VAfan

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Aug 2, 2005 -> 12:33 AM) If you say at the end of your post that you "obviously can't compare AAA to the major leagues" then why did you? Comparing McCathy's K/BB, K/9 and his WHIP to the likes of Jake Peavy, Pedro Matinez, Roy Halladay and Johan Santana is just stupid. If you want to make a comparison compare his AAA numbers to other pitchers AAA numbers, don't go comparing minor league stats to the majors. Do you know of a site that gives AAA comparables? I'll be happy to make the comparisons.

I think Ozzie will keep the call-ups tight so he doesn't lose the focus and intensity of the guys he's going into October with. I wouldn't expect many more call ups than guys who might make the final postseason roster. BMac - I think he'll supplant Adkins in long relief once AAA season is done. Willie - his speed can be a weapon in a 1-run game Anderson - Rowand and Everett could use a few days off, and Anderson could be a sub if there is an injury. Gload - possibly. I don't see Diaz, Munoz, Baj, or Borchard cutting it.

I don't get all the hate for Willie. Sure, he couldn't bunt. But I remember the game when Frank went in as a PH, walked, Willie pinch ran, stole second, and scored the tying run I believe in a Sox rally. In the postseason, having him available to pinch run could make all the difference in a 1-run game. Timo just doesn't cut it in that capacity. Granted, it is a limited skill set, but he's also drawn some key walks. I believe we can do better than Willie and Timo, but they've helped win games this year so I bear them no ill will.

K/BB ratios better than McCarthy's 6.77: Brad Radke 7.17; Carlos Silva 7.14 K/9 ratios better than McCarthy's 10.4. No one. Jake Peavy's 9.98 is tops. WHIPs ratios better than McCarthy's 1.07: Pedro Martinez .85, Roy Halladay .96, Clemens .96, Peavy 1.02, Carpenter 1.02. Tied Santana 1.07. Obviously you can't compare AAA to the major leagues. Nonetheless, for those guys who wanted to trade McCarthy for a bag of popcorn and said he had reached the zenith of his value, I'd say I'm glad KW didn't seem to agree.

If Frank is forced into retirement too soon because of his foot injuries, is he going to get voted into the HOF? He should. He was the best hitter in baseball in the early 1990s even though Ken Griffey Jr. got all the accolades. He should have won 3 MVPs. His lifetime numbers are way better than Kirby Puckett, who was also forced into early retirement. The problem is that Frank hasn't connected with the fans in the way Kirby Puckett did. But what is really bizarre is a total jerk steroid user like Barry Bonds gets way more adulation than Frank Thomas. So where's the message in that? Personally, I haven't given up a sliver of hope that Frank will try and rehab and come back this year. It may not be possible, but if I were Frank I would give it my best shot. If he could play the last week or two of the season and try to get some timing back, do you think he couldn't help us in the postseason?

I'm convinced Jayson Stark became a shill for the selling teams. They kept calling him - he even admitted that Florida was calling him in the middle of the Burnett rumors - to get him to publicly add names to the deal. That's how Cliff Politte got substituted for Damaso Marte at one point. There's no way KW was trading Cliff Politte for a rental.

QUOTE(Dam8610 @ Aug 1, 2005 -> 06:34 AM) If he keeps up his production levels from past seasons (and what he's put up since going back to Charlotte), he should be a very good pitcher for many years. Throughout his minor league career prior to this year, he averaged 10.4 K/9, a 1.07 WHIP, and a 6.77 K/BB ratio. If he can put up anything CLOSE to those numbers in the bigs, he will be a great starter. Granted, he could be injured, but so could any big name that would be brought in via trade. So, when it comes down to it, if Kenny didn't feel there was a deal worth sending McCarthy to another team for, then there probably wasn't. Excellent point. Do you have any comparables?

I've got a waiver question. Since we are last in line, having the best record, are we completely unable to block any waiver trade moves consumated by teams with lesser records? If so, this concerns me. I'm not worried about Huff and Baez, since LaMar isn't getting more than he just turned down. But I wonder about Guardado, who I would still like to see on the Sox, but who would definitely get claimed before we could get to him. Who knows the answer?

QUOTE(SouthSide2004 @ Jul 31, 2005 -> 04:56 PM) It's okay VAfan, you got to remember it's that time of the month for some people here. I agree with the others that you have started numerous topics about not trading McCarthy, but I think you have a very valid point this time. Trading for Huff would no doubt help in the playoffs, but if we were to make the World Series, how much does he truly help? He can potentialy DH a possible 4 home games, and for the away games he would have to replace one of our other starter players, where his defense wouldn't be nearly as good as the starter. Is it worth trading McCarthy for? That's an extremely tough call, but I know when McCarthy does become a great pitcher within the next two years, a lot of people will be b****ing about trading him. If Kenny is to trade McCarthy for Huff, then he has to be certain that a very, very good left-handed bat is our biggest need for the playoffs. Thanks. And to think I'm getting ripped even though I posted that I wanted Huff before any of the guys who are ripping me posted on this subject. Here's my June 1 post. http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...c=34574&hl=huff Anyone who is ripping me about Huff is challenged to offer a post earlier than this one saying the Sox should trade for him.

QUOTE(quickman @ Jul 31, 2005 -> 04:58 PM) yes and yes, what are you 10 years old? How many threads does it take to get points across. In your many years following baseball how qualified are you to provide insight on how good Mcarthy would be? You don't know, its a crap shoot and thats the point. In addition when you build for a contender you build for injuries and matchups in the playoffs. Can't you make a post without trying to personally insult me? Stick to the merits. It is a crap shoot. But no one that is against my point has articulated a plan for how we are going to keep our starting pitching at the top of the game over the next 3 years. Yet you would all agree, I bet, that starting pitching is the reason we have the best record in baseball.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jul 31, 2005 -> 04:43 PM) There's a good chance Trot Nixon is out for the year. Boston wants Huff, and according to BP, Tampa likes their package for him better than what the White Sox were offering for him at least as of about midnight. Maybe the fact that they are in the same division may sway them to KW's offer. I just read the report. Nixon has a strained oblique muscle. That doesn't sound like out for the year to me. Plus they just added Jose Cruz Jr, suggesting they are looking stop gap, not long term. And the prospects TB was getting when Manny was part of the deal included Anibel Sanchez, a AA pitcher who seemed a lot more like Gio (who I would give up) than McCarthy.

Who are we really competing for with respect to Huff? Boston? I don't think so. You think if Boston isn't able to unload Manny Ramirez that they are still shopping their best prospects to TB for Aubrey Huff? Is anyone else in the Huff market? Either TB is going to come down in price for Huff, or they are going to end up keeping him. Both results would be fine would me.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 31, 2005 -> 04:23 PM) McCarthy isn't better than any of the Oakland starting pitchers. Also, I guarantee you that Jack McDowell wouldn't have done very well at the launching pad that is the Cell in the summer. I love these comparisons of someone being "the next". How's "the next" Mark McGwire doing for Charlotte this season (Borchard). He's gone from LTP to DFA. Of course I didn't come up with the comparison to Jack McDowell, Ozzie Guillen did. But now you are suggesting Jack McDowell wouldn't have been that good a pitcher for us had he played in the Cell? What? As for the Borchard comparisons, I'd be willing to give up Brian Anderson for Huff because Anderson isn't likely to be a key cog for us in the next two years, and we have other guys behind him who may be better. What pitcher in the Sox system behind McCarthy is better than McCarthy? Tracey? Gio? The new draft pick? Would you have traded Mark Buehrle in 2000 for a role player like Huff? (I'm not saying McCarthy is Buehrle, but he's got too much upside not to find out.)

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Jul 31, 2005 -> 04:18 PM) We want you to leave because you suck. I've posted off an on this board and others for several years. No one has ever directed this kind of talk at me. It has no place on a board of this kind. If you think my point makes no sense, by all means rip it. But there is no reason to make a personal attack. I've never made one against any of you.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 31, 2005 -> 04:13 PM) There's not a manager in baseball who'd rather have Everett play than Huff. I might start Huff ahead of Everett myself, but I'm not sure Ozzie would. Even so, the marginal difference between Everett and Huff is not worth surrendering "the next Jack McDowell," now is it? Look at Oakland. You think Billy Beane would give up any of his 5 starters for Aubrey Huff? Is McCarthy as good as at least 3 of them?

QUOTE(AddisonStSox @ Jul 31, 2005 -> 04:11 PM) Leave Soxtalk. Please. Just Leave. Asking nicely. ...do us all the favor and play MVP baseball from now until 3:00 CT. It's a magical fantasy world in which you can trade for whomever you wish! It's a real Candyland...of the mind, the mind. That is such crap. I've been a member on this site longer than you have. And you think I should leave because I have a high opinion of Brandon McCarthy and a realistic view of Aubrey Huff? I believe if you look that I put up a post well before you this year that the Sox should acquire Aubrey Huff. So cut the crap.

QUOTE(JimH @ Jul 31, 2005 -> 04:02 PM) Curious, how many threads are you gonna start about not trading Brandon McCarthy? I think your position is pretty well known on this topic. Why don't you answer the question of the thread? Would you trade McCarthy for Huff? Would you start Huff ahead of one of the 5 guys I mentioned?

QUOTE(AddisonStSox @ Jul 31, 2005 -> 04:02 PM) You have no idea what Huff's trade value is do you? None. Just to put things into perspective: the Red Sox were supposedly offering their #1 prospect plus others for Huff alone. You pie-in-the-sky, MVP Baseball GMs have no idea what it would take to get a player of Huff's callibur. Just to answer your question: yes, Huff would start in the playoffs, assuming Thomas is still DL'd and such. C-Pierzynski 1B-Huff 2B-Iguchi SS-Uribe 3B-Crede OF-Rowand OF-Podsednik OF-Dye DH-Konerko/Everett Huff isn't even the starting 1B for Tampa Bay! The very exciting Travis Lee - he of 2 Hrs and 21 RBI, has started 62 of TBs games at that position this year. So you think he's going to push Paul Konerko to the bench? Who needs to get a grip?

I'm all for getting Aubrey Huff and having him take Ross Gload's spot on the roster. But I'm not willing, and I hope KW is not willing, to give up Brandon McCarthy for him. McCarthy is the only pitcher we have in our system (Neal Cotts maybe) who could replace one of the Cubans as a starter next year or by 2007 when their contracts are up. To put Huff's value in context, ask yourself whether Ozzie would even start him in game 1 of the playoffs. Then answer who he would replace. Joe Crede - big defensive dropoff using Huff Carl Everett - best possibility, but it disses Everett's early season heroics Jermaine Dye - I don't think so Paul Konerko - no Scott Podsednik - NO So, all of you guys who are ready to trade a cornerstone pitcher like Brandon McCarthy for a playoff role player, step back and think about how that will weaken the Sox' chances of making the playoffs for several years to come. That would be a very bad deal.

QUOTE(daa84 @ Jul 31, 2005 -> 03:16 PM) there are many ways to build a club. oakland does extremely well being able to build on young players. but its an extremely difficult way to win. there are countless other teams that fail at it. sooner or later it will fail for oakland too, but thats how baseball is , its cyclic. the yankees and red sox win every year by making those trades for huff and not playin any youngsters( til this year). that also inflates payroll, so midlevel teams must find a way to balance what oakland and new york do, and i think the white sox can and should go out and get huff, because i think in the second half in our ballpark, he would be our second best overall hitter, behind dye I'm not against getting Huff. Way way back in May I think I suggested he'd be a good trade acquisition. But he's not a cornerstone player. Brandon McCarthy is going to be a cornerstone player within the next 2 years. By no later than 2007, we have to replace both of our Cuban starters. Who is going to fill those holes? Is JR going to beat all bidders and put AJ Burnett in one of those slots? I don't think so. Brandon McCarthy is the only pitcher we have in our system that can fill one of those holes by 2007. Neal Cotts would rank #2, but that would rob us of a great bullpen pitcher. In the meantime, does Aubrey Huff even start game 1 of the playoffs? Does Ozzie use him instead of Crede? Everett? Konerko? Dye? Podsednik?

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 31, 2005 -> 05:18 AM) Definitely not. He is a quality arm with goof stuff but to overpay for him would be bad. Baez and Huff for MBac, Sweeney, and Tracy??? Yes, No? Thank goodness you aren't the GM. I wouldn't give up BMac straight up for Huff and Baez because I don't want "Blown Save" Baez at any price. Huff is a decent player, but he has no position. He's a 5-position backup. Tracey, fine. Not BMac and not Sweeney.

QUOTE(BlackBetsy @ Jul 31, 2005 -> 02:29 PM) I think that if you have to ask the question "Where do I fit this guy into the lineup?," you don't trade McCarthy for him. That kind of excludes Aubrey Huff IMHO. I don't like a two-month rental of AJ Burnett, either, since McCarthy will be better than Burnett in 2007, and if you don't trade him, he will be a White Sox in 2007. Burnett won't. I'm now pretty firmly against trading McCarthy for any of the shark bait out there. Adam Dunn I could see, if he were available, but he's not. I love your question "Where do I fit this guy into the lineup"? It captures Aubrey Huff perfectly. Frankly, it also fits for Lyle Overbay, who wouldn't send Paul Konerko to the bench either (though I think Overbay has more upside than Huff). Kalapse, methinks you seriously overrate Huff, who is a bad defensive player at any position he plays. Now again, I'd love Huff for the stretch run. But not at the cost of McCarthy. It's McCarthy's K/BB ratio that convinces me he's going to be a solid pitcher. Give him a year of AAA seasoning and an offseason to improve his changeup and he'll be ready to help us next year. Then I expect him to take over for one of the Cubans full time in 2007 and not look back. Oakland, Oakland, Oakland. They are going to pass the Angels and win the west because Billy Beane values young pitchers, finds the right ones, and lets them play. It keeps his payroll down too.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 30, 2005 -> 06:12 AM) Aubrey Huff is not worth signing to a long term contract at any of 1B, DH or OF? Well that makes s*** of sense. Last take a look at Aubrey Huff's short career shall we. _____________________________________________________________ 2000: (Rookie Year) only 122 ABs batted .287 with 4 HRs and a .760 OPS 2001: 411 ABs 25 2B, 8 HR, 45 RBI, .248 BA, .288 OBP, .660 OPS 2002: 454 ABs 25 2B, 23 HR, 59 RBI, .313 BA, .364 OBP, .884 OPS 2003: 636 ABs 47 2B, 34 HR, 107 RBI, .311 BA, .367 OBP, .922 OPS 2004: 600 ABs 27 2B, 29 HR, 104 RBI, .297 BA, .360 OBP, .853 OPS 2005: 364 ABs 17 2B, 13 HR, 60 RBI, .266 BA, .326 OBP, .749 OPS +++ '05 July: 93 ABs 6 2B, 8 HR, 21 RBI, .311 BA, .347 OBP, .958 OPS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking at his '03 and '04 seasons alone at the age of 26 and 27 once he was settled into the league (you can't count this season seeing how there's still 2 months left), if you average those two seasons out you get: '03+'04: 618 ABs 37 2B, 31 HR, 105 RBI, .304 BA, .363 OBP, .887 OPS That my friend is a 30/100/.300 player with a .875+ OPS. Those types of players are hard to come by. He would be worth signing to a long term contract to serve as your 1Bman or DH. He's only 28 and switching to a contender would most likely just improve his production seeing how he'll have something to play for for the first time in his career. I just don't think Aubrey Huff is a difference maker as an offensive player. He's a nice solid ballplayer who started the season worse than Juan Uribe, but he's turned it around in July. Would I take him over Carl Everett next year as a DH and platoon guy? Yes, because he's signed for another year. Do I think he's a better hitter than Jermaine Dye or Paul Konerko? He was in 2002. But his decline early this year gives one pause. My point is that I believe Brandon McCarthy will definitely be a difference maker, and I'm not willing to trade a guy we might have for a year and 2 months for a pitcher who might become a key member of our rotation for 5-6 years. If McCarthy is even 80% as good as Jack McDowell, that would be a lot of wins before he became a free agent. I'm willing to consider trading McCarthy for another cornerstone player who is in his early 20s that is just as good. But I hope he's not traded for someone, like Aubrey Huff or Danys Baez who would only be on our team for a blip in time and in 5 years you would have forgotten that they ever played for the Sox. (Again, I'd be happy to add Huff; I just wouldn't trade McCarthy to get him. "Blown Save" Baez I'd rather pass on regardless of price.) As for Guardado, I think he'd be a great addition. Indeed, I think he could add more value to our playoff roster than many of the names being bandied about. But it won't take Brandon McCarthy to get him.

QUOTE(3E8 @ Jul 30, 2005 -> 09:00 PM) Did Burnett's start today take him off the market? 7 IP, 4 H, 0 ER, 1 BB, 8 SO. Now 3.30 ERA. Contreras with 4.58 ERA. Still think he can't help us? Sure, it was a very nice game. But remember, it was against the Nats, the worst offense in baseball.

I know he's been discussed before. And I have no rumors to report. But I look out there at the prospect of a Frankless team in the playoffs with no one in the lineup who will scare anyone and wonder what deal could get done. Adam Dunn. That's the name that jumps out at me. I bet he would be available for less than what Aubrey Huff will fetch. Yet Dunn is someone you can build upon. He's 25. He'd be perfect at DH. He's a LH bat like we haven't had in a long time. Now the rumor board says Cincy wants a #3 pitcher for him. Of course I wouldn't give up Jon Garland for him, and I don't think Cincy would accept either of our Cuban pitchers. But they aren't going any where this year. So why wouldn't they accept a combination of very solid minor league pitchers? Brandon McCarthy and Tracey, or McCarthy and 2-3 B-list pitchers? Dunn strikes out a lot, and doesn't hit for a high average. But his OBP is close to .400, so he isn't making that many outs. He would look very good in the middle of our lineup.