FT35

QUOTE (Dunt @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 09:15 AM) If the Sox can nab Meadows, Newman, and Keller for Q, I will lose my s***. That would be the best Christmas present ever and would probably benefit both teams pretty well. Sox get guys that can make an impact in 2018, Pirates dont lose anyone from their roster next year, they get a cheap player that can help their financial situation, and the Sox get some blue chip position prospects and a pitching prospect with an insane K:BB ratio. Another interesting thought would be a three way trade with someone who wants to trade for McCutchen. The Pirates get Q, the other team gets Cutch, and the Sox get a load of prospects from both teams. Just for fun! Yankees get McCutchen, T. Frazier and Miguel Gonzalez Pirates get Quintana, Robertson and Headley White Sox get Torres or Frazier (NYY), Meadows (PIT), Keller (PIT), Hayes (PIT), Diaz (PIT), Fowler (NYY)

QUOTE (Dam8610 @ Dec 20, 2016 -> 04:07 PM) How many of these guys have to bust before Sox fans will learn that that type of player just does not develop in the White Sox farm system? To be fair...we don't see a lot of pure power hitting monsters come through our system. Unless they are "toolsy athletes" we generally avoid! That includes all players with any sort of baseball IQ. lol Who was the last? Joe Borchard?

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Dec 20, 2016 -> 02:32 PM) Just for sh**ts and gigs, I wonder what a package with Headley coming back could look like. To Yankees: Quintana Frazier To White Sox: Headley Torres Frazier Rutherford Judge Lol, doubt it. I have a hard time imagining the 2 years and $26M they owe Headley moves the meter enough to give up 4 of their top 5 prospects. A man can dream though. Another guy who gets sorta lost in the Judge hype in NY is Greg Bird. He's the same age as Judge but I think he has the makings of a much better hitter--plus he was MONEY in his short call-up--even in the clutch. Coming off the injury, I wonder if he would be a possibility if they won't budge on Judge? I know he's a 1B but still...could be an OF option, or a fallback at 1B if we move Abreu.

QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Dec 20, 2016 -> 02:32 PM) And they were still contenders. Ah...the value a MLB manager brings to a team...

QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 20, 2016 -> 02:06 PM) Thanks, this is what I was going to write. Yanks clearly have Harper earmarked for 18 and as such want to get under "repeat offender" tax before then. Quintana allows them to be competitive while not raising money. If ever there was a case to take on salary, this would be it (Headley). There were compelling reasons why Q put teams like the Astros over the top, but the Yankees are a compelling team because of Qs contract. This is also largely what pinstripe alley argues. It's true...and one would think that they have a VERY bad taste still from letting Q get away the first time--they might overpay just a smidge at the chance to get him back in their pinstripes! That's what I'm hoping for at least.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 20, 2016 -> 01:35 PM) I agree. I was watching MLBN yesterday and Brian Kenny was grilling Morosi as to why the Yankees would do this. Morosi, who has been called an idiot here more than once, seed to think Q's 4 years of control was a big reason. It still makes litttle sense to me why the Yankees would trade all the prospects they have just gained, but Eric Byrnes and Billy Ripken both said they need to make the trade. I don't really think there is anything to it, but I also thought Moncada was off the table. Yeah, if they are thinking 2018, it would make more sense for them--especially since they are going to lose a couple starters then. A lot of players bust their first year in NY...maybe they would pull the trigger now and get that rust out in 2017 so they can make their real run in 2018.

QUOTE (NCsoxfan @ Dec 20, 2016 -> 01:50 PM) Yankees probably don't intend on a very long rebuild, and likely intend on contending more seriously in '18 & on, so it's not just about 2017. There's a LOT of value to them in 4 years of Q. They could be planning to sign Machado/Harper/etc and would want to save $ elsewhere on someone like Q. Right...this may be the time to pounce to make sure they have him for 18...17 is just the "get acclimated" year. I could see that.

The Yankees finished in 4th place at 84-78 last year...9 games back of Boston--who just got a lot better with the Sale trade. It's just puzzling to think they would see themselves as ready to contend enough to mortgage their farm to acquire Quintana right now. Houston finished with the same 84-78 record and they were 11 games back. A guy like Quintana could make either of these 2 teams a potential 90-win team, but both would have a lot of other work to do to somehow catch the clubs in front of them who are more than just a little better than them! My sales pitch would be this...No...Quintana might not be the player who vaults either one of those teams to 1st place...but he would close at least half that gap by himself and his low salary would enable them to still go out and close it more with others. One would think they would need to do that before the season started because every win will matter for the Yankees and Astros chances of winning their division...however, the talks going on now may be more realistically laying the groundwork for a July 31st deal--just to see where they are then.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Dec 20, 2016 -> 01:01 PM) I find it hard to believe the Yankees give up one of Torres/Frazier let alone both. Oh I think that the whole reason the Sox would listen is because of Torres/Frazier. I don't think you'll see the Sox do a deal without one or the other. I'm with you--maybe not both, but one or the other is not just "probably" but almost for sure. And if the Yanks don't do one of those 2, then I think talks will end quickly. The Sox are going after every team's #1 prospect as a centerpiece return so far. Only exception is the report from Houston declining that 3 player trade without Bregman--and I'm not 100% convinced of that report's accuracy...

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Dec 19, 2016 -> 12:24 PM) I agree. I actually think putting Jones in the closer role would have had more downside then upside. We all know there are certain players who just can't close (for whatever reason) and if Jones had a few bad outings, it could have hindered his trade value a lot more then the potential upside from a solid couple months (imo). Jones value should be high, the only real question is how much of a negative in trade value is his injury history. Jones is very high on my list of guys we should move now. Yes. However...we gotta think about something. The reason why we're in the position we're in by having all kinds of good, young, cheap, controllable players is because we have a lot of players who bought into the talk of us going all in. In order to do so, our management probably convinced young promising players to agree to lower contracts for extended time periods to prepare to contend. "We aren't the Yankees and this is how we get to where we're going--we want you to be a part of it for a long time." If we trade those guys for huge hauls, the players may not be so quick to sign those types of contracts in the future. Remember what RH said when he dealt Eaton--he said the only regret he had was to Eaton himself because he hadn't anticipated trading him so soon into his contract. It's a slap in the face to guys to agree to a lower contract for a longer time frame to be a centerpiece for a team--only to be flipped as management uses that contract against them to get more value in a trade. I know it's business...but it's also something players could catch on to before they "agree to be a part of a big picture future" for less.

QUOTE (reiks12 @ Dec 19, 2016 -> 10:46 AM) Hawk and Wimpy were the reasons I became a Sox fan. Since Haray died my fandom became clear (my dad grew up in NY and moved to Chicago when I was born). Me too brother! One of my earlier memories of my favorite Hawk's calls (aside from his HR calls for Warren Newson...the DEACON!) was the last out of the game when we won the West division in 93. It was simple...Ellis Buuuuuuuks...YES!!!!

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Dec 16, 2016 -> 02:00 PM) lol Like I said, nobody can even post anything that is thought provoking. Read the post, I never said that it happened, I said that there is a chance. So far again the only 2 players who were traded were Sale/Eaton. If you dont think that businesses get rid of employees because they have problems with management, then I have a bridge in brooklyn for sale. OMG I said "Lets see how this goes" OMG I said "there is a chance". So crazy! If you dont think its interesting that the only 2 players the Sox traded were outspoken against the management, thats your choice. No idea why people wouldnt be interested in discussing actual evidence. But hey, I was here before any of the arbitrary "This board sucked", so I guess maybe some people need to start looking in the mirror, because maybe they are the reason. Oh and I never said that the Sox arent in a rebuild, just that if April rolls around and the Sox have only traded Eaton/Sale, then what does it say. Again, sorry for discussing an alternative outcome based on the evidence as of today. But the problem is, none of you needed to come into this thread. The thread was clearly "devils advocate" and a place to discuss "non-conforming" ideas. But again, that doesnt seem to be possible on this board at the present time. And for the record, I do believe that the Sox are actively trying to trade and rebuild. But its just so boring to read twitter rumors all day. Exactly! No one is saying anything other than...hmmm. It's almost just pointing out the irony that the only 2 players traded (so far) were the ones who were most outspoken against management. Not just Drakegate, but they seemed to clash many times and publically. No one is dumb here, the quality of the site has not dropped--nothing is sad. Just a group of people discussing their team--pointing out a thought. Certain threads aren't for everyone--there are many that I pass on and some that draw me into that particular thought. I apologize to those who thought ill will of those of us who responded to the thought. Intentions were pure.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Dec 16, 2016 -> 11:08 AM) We don't really know that. If he were to get him, he would be playing SS in the minors for a few years while we figure out where and Anderson and Moncada are best suited for. If those positions are SS and 2B, then great. Rodgers to third then. But ultimately I think Moncada ends up at third personally. I agree...keep him at SS till it's evident he will not play SS at MLB level (for whatever reason). I do think the Sox would prefer Moncada at 2B. For 1, 2nd base has been a revolving door since the days of T. Iguchi! From what I've read, that's his natural position and the move to 3rd was basically because he was MLB ready and Pedroia was still ahead of him. Kind of like the Trea Turner to CF move. Who knows though, athletes of that caliber are capable of playing whatever at a high level with enough reps--so that 3rd base door is still open.

QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 16, 2016 -> 10:32 AM) Chapman and Miller got a lot at the deadline but Ken Giles and Kimbrel got a lot in the offseason and Thornburg just got a lot a few weeks ago. I don't think it matters that much. Thornburg just netted a major league 3b and two prospects. True...it can go either way--depends on if teams (who don't have a solid closer) who looking to contend early on think they can make it to the trade deadline without a closer. Obviously he would be worth more now to teams who are set up to contend from the get go (Nationals) and worth more at the deadline to those who come to realize they are in the hunt and just need a closer. If I were Washington, I'd be looking to get a deal done now--and have him available on Opening Day and not have to deal with a committee for 4 months and 6 other teams (and likely a higher price) come July 31st.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Dec 16, 2016 -> 09:05 AM) This thread is a dumpster fire. It's not interesting. This website is much, much dumber than it used to be. Used to be my favorite place to go. Now I dread reading many of the threads. It's sad actually. It's all good...you're not required to participate in it? There are other threads that may be more interesting? To each their own! You must have a lot of faith in our FO to assume everything they say is truth!

QUOTE (Ro Da Don @ Dec 15, 2016 -> 07:43 PM) This s*** is getting ridiculous. It's like 1/3rd of Sox fans want to be an under .500 team for the next 15 years. THEY'RE REBUILDING. Get over it already and stop making these threads and posts already. Read the damn GM and owner's comments the past 2 weeks. I just don't know...I've been burned before by trusting everything I hear...shoot, we were all convinced Sale was going to Washington--then things changed in a heartbeat. Our GM and owners comments only show what they are thinking at that moment...they are free to change course and HAVE in the past. All we're saying is that it's possible that they got more than they thought for Sale and Eaton and modified their course of action. The landscape of the organization is DRASTICALLY different than it was before those deals happened. It's realistic to think that there is some reevaluation happening--and a different course of action is being discussed. The thread wouldn't exist if there wasn't a little speculation that this could be the case. If nothing else, it's an interesting theory that many have enjoyed discussing. That's the point of these boards--(over analyze the crap out of our team!) try to think of everything...it's impossible for 1 person to be right about everything along the way--unless you're the great Dick Allen. No one posting in this thread would be the least bit surprised if Q, Abreu and or Jones were dealt, but until it happens...it's an interesting thought to think the plan has changed.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 15, 2016 -> 03:56 PM) If you look at what they asked for from Houston for Q, they are perfectly willing to trade him, and he had zero to do with that mess. This isn't just to do with Drake LaRoche. That is a good point. I do think they will listen. I don't think this is exclusively about the Drake issue...as much as it could be those 2 guys were disgruntled--and just one example was how they responded to the Drake issue--then the jersey issue, then the playing time issue and so on. Clubhouse unrest in general coming from 2-perceived "leaders," maybe? It could have been frequent enough to consider moving them for a tall premium to rebuild their all but vacant farm system.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Dec 15, 2016 -> 03:12 PM) The White Sox aren't forfeiting any draft picks. They want to trade everyone. How is this still not clear for people? If Rick Hahn had it his way, he would have made 4 more trades right now. They want to be terrible this year. And they should be. I think it's clear that they are doing something--and we all think we know what that is (rebuild), but until some other pieces drop, their actual plan is still a little unclear. So far, Sale and Eaton are gone and a massive prospect return has been secured. We should judge by the confirmed reports, not the speculation. Do they really want to trade everyone? Or did they get back more than they anticipated by dealing 2 guys who were not happy and decide to rethink/redefine the course of action? This organization is notorious for the "hybrid" solution to team construction so for those of us who have been life-long Sox fans--those thoughts are still in the back of our minds. Still think Quintana, Abreu and Jones tell the story because they are happy, productive, affordable and controllable. A hybrid rebuild is on the table as a possibility until the happy, productive, affordable and controllable players get moved. Robertson, Melky and Frazier could go but only because of lost production or expiring contracts, but those are the types of decisions every team makes each off season--but not necessarily indicative of a FULL, 'trade everyone' for prospects rebuild.

QUOTE (NCsoxfan @ Dec 15, 2016 -> 11:06 AM) Guys, seriously. They're shopping Quintana, Frazier, and others as well. You wouldn't be shopping Jose Quintana if the whole purpose was to dump the Drake distractions. C'mon. I don't know...If you move the Drake fans--in this particular case, Sale and Eaton, it certainly gives the impression to the league that they are rebuilding since those are pretty core players. You could get tons of calls on guys like Q, Robertson and Abreu that you might not have gotten if people didn't think you were selling everything. But Hahn has only said this was a "process" but has never said he is tearing it all down. He's said he is willing to deal anyone for the right price, but isn't every GM? I've always thought this...how a team stacked full with players with this much value who everyone is willing to mortgage their farm to get (as the Sox have) could be so far away from contending that they would need to wipe everything clean and start over is baffling. I just wonder how much better of a baseball team we will be by simply having a baseball manager? Take last year's roster, fix the bullpen, add another starter and give that talent to someone who knows how to use it instead of Robin. They have taken the patchwork approach because they have had a great core that is relatively cheap and controllable. Trading Sale now after the issues he had with the FO last year combined with the fact that his numbers declined and getting the #1 ranked prospect in baseball was on the table--that's being opportunistic. Dealing Eaton (who also had FO issues) for who we got was well...a no brainer. I still think Robertson is on the block because of Jones' emergence and what some teams who are better positioned to contend THIS YEAR might give up for him. And you might see Frazier go because of his contract--but neither one of those moves would signify a complete tear down. Only if Q and Abreu go would I be convinced a full-out rebuild is actually happening. Otherwise...I'm thinking they are only punting 2017 and setting up to make another run in 2018 with Q, Abreu, Anderson, Moncada, Rodon, Giolito, Lopez, Jones and a couple of big name FAs from the huge 2018 FA class. By then, they will be about ready to add Collins and Kopech to that mix in late 2018 for the 2019 season. Of course the market will dictate whether they move Q or Abreu (if someone overpays, then so be it)...but until then, I'm not too sure they aren't just done dealing controllable assets.

QUOTE (steveno89 @ Dec 15, 2016 -> 09:56 AM) Quintana's price should be high. Now is the perfect time to deal him given the lack of other options out there. Frankly, the Rockies might need Q more than the Astros. Their pitching is pretty awful and they could use a TOR starter badly Agree. It should be high--but the Eaton trade made it even higher. If we get a top 5 prospect, another top 50 and a first rounder for Eaton--then the return on Quintana pushes into the holy crap range--how to you top that? a top 5, 2 other top 50's and another 1st rounder or top 100? What that would look like for Houston would be Bregman, Martes, Tucker, AND Musgrove! They reportedly balked at that and it didn't even include their top 5 piece! I would LOVE to see the Rockies make a push. Frankly, I like their prospects better than the Astros because Rodgers seems more obtainable than Bregman (not sure why, it just seems like it!) For some reason, I can picture Quintana in a Rockies uniform easier too--seems like the type of pitcher they need.

Things went quiet after the massive haul we got for Eaton. That deal almost out-priced a lot of teams on Q because he would certainly warrant more of a return than Eaton. It's also set a high floor on what the Sox would feel would be a sufficient return for Q--relative to the first 2 deals. That means teams are basically on the hook for upping that ante past what we got for Eaton and it's possibly added an element of caution to GMs trying to deal for Robertson and Q. "Be careful not to give up too much--like the Nats did--we won't make that same mistake." Hence the delay in rumors.

I want to see my team play hard. Losing is not ok...intentional losing is even worse. But being a rebuilding process...if I still see my team play hard every day and put up a fight and maybe play spoiler to some teams in the fall--OK (for a limited time). It makes higher frequency losing more tolerable--as long as we are playing hard and fundamentally growing and all the losing is not due to building bad losing habits which would carry over to the years we're ready to contend. #1 goal--start building winning habits/culture. The pressure to win might be low, but still remains high to perform and build winning habits and culture. We still have to have standards through all this.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 14, 2016 -> 10:38 AM) They seem to have zero regard for the future roster in these deals, and everything about how they are ranked. Ha! This is true! I do think they are approaching it as if to acquire all the best talent--regardless of position. It's early and they are simply looking to acquire assets of value. It's kind of like you do in fantasy baseball--take the best player available and then if you end up with a surplus at the end of the draft, you flip something you have for something you need of equal value. Personally I'd like to see the rebuild center around position players then buy any needed SP when you're ready to contend. I like the idea of these guys playing together as early as possible--turning double plays, learning relay throws...all things defensively benefit by having a good core of 8 players on the field. Then, just add water (pitcher).

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 13, 2016 -> 04:20 PM) Hahn called DD and said he was trading Sale at the Winter Meetings, so basically he was ending the auction and all of the posturing. If he didn't do that, who knows, Sale and Eaton probably aren't yet traded, and the Winter Meetings are a total bust. Think how many teams have done next to nothing this offseason. It is pretty incredible. I thought things would be crazy this week with the holidays coming up. Still a chance, but not looking good I hope the reason why teams are quiet isn't because they have decided that the Cubs are going to string together a dynasty run now--and it's not really worth going all in till the Cubs prove to have dents in their armor. I do believe there are teams that fall into this category--the Pirates most notably. Sucks to be a team on the fence in the NL right now--I wonder how many will come to the realization that they need to hold off going for it. Same can be said for the Red Sox. Of course there have been super teams in the past (Blue Jays 2014?) that haven't panned out. But I think the lack of activity now means we could see a MUCH more active trade deadline in July as teams hold off to see just how competitive they are and how they stack up with the super powers in each league. To some extent you have this every year...but MLB is really diverse right now with the rich getting richer. It's a great time to do what we're doing.

QUOTE (NCsoxfan @ Dec 13, 2016 -> 02:12 PM) I sure hope, but why would a team give up a top 50 guy for Robertson? Basically a supply and demand thing. For a contending team with no closer option, desperate times calls for desperate measures. Robertson might not be the best closer out there but right now he might be the best "available" closing option out there. Contending teams might be stacked all over the field and have the luxury of dealing a top 50 prospect for a piece that would help them win now. 37/44 or whatever his conversion rate is brings more value to a team in the next 2 years than a top 50 guy who would not crack the roster during a "win now" window. Plus the fact that he has some post season experience--looks GREAT next to anyone else out there.