The Ultimate Champion

BTW I'm not trying to turn this into a rip Hahn thread, Hahn has done a good job and his drafts look good so far as well. But to give him a free pass on everything and try to argue that KW was a bad GM... it shows complete lack of knowledge. Really, nothing less than that. If you think Kenny was a bad GM who made bad moves and prevented us from contending then either you weren't paying attention or you just don't know baseball. The 2004 deadline through the offseason was the most exicting offseason in Sox history, just a massive amount of heavy lifting. Kenny hit it out of the park after 2005, bringing in Thome, Vazquez, loading the bench, etc. but the bullpen imploded and that team just underachieved despite winning 90 games in what was the best division in baseball. His 2007 pen blew up too and he patched that temporarily with one good signing in Dotel and a bad one in Linebrink, but he made a lot of other moves too. And his 2011 "all in" team was loaded on paper but garbage on the field. He tried. But he wasn't able to fire Walker, to fire Ozzie, he was apparently overruled or asked to give in re: the brilliant Mark Kotsay DH experiment, etc. Kenny was a very good GM & if Hahn is equally as good we will be in a good spot. Hahn right now is in a different mode (rebuilding) and playing under the different rules of the new CBA. They're not the same thing, but Hahn like KW is going to make both good moves and bad moves. The more he trades unproven prospects for MLB proven players like Kenny the better he will be. The main advantage with Hahn will be the farm system, with the new CBA providing a huge new way of boosting spending and also with the Wilder scandal in the rearview mirror it's another big boost for him.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 19, 2014 -> 05:01 PM) Compare the team from Opening Day last year to the current personnel in the organization and tell me how much of that Williams would have done. I'd give you Abreu and that's about it. More bulls*** from wite, as usual. As iamshack said, he would have been making moves as well. And go ahead and compare the rosters, it's pretty much Kenny Williams era stuff, including Sale, Quintana, Viciedo, Reed, Alexei, Danks, Floyd, etc. but also Dunn. Main difference was Gillaspie/Keppinger at 3B. Since then Hahn has made 3 significant trades (Reed, Peavy, Santiago) and one significant signing. He's brought in relievers and other stuff via FA and the waiver wire mainly, mostly the exact type of player KW would have gone after, big arms, ceiling, sinkerballers, etc. You're just full of bulls*** though. Compare what Kenny did after the 2007 season and you tell me what Hahn would have done. Kenny signed Alexei, traded Chris Carter for Quentin who was on his way to an MVP before the wrist injury, he had acquired both Gavin Floyd and John Danks the year before via trade, traded for Nick Swisher which didn't work out but was a big move at the time, etc. So what does Hahn do there, you tell me?

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jun 19, 2014 -> 02:10 PM) Look at the roster in 2013 and then look at it again in 2014. In 12 months, Hahn took a moribund, aging team that was 30+ games under .500 and brought in enough talent (and young, cheap talent at that) to turn them essentially from awful to mediocre. That's a pretty damn good job. If his only mistakes are trading a 1 WAR "closer" for a top 100 prospect that didn't pan out and Keppinger -- then that's pretty damn good. Ha. 2013 had Viciedo and Gillaspie on it, as well as Sale and Quintana. Webb made his debut, so did Johnson who blew up in our faces but was considered part of this youthful revolution. Nate Jones was being groomed for the closers role, Petricka also debuted last year, our biggest trade acquisition came in July in the form of Avisail Garcia, etc. The 2014 team was pretty much already there in 2013. Hahn traded for Eaton, Davidson, and brought in Abreu. Kenny would have signed Abreu himself and probably would have been interested in Eaton as well, with all that "football mentality" and "Chicago toughness" Erstadian bulls***. Hahn made 3 big moves, one of which failed, one which has been okay, and the other turned out great - but let's not act as though Kenny would have shunned Abreu or that the Astros, Red Sox, and several other teams weren't also throwing lots of money at him. So yeah Hahn really did not do what you say he did. The extensions, the signing of Abreu, and personnel changes mainly bringing in Steverson, that's all Hahn. Also I am not sure why you put the word closer in quotes, as if Reed doesn't actually perform well enough to do that job. He's not elite, but you don't have to be elite to have value to a team.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jun 19, 2014 -> 02:11 PM) I agree they should have moved Floyd, but he didnt let Crain get hurt. The guy came out of spring training twice with shoulder issues related to a shoulder surgery he had a while ago. Thornton was at the end of the rope, he was having trouble getting lefties out anymore. It wasnt like both of those players were at their peak and the package wasnt desirable. Floyd, they sat on him for 2 seasons too long I agree, but if we're judging everything in hindsight here re: KW but ignoring any of the "misses" or potential misses by Hahn, that's not exactly a fair comparison. As has been stated 4,324,124 times already on this board, of all the prospects Kenny traded, who are we really missing? Gio. One. Oh wow. When you trade unproven prospects for proven MLB players you're going to win those deals more often than not, and when you're the one trading the proven MLB producers for prospects, like Hahn is now, chances are most of the players you acquire aren't going to become what you thought they would be. That's just the nature of the game. Hahn's made some moves that will look very bad very soon, and he'll make more bad moves too, but once we're a contender again he'll start making better moves, and then just like with Kenny, the majority of this board will hate him for it and call for his head.

Monkeyfarts

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 19, 2014 -> 04:06 PM) I'm not sure Hahn wants to go down that route, because you run the risk of him being so good and the team being in contention next year...so the fanbase would go crazy if you missed the shot at the playoffs, but equally hold it against Reinsdorf for dealing him at the same time. It's kind of a no-win situation, where it can end up like Edwin Jackson being dumped for less than value or you are forced to hold onto him and be "all in" like Dayton Moore and the Royals essentially are with James Shields. We got excellent value for Edwin Jackson. The only problem was that Stewart busted. If you look at the Reed trade a year from now you might say we dumped Reed off on AZ for a bag of balls, but really we got really good value at the time. The Royals are just stupid. They aren't "forced" to hang onto anyone. They brought in Shields and Ervin Santana, signed Guthrie, and really haven't done s*** since then. They gave a bunch of money to Omar Infante and Jason Vargas, oh wow big money players those guys are. They're a lucky team right now but they've botched their opportunities 2 straight years now. Chances are their division hopes are gone first week of September and they're a couple games from the wildcard when it's all over. Then Shields leaves, and they'll be thinking about dumping Billy Butler and "rebuilding" again because they are a franchise full of quitters and losers too stupid and afraid to make a big play for the playoffs, and also their owner is a clown.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 19, 2014 -> 02:59 PM) They're not going to trade Price for that package anyway, so forget it. Remember, they have to replace Ben Zobrist, potentially. If you combined Leury, Carlos Sanchez, Micah Johnson and Semien into one player, you would have the value (of one Zobrist), but we don't unfortunately don't have the option of doing that. The likes of Micah Johnson and Beck as the centerpiece of a trade...not happening. Now if it's Tim Anderson being offered, Friedman will start to consider it, depending on the 2nd and 3rd pieces. Friedman, in the end, doesn't become one of the top 2-3 GM's in baseball by making stupid trades. He knows exactly what he wants for Price. If you combined Micah's offensive game with Leury's defensive profile you'd have one of the more exciting prospects in all of baseball and a player with a lot more overall ability than Ben Zobrist has ever had. We'd have a true lead-off hitting high defensive value starting SS, i.e. more like a young Jimmy Rollins or something, not Zobrist. I think you are vastly underrating Micah Johnson and really so is the rest of this board. But still, for David Price? Yes I do that, and I flip Price later, and no, that isn't happening because Jim Bowden doesn't run a baseball team anymore. Now re: a Micah trade, if you're bringing in someone's top prospect RHSP or something like that, someone who the Sox feel has the ability to step into the rotation as a September callup ala Erik Johnson last year but with a much higher ceiling than Johnson, then sure, think about trading Micah then. But you'd need something back that made sense and it would have to be a good player. Micah seems to be the antithesis of the low baseball IQ K machine me first swing-and-miss BustOMania s***spects we've amassed over the years. This guy actually looks like he has the floor of a Major League player. His ceiling is a long-term option and true lead-off type. You don't give him away.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jun 19, 2014 -> 02:13 PM) TB is not trading him for 1/2 his value. Obviously. The point is, if someone offers Hahn a stupid deal that favors the Sox he should make it. TB is not going to do that.

Also Hahn may hvae very well dumped Reed for nothing just like Kenny dumped Santos for nothing. Kenny had Teahen, Hahn had Keppinger, salarywise pretty much the same. Kenny didn't trade a couple vets when it was time, Hahn let Floyd and Crain get hurt, got basically nothing out of Thornton, etc. Hahn isn't some savior or anything. He's been aggressive but the biggest moves he's made were 2 extensions to players who already got her on KW's watch and a free agent signing out of Cuba. The Peavy deal we will have to wait on.

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jun 19, 2014 -> 01:36 PM) I agree that's as of now the Sox don't really have any better options. We had so many holes coming into this year that Hahn (imo) did a masterful job this offseason fillign as many as possible. Eaton and Abreu and Avy (in his very limited run so far in MLB) look like three legit starters and obviously Abreu looks more than that. Now we just have a hole in LF, DH and C. Gillaspie, Abreu, Eaton and Avy has drastically upgraded the position player talent. Good job to Hahn. Hate to say because he did a lot of good but KW's doubling down for the 3rd straight year in 2012 set this team up for disaster. Hahn has righted the ship, soon we'll be sailing again imo. What are you talking about? The Sox cut payroll and put a bunch of young guys on the roster that year. It was only 2 seasons ago you should be able to remember that.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 19, 2014 -> 01:12 PM) Why would that be a good deal unless we were getting a negotiation window to ensure a long-term contract extension, like the Garcia move in 2004? We could get more than that in the offseason, silly. Would you purchase a big time asset at 50% of its value to turn around and sell to the highest bidder 5 months later? Umm, yes....

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jun 19, 2014 -> 01:04 PM) The problem in this scenario is that Viciedo does not hit enough to be a DH. Right now he's a 4th OF you start against LHP. That's it. That's all he probably ever will be. If anything, the path to DH is now clear for Abreu. Viciedo has the ability to be a s*** ton more than that. Will he? Who knows, but he's still young enough to get there in theory. No way do you move Abreu to DH unless you just get a f***en monster at 1B who is even better than him. Moving Abreu to DH and then bringing in Casey Krothman or some ballsucker like that is disrespectful to our superstar and probably not a good baseball move either.

Hey if someone wants to do the Haren deal for Q then I do it. But no, dumping him for s*** is not a good idea. Not that all the Ms players are s*** or anything but given the amount of $$$, quality, youth, the fact that he can pitch just fine in a hitters park in the AL, etc. you ask for a ton & maybe you throw him out there as a counter to Price. But only for a major haul, and I'd rather go quantity of quality Vs. 3 players headlined by some prospect who everyone loves now but who in the end is probably way overhyped.

Oh also yes I would trade Micah Johnson, Beck, and a bag of balls for David Price. That would be a very nice deal for us and also 4 other teams in the AL East.

Both the Padres & DBacks could be looking at major internal changes. If one of Byrnes/Towers goes, given how much we LOVE to deal with those two franchises, I propose the hiring of Jim Bowden to fill that vacancy. That would be so awesome for us I swear I'd cry.

I'd like to dump off Dunn & DeAza first, open up 2 spots, move Viciedo to DH permanently, and fill LF internally with Semien first (why not? let him get the PA) and maybe Micah Johnson later, and with RF going to Moises Sierra/Jordan Danks platoon temporarily with the idea being to acquire someone else's bust/reclamation project as part of another deal or in exchange for a much lesser player like Dunn. Beckham we should sell high on, but definitely he should be gone by the deadline. Dunn & DeAza, as above, whatever. Someone wants full salary relief I'd like a reasonable RP prospect or something, but we're not getting anything there. Viciedo for Jacob Turner is a deal I wonder if the Sox or Marlins would turn down? Rienzo to the pen, Turner to the rotation, perfect deal, but if you don't do something like that then I think it makes more sense to keep Tank here but at DH, see if he can focus on the bat and turn things back around. Still a lot of potential with the bat but he's approaching Bacon territory and Borass as an agent makes things worse. Putnam and Petricka are keepers IMO. You're not going to get enough to make the deals worthwhile. Webb, probably not anyone willing to give up anything worth trading him for. Has a lot of command issues still but the ceiling is there & contenders aren't going to be interested in paying a quality price. Belisario is trade bait, but no reason to take a less-than-ideal offer since we still control him. Alexei is our big chip. We should start shopping him now but only for a very good package. The Cuban factor with Abreu now changes things considerably. Having Alexei here allows us to market the Cuban stuff a little harder & could make us a better destination should that Despaigne guy escape & come over to MLB. We should move him if someone gives us enough to risk not only the baseball stuff but also some of the non baseball stuff. Also I like turtles and I also want to be a mod. Please make me a mod. Thank you.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Jun 18, 2014 -> 05:36 PM) Nothing apparently. First day on the job and the game thread title lasted the whole game with a typo and was also improperly formatted. Good job, good effort new mods. You should be a mod.

Jesus Christ, everyone who posts here is a mod now except for like 5 posters. I want to know why Marty isn't a mod & I also want to know why EMinor isn't a mod. And why isn't caulfield a mod and why the f*** am I not a mod? This sucks.

wite power?

QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Jun 15, 2014 -> 09:07 AM) Nieto. Phegley. Smith. And there is literally nothing in free agency for next year: John Buck (34) Ryan Doumit (34) Nick Hundley (31) – $5MM club option Gerald Laird (35) Russell Martin (32) Jeff Mathis (32) – $1.5MM club option Wil Nieves (36) Miguel Olivo (36) A.J. Pierzynski (38) David Ross (38) Geovany Soto (32) Kurt Suzuki (31) There are several quality options to put behind Nieto should the Sox go in that direction. Otherwise you sign AJ back, becaus ehe is both wonbderful and awesome and outstanding as well, that's 3 thigns, and his name is also AJ. And he is also awesome. And then you wait around to sign someone or you (again) trade for Jason Castro who should be cheaper now than he was before.

He was showing the ability to shorten things up quite a bit earlier, so I just say leave him out there and let him do whatever he is going to do. He's definitely struggling. We really need the catching situation worked out, but the answer IMO is not Josh Phegley, who IMO can't hit enough nor can he field enough. Nieto has a better shot than he does, much better I think. Let Flowers play, but if he can't come out of his funk then you trade for or sign an MLB backup - the kind of guy with real experience, basically a personal coach for Nieto - and you put him behind Nieto & you see what Nieto can do. But stick with Tyler for now, and see if he can turn things around again.

BTW anyone know if the Sox emply any sports psychologists? Like roving guys that would work as coordinators do I guess? If so there are a ton of guys to help, if not, they need to hire someone. They can foot the bill. There's about 10-15 players I could probably list right now that need a ton of help, starting with Rodriguez, Cleto, Boggs, Paulino, Erik Johnson, the OF prospect s***fest, Davidson, etc.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jun 15, 2014 -> 08:29 AM) It was last year about this time, I think. I just thought that he fit the profile of what Coop was good at fixing -- huge arm, doesn't know where it's going. Not likely to work out, but I wanted them to give it a try. Yeah if it's Charlotte who cares, let him walk the world over there. He throws the ball a zillion miles an hour, just too often its in one of the batters boxes, or at a peanut vendor somewhere, etc. That Charlotte pen though might be one of the most talented and yet least effective bullpens in all of MiLB.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 14, 2014 -> 09:16 PM) Yes. Caulfied sets him up for the rimshot, here's the pass to DA... (swishhhh) ...nothing but net.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jun 13, 2014 -> 02:09 PM) The top. Do i need to spell it out? Ok, I will C H I S O X F N So do we pray to him or send him money (please say pray).