 years of Alex Rios one of which is an option, and a total of $12.5M guaranteed plus the remainder of his 2013 salary after the Sox sent $1M to a guy who is guaranteed $107M plus the remainder of his $21M 2014 salary through 2019. That's fine though, because any argument that says we got a solid return for Alex holds no water & therefore absurdity must be thrown in for the argument to continue in circles.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 10, 2014 -> 03:04 PM) No way. He either gets above slot money or he gets the fast track. Absolutely no reason to give him both. Considering the way he was used this season, I imagine that his workload will be relatively light the rest of the year. They may pitch him a couple innings out of the bullpen every fifth day to keep him on schedule and limit his innings. There is no reason to start his arb clock and go over slot in the same deal as that will cost the Sox a lot more money down the road if Rodon meets his potential. I think the goal should be to have him ready for opening day 2016 so that the Sox can control his rights through their window of contention in 2016-2019. Its either $5.5M and a callup or $6M+ and you keep him in the minors until he is ready. Getting him to go underslot at $5.5 likely allows you to sign BODM which is probably worth letting Rodon getting to arbitration a year earlier. Who cares how much money we give him as long as the Sox get their guy soon & don't lose a pick? BODM is getting vastly overrated here thanks to a weak draft after the second round. Think about this, both Javy Guerra and Maikel Cleto have SU/CL stuff but with other issues too, they were free via waivers. There are always going to be big arms who need a lot of work available. The guy isn't even worth considering in the Rodon signability stuff, I mean, there is a reason he went until the 14th round. Just off our own recent history we've DFAd the likes of Jhan Marinez, Clevelan Santeliz, Gregory Infante, etc. all of whom at one time were considered legitimate RP prospects with great arms. I know Santeliz made AAA and the other 2 actually got to pitch in the majors. Letting de Oca go isn't really an issue, if he signs great, if not whatever. But you don't screw around with Rodon over that guy. You can always find these kinds of arms. Basically if the Sox give the kid $500K and pay for his schooling they are doing him a massive favor that could provide for him a career playing baseball. If he says no thank you and wants to gamble that much then good luck kid.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 10, 2014 -> 04:55 PM) BJ Upton for Leury Garcia (I want to note that I do not approve of the above trade for any number of reasons, but to suggest that BJ Upton is not a 2-5 WAR player who would help the White Sox win ball games is false) I wouldn't object to BJ Upton, however he's been dead for 2 years now and his corpse has put up a -1.0 WAR since it signed with ATL. Not sure I want that.

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jun 10, 2014 -> 04:10 PM) It's a rebuilding year. It has been since June of last year. Just keep repeating that. That money saved help free up money for Abreu and the Quintana extension. You're missing the point: Chicago needed more payroll space more than they needed an overpaid average starter. There are no tanks in Baghdad!

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Jun 10, 2014 -> 02:39 PM) So, you offer the minimum 90% to some guys you think won't take it and that you're not so crazy about anyway IF you think you can sign BMDO. But the numbers are appreciated. Bryant signed at slot - the northsiders called his bluff, it can be done. There's a reason why we drafted him, and Soxtalk has been pleasantly surprised by recent past signings if memory serves. I think the de Oca thing is the Sox placing value on him that is very different from the value he and his agent have in mind. The Sox have a ton of leverage there and someone like him has a whole lot to lose in passing that offer up. If as other have stated, the Sox offer him a full ride later on if things don't work out with baseball, then going ahead and passing on whatever it is they offer you could be the difference between a MLB career, however long or short that may be, and some guy that is toast before he's next eligible for the draft. De Oca is the complete ass opposite of the rest of these "I'll take my chances later" guys like Weisenberg and so on.

The info on the bigger names like Adams, and maybe him exclusively, should become public as far as signing bonuses go. But for the other guys, unless the Sox are forced to acknowledge their signing amounts, there is no reason for them to say anything about amount. No need for Borass to know how much of their pool is remaining after the other players sign, because if he knows what that figure is there is always the chance he'll be a cockwad and demand that exact figure plus the max overage amount and then threaten to go down to the deadline for it just because he knows that with the Sox Rodon will be on the fast track anyway. *Edit: I edited the s*** out of this post because it made no f***ing sense at all. Thank you come again.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Jun 10, 2014 -> 02:12 PM) The offer of a fast track should really trump a few hundred grand or even a few million, imo. The delays anywhere else could be significant, on top of the extra year. I can't envision a universe where these added risks outweigh the benefits we can offer. He has no (intelligent) leverage vs. this situation, imo - don't cave needlessly. Yeah MLB service time = closer to arb, closer to pension, use of an option year, etc. There's so much value there. MLB experience is a huge thing, and getting to break in as a reliever rather than "develop" against minor leaguers where you are accruing zero benefits... just huge. What if he gets hurt? If he's on the MLB roster & he goes down he uses an option year and is closer to gaining player rights (right to decline assignments, FA, etc.) but a major injury while not on the 40 and the team can keep your control for several year (3 season IIRC) without having to even add you to the roster. Huge benefits in the fast track. Borass may be an asshole but he's certainly aware of this stuff, that's why for years his "fall" guys like Maybin and Miller who netted Miggy got MLB contracts out of the draft.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 10, 2014 -> 02:12 PM) It's possible it will be that high but I don't think it will be quite there. He would need to be called up before Sept 1. to get the arb clock moving. This would be what may entice Boras to sign at a lower number. I'm not sure about that. You sure? MLB time goes by days on the active roster, I'm not sure there are any freebies. I think the rule there is playoff eligibility, i.e. you can't play in the playoffs unless you are on the roster by Aug 31.

QUOTE (Soxfest @ Jun 10, 2014 -> 02:09 PM) I am hoping 6.3M will get deal done with September bullpen call up. I think that is very fair for Bor-ASS and Rodon. Yeah $6.3M is enough, but I'm guessing he wants that respect. Just give it to him to get him here quickly, don't concern yourself with trying to afford the 2 TJ guy with s***ty mechanics and a reliever ceiling. Sox would have drafted better guys later if they felt they could get Rodon cheaply, but my guess is they drafted the way they did because they knew they were going to have to pay Rodon and weren't going to be upset about it either.

^That said, none of this applies to the negotiations with Rodon. There's a pretty clear ceiling and trying to argue over another mil or two is pointless in the lond wrong, he should want to start the clock. If Borass believes his guy is an ace then he's looking at the arb paydays, not the signing bonus.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Jun 10, 2014 -> 02:04 PM) No it's about the client. He's not smelling so sweet after the Drew, Morales debacles either. He's f***ed up a lot over the past several years, cost his clients lots of money trying to get teams to pay above average players like superstars. Even the second ARod deal IIRC he f***ed up, and the Yankees were willing to go crazy on that. I believe ARod had to reign in those negotiations himself and he STILL got the Yanks to bid against themselves and hand out what would become the worst contract in NY Yankee history.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 10, 2014 -> 02:02 PM) I don't think that will happen. I'm guessing close to the 6.5 million that Aiken got, Maybe 6.25-6.3 I think it's $6.6 - 6.7M. Sox cap it around there & say "Okay we'll pay you as the best player in the draft, now sign & if you do well you'll see the bigs this year and start your clock." And that will be too good to pass up, because taking it all the way to the deadline makes it harder to get more than a couple MLB appearances before the end of the year. As it is, he signs quick, maybe he's here Sept. 1 after rosters expand. That's a whole month plus probably of MLB time & experience.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 10, 2014 -> 11:57 AM) Semantics, but I'd say he's a 2-5 WAR player. Still, the point remains valid. Great so let's see Hahn go ahead and trade Leury Garcia for a 2-5 WAR player that can help us in the OF, rotation, bullpen, or as a starter in the IF. Seriously, let's see him do that. Seriously. Do it. Now.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jun 10, 2014 -> 11:30 AM) No use in looking at a move that turned out pretty good for us. We got Leury Garcia.

Also in in 2-4 range, it's not set in stone yet. Yes, I'd rather have Rodon of the 3, but Kolek and Schwarber could all turn out to be better players in the end. I'm very happy we got our guy, but it's not like we can sit here and say the future would be bleak had that not happen. Maybe our future is even better with Kolek, Schwarber, Jackson, etc. There's just so many things we don't know. We do know however that Hahn got hosed.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 10, 2014 -> 11:00 AM) I'll restate it simply. Rios (with the Rangers) and Garcia (with the White Sox) were essentially the same player, OPS-wise. Because Rios had 16/17 steals, and is a better defender (although we saw a TON of lapses out of him in 2013, although not quite like 2009/2011)...that trade was significant enough to shift the balance in the standings enough so that the White Sox finished with the 3rd pick overall and took Rodon, while the Cubs finished at 66-96. To summarize, if Rios wasn't traded, the argument goes...we would have won 66 or 67 games (a 3-4 game improvement) over 63-99 and ended up with Kyle Schwarber as the #4 draft pick instead of Rodon at 3. Okay I think I get this. But IMO, the reality of it all is that there are sooooooo many variables involved, and the team itself was soooooo bad, that you can't reasonably make any assumption whatsoever with regard to the record had Rios stayed here. Maybe we're even worse and we get the second pick, and we come away convinced that we're lucky to have Rodon because the Marlins surely would have taken him if there (even though we know that's not the case). Maybe we're better and we end up 4th with as you say, the Cubs taking Rodon. I think the reality also is that you could have things go exactly as they did, with Rios getting traded and Avisail taking his place, and then simulate/replay the remaining games 10 different times, and you still get a range of outcomes that has us losing somewhere between 96-102 ballgames. Because that's just how bad we were. Saying we came out ahead for trading Alex is a massive assumption IMO. All I think we can look at is that, 1) the Sox reasoning was bulls***, 2) the Rangers got a steal there. We trade Leury straight-up now we're probably looking at a quality MR or something, not a Rios-quality player by any means. The value of a UT player just isn't that high, and post steriod era, the type of all-around production a player like Rios offers is more valuable than it used to be. BTW he's hitting .335/.367/.492/.859 so far this year. Totally underwhleming return for us no matter how you slice it.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 10, 2014 -> 10:47 AM) And even though Alex Rios had a worse OPS than Avisail Garcia, it still means a 3-4 swing in the standings over just 48 games, since the Cubs won 66? Wow. If Rios is so great that he can make up that much of a difference in the standings in 7 weeks, then why would they have traded him in the first place? I wish I had the mental capacity to figure out what your point is here. I'm not saying you don't have a point, just that I'm just a little sad thatt my brain does not possess the processing power necessary to find it.

I get both sides of the Rios salary dump thing. First off, that deal was definitely, 100% a salary dump and that's that. Leury Garcia is not the return you ask for in exchange for that caliber of player. Leury is useful, but you need more than that. Secondly, the Sox are the ones that put it out there that they needed money for Abreu. I agree with those that are calling bulls*** on this, but still, can't blame posters for taking the Sox word at face value. Truth is, the Sox bulls*** about money all the time, always have and always will, and you really don't know what they're going to do. They will have it, but will they spend it? Who knows. Lastly, haven't read these last couple pages of this thread, but there is not one single player on the team ATM that you HAVE to dump. Danks is the closest, but let's see how he does this year first. If he looks like one of the seemingly many pitchers who have become better "pitchers" after diminished stuff, then he still brings you back a piece you will care about. If you trade Beckham, Alexei, a starter, one of our better relievers, etc. the returns on all of those deals should be far better than the one we got out of Rios. With Dunn and DeAza it doesn't matter, a Leury return there is probably even asking too much, but aside from getting someone to handle our junk, any trade discussion centering around a Leury-quality player is a total non-starter, and you hang up the phone on that GM but only after telling him to suck your balls. JMO.

Getting Adams signed to slot was a real coup though. Hopefully we get something done with Rodon relatively soon. I'm not sure there's any real "must have" overslot guy in this entire draft aside from Rodon, and that's probably by design. The Rodon bonus buffer zone.

If we can sign de Oca great, but reading on him going into the second day, I really didn't want him at all & there were a bunch of other players out there I'd have rather had. My immediate thoughts were Joba Chamberlain best case, which really isn't anything super exciting even though quality SU guys are great to have. I'm not going to care much if we don't sign this guy but if we do, maybe he's at least trade bait. Just seems like a guy who has about 90% bust potential or better and even if it works out then he's just a reliever. But hey, if he'll take $500K or whatever we can muster up, go for it. Maybe he moves quick & hits the AA level sometime next season.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jun 9, 2014 -> 02:43 PM) The need to scapegoat courses through the veins of Soxtalk. No you're thinking of Hulkamania and that has nothing to do with goats. I thought this was a real promotion, but I'm guessing by the reactions it is not. Of course it wouldn't be, why would Brooks Boyer ever have a good idea?

Okay so I call the AAP on Peter when we sign this kid. Never had one before but I would like to help Peter rise up through the rankings. As someone who comes so hard off the mound, I assume the balls really explode out of this hand, all the 1B sees is a streak of white. I bet he can go deep in the hole or come in on the grass very easily. Also interested in seeing what this guys stroke looks like & how long or short it is & whether he projects to gain size later on. I mean if he can stay at SS that's great but if he gets a little thick for the position he may actually look better in the box. So yeah this guy is mine. Time for Peter's John Hancock. I bet he starts with the Dash, perfect logo for him.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jun 8, 2014 -> 10:33 AM) That was two years ago, Balta. Ventura has earned Sale's trust over that time. You're getting trolled. You should have just ignored that one.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jun 8, 2014 -> 10:26 AM) Ever think part of the reason Sale is honest about soreness and such is because he trusts Ventura? He trusts him because he'll let him do things like pitch the 8th and face Trout. Yes, it was a bad loss, but it's far better than having Sale losing that trust in Ventura. As far as the team goes there's no way they should be where they are given the talent Ventura was handed. He has done a remarkable job. Yeah it's hard to disagree with this. I don't like Ventura's game management but you have to admit, given the talent level, given all the injuries, given the need to hit the minor leagues and the waiver wire very early and often, at bare minimum you have to say that the players this year have responded and the players will shown they will play for Robin and the rest of the coaching staff. About the trust thing too, I was thinking earlier about the "what does Robin do?" question, and maybe it's just more of a feeling/timing thing. Like, now is the time we say this, or drill that, etc. knowing the right way to balance out a clubhouse ego while providing instruction. I.E. here is how we go about this demotion or this trade or call-up, or this benching etc. without alienating the vets ala Bobby Valentine and while still maintaining a corrective/instructional type of approach that is necessary to bring the young guys along.