FT35

Do we really think if we unload a bunch of players for prospects, that the prospects will flourish in our system--a system where position players go to die?! Again...I'd love a good rebuild, but I just have serious doubts that our organization would know what to do with all the talent coming back. I think it would be a shock to the way things work. Quite honestly, with our management philosophy, prospects are only good if you can trade them for MLB pieces you need. I'm not sure we have the people to develop 6 of the top 50 prospects in MiLB. Even if they are MLB ready and start all the way up with us, we have a coaching staff who has worked with a vet-heavy group of guys as long as they have been here. Still think if you infuse your minor (and major) league system with some of the top prospects in the game, you better bring in the people who are known for developing these players or they will wind up to be busts. Anyone watch the movie Miracle? The US vs the Soviets in the Miracle on Ice game? Remember when the Russian coach didn't pull his goalie for the extra attacker when they were down a goal late in the game? US Coach, Herb Brooks leaned over and told his assistant coach that the reason why is because they have never been TRAILING a game late enough to know to pull their goalie so he didn't know to do that? THAT is how I view a rebuild for our team! WE would miss so many obvious developmental opportunities simply because our organization doesn't develop young talent, we trade it.

QUOTE (Deadpool @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 01:56 PM) That's a point I haven't considered. Then again, I'm not sure the Sox, if selling, are really looking for immediate MLB impact or if they want to build for the future. And it's probably a little of both...they will listen to offers and see if someone in contention now offers a "heat of the moment" deal they can't refuse--if not, they will hold off till the off season and bring more variables into play. Either way it will take a ton to acquire him. He might be TOO valuable for some teams--if there is such a thing.

QUOTE (Footlongcomiskeydog @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 12:33 PM) Reports out there that the Cubs are in on Reddick. Always thought he would look good in a Sox uniform. I guess the rich just get richer... Depressing time to be a Sox fan. I don't expect the Sox to make any major moves. They will just sit on their hands like last year. Hang in there bud! We're all in this together and feel the same way. You just gotta love the game and appreciate what it takes to win. At least look at it this way...if we're sellers, the next 11 days will be exciting times to be a Sox fan to see who all we get. Out with the old, in with the new. How confident are we in our FO to make the right moves and maximize our returns!? NOT SO MUCH! But we can have fun looking up prospects, speculating and debating deals. I'm sure the MLB team will pepper a few wins for us to relish in over the next couple weeks too. Plus, watching young players come up and debut is exciting--who knows...maybe a future Hall-of-Famer debuts with us THIS year?!!? Who's with me?!?? Crickets!??

OK...let's be realistic...you can't just trade everyone. Everyone who is saying Rodon, Anderson and Fulmer are no's...everyone else is gone. You know how long it would take to work out a trade for everyone!?!? You can't just keep 3 young, unproven players and get rid of everyone else. No one does that and we aren't THAT bad. Some of these are obvious but often overlooked by posters here! Here are some things to consider in a rebuild: 1. You have to keep a vet. For the stability of an organization, you need some sort of constant--a Frank Thomas/Paul Konerko-type player that exemplifies an organization, deals with the new players and serves as an ambassador for the team if you will. What vet defines White Sox baseball and its future? Possibilities include Frazier, Sale, Q, Abreu, Eaton. Personally, my vote would be Sale because of his value/contract. 2. You can't think you're rebuilding without changing managers. A true re-build needs a new philosophy FIRST--then the search begins for baseball players who fit that philosophy. 3. Don't just replace someone to replace them. Figure out what players you currently have that fit that new philosophy and lock them up. Nothing is worse than trading Adam Eaton in a fire sale, then bringing in a new manager who says "we need an Adam Eaton-type player."

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 08:46 AM) They've been trying to do that, and we've seen the results. So how do you do that? Trade Eaton, Lawrie, Frazier and Robertson? It could work although you'd really have to hit on 2 OFs, one of whom is skilled at getting on base (a long term issue with this team). But, why not? If it doesn't work, complete the sell-off next year. maybe through Jones in there...he should be good for a Vogelbach. Trade our decent prospects for more veterans? That's risky, unlikely to work, and it will kill the future. OR...make 1 change and try their luck with a new manager and see if a new culture can bring out the best in our players???? Ha!

QUOTE (Deadpool @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 08:19 AM) Not sure why Sale in particular would want to play his prime years for a bad team. This type of thinking is a pipe dream. Quality starting pitching is causing some teams to lose their minds on the trade market. Teams would trade real, MLB ready talent to get an Ace starting pitcher like either of these guys. The White Sox are no longer in a position where they should be thinking about yearly reload. It's eroding their team, their farm system, their wallets, and their fanbase. Sale and Q are real MLB ready stars. I agree with you that teams are losing their minds...but what does that mean if we deal our 2 aces? It would cost us everything of value that we got FOR THEM to replace them when we are in a position of contention! And we better hope that those prospects we trade for GET US to a position of contention WITHOUT starting pitching! So it becomes a matter of considering Sale and Q a part of the future or not. In 3 years when all our newly acquired position player talent from our fire sale this year makes it big and they all become all-stars capable of carrying a team without starting pitching...who will pitch? How will we reacquire 2 aces (who we would have had under control STILL), when the price is as high as it is now (and sure to go higher by the time we need these guys)!? If you go the free agent route, you're rolling the dice on a Shark-type collapse, and you're likely paying $30M/year on that chance--now multiply that all by 2 and there is a lot of risk in replacing these 2 players. It may be decades before we have 2 aces under team-friendly affordable control like this again! As much as I like the idea of a rebuild--I think you rebuild around your biggest strength--even though your biggest strength carries the biggest trade value.

I'd love to keep both because I believe having both gives us the best chance to contend in the years we're supposed to be rebuilding for now. If someone wanted to overpay, I'd part with Q before Sale because Sale has become the face of the franchise. You want all his prime years to be here. ALTHOUGH...something to keep in mind, Sale has been very vocal at times with team matters. He's gone on some public rants about management decisions...makes me wonder if it's because they are like family and he knows that it won't effect their relationship or if there's really conflict between them.

QUOTE (TheFutureIsNear @ Jul 20, 2016 -> 01:51 PM) If Shields can string together another 2 good starts I think there's a real possibility we could flip him for more than we gave up. Am I the only that would gauge interest on Nate Jones too? I know he's young and controlled, but I can't be the only 1 that sees his elbow going again before too long. I wouldn't just trade him for the sake of getting rid of him, but with the # of contenders looking for backend bullpen help he might be able to net us a pretty good prospect. Shields is debatable...In a full rebuild, absolutely. But if they are going to just retool and reload to contend in 2017, I might actually keep him because the market to get a SP is off the charts right now. Not saying that Shields would garner much interest, but rather we would be left with a hole that would require some deep pocket investing to fill. Boston just traded "The next Pedro Martinez" level prospect to get Pomeranz. Right now, Shields is at least serviceable and has #3 starter upside. Free agent pickins' are slim this off-season, that means the mediocre SPs are going to be overpriced. Shields is only costing us cash ($11M/year for the next 2 years--which is low for a #3 SP). We got him on a big discount and if he pitches like he has, he can be useful. We can always flip him next year if we tank again. Jones. I think you hold Jones because of his contract. They signed him at a setup man price, but have a potential closer should they decide to move Robertson. He's an injury risk, but could very well be the closer of the future for us. I think you'll see them keep both of these players for the rest of the season. Just my prediction!

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 04:34 PM) Thank you. I'm getting tired of people taking the board's variety of opinions and then calling it hypocritical. That's what I love about this board. You really get a well-rounded picture of how people feel about things--and thus how things truly are. Even the posts where someone seems off-based provide insight it their own way because it shows how people think. We disagree a lot but it's respectful and we take away another layer of understanding from it all. And you can tell that we all love this team even when we are so down on them.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 01:20 PM) Isn't spending $46 million on a closer a big market move? I'm not sure a team's market determines whether $46M is spent on a closer. Isn't it more about the competitive state of that team or who is capable on their roster (no matter what their salary is)? For example...Philly is one of the larger markets but they do not have a $46M closer because they aren't that good. Many big market teams do have an expensive closer because their team warrants one. But many large market teams don't--K-Rod is $3.5M in Detroit, Harris is 514K for Houston, Mauer is the minimum in SD. Let's not forget everybody's favorite Cubs--$544K for Rondon. Market may be an independent variable to closer cost.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 07:59 AM) Nope. But at least I know you werent actually watching the game. It's all good! I was watching. During the game, there will be ups and downs--Sale was struggling a bit but still getting outs with other pitches. I don't hate your philosophy--not upset at all that you disagree and I respect your thoughts. I'm just passionate about this particular situation because I'm old school when it comes to letting your starter finish the game when he's been dominant. Even more so when it's your ace, and even more so when it's the best ace in the league. I think managers baby their pitchers and it drives me crazy. Bring Robertson in to close out a fading Rodon. Leave Sale alone. The only way you take him out is if Sale requests it. I bet you a crisp dollar that Sale believed with his whole heart that he could finish that game--even with fading stuff. It would take an injury for him to want out. Fatigue means nothing to a champion. He knows his body better than anyone. Jordan took the last shot of the game because there was no better option in the world to take that shot--even if he was tired. He had likely taken 20 other shots before the last, and he was probably tired, but if you had told him he was going to sit out the last shot so Toni Kukoc could do HIS job and score, he would have walked off the court. The most important aspect of that is that PHIL JACKSON KNEW THAT. Phil Jackson LET Jordan be the champion that he was. He didn't take the ball from him BEFORE the winning shot. Robin simply doesn't think like a champion so therefore none of his players are allowed to be champions. The decisions that MAKE champions are taken away from them and passed on to other people when the game is on the line. Sale's arm is worth $20M+ when he's using it to throw a baseball every 5 days--not when he's resting it peacefully on the bench with the game on the line--after only throwing 100 pitches through 8 dominant shut out innings--while another guy finishes HIS GAME. All the respect in the world for my fellow Sox fans...even a big fan of Rock Raines! But this aint gonna change my mind!

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 07:34 AM) No it wasnt. He had a 3 run lead and was losing his stuff. You pay 40 million dollars for Robertson to close, and this was a picture perfect opportunity and he failed. Sale at 100 pitches is better than a fresh Robertson. He's our best chance to win at any point of the game. He's not just our best pitcher either...he's the best pitcher in the American League. If he runs into trouble, you go get your fresh arm with a little adrenaline to go with it. Again...the hitters due up were 1 for 10 on the night. You bet on your ace to come through and seal the deal first. He's not 10 years old, he's in the prime of his career. Let the closer come in if there is trouble or an option other than Chris Freaking Sale pitching.

Agree Robertson has been great for us. My problem is more that Robin babies Sale. This happened in a game last year (against Cleveland I believe) where Sale was dominant and had his unhittable stuff going, then Robin pulled him for some reason going into the 9th. Tonight Sale was at the 100 pitch mark through 8 innings of 1 HIT ball--a clip of about 13 pitches per inning. The next 4 hitters due up were 1 for 10 on the night against him. I understand being mindful of Sale's pitches, but as long as the game is still in doubt, you run your ACE out for the 9th. He's going for a 1-hit shutout--you run him out to at LEAST start the 9th. Do you think Baumgarner gets pulled in that situation? Kershaw? Cueto? No. They finish what they started even if it means throwing a few extra DOMINANT pitches. He's thrown 118 this year, 119, 113...he's your ace for crying out loud. If you get burned, so be it, but you have to learn from it. Robin just plain repeats the process and makes the same mistakes over and over and watches these types of games get blown up. Robertson shouldn't have been in that situation. That was Sales masterpiece to finish, but daddy came in and took his paint brush away so he could get a bath in before bed. Makes me sick. These guys are GROWN MEN.

If you were going to do the unthinkable and trade Sale...prospect package from Houston built around 3B Bregman or from Boston built around 2B Moncada? Sox would pretty much have their pick of whoever they want from a prospect standpoint--maybe from a MLB player standpoint as well!

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 16, 2016 -> 02:03 PM) I think Sox are standing pat because they'd have been making moves by now, starting with Frazier, Robertson. Waiting til right before the deadline means we'll get robbed again. Hmmm...I think them holding off what they are doing has more to do with the fact that a lot can happen in the 2 weeks before the deadline. They themselves could get back in it with a little run. More teams could join the race--meaning more teams would bid on our players if we sell--driving the price up. More teams could fall out--meaning more sellers to buy from if we happen to get back in it. I don't really think we know for sure that they are standing pat now because they haven't moved anyone out yet. The picture is pretty clear to us--but murky do to all that can happen in the next 2 weeks.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 18, 2016 -> 09:20 AM) I don't know what to do. I don't trust Hahn to do a rebuild not because I don't think he could get the best return (though I have my doubts) but because he has proven he can't sell the patience required to have a wave of young talent come up at once. I just would prefer we don't buy unless it is for a long term player in a down year we think could be useful later. Makes sense. Being a GM takes practice too and Hahn hasn't had a ton of practice selling (because they always insist on adding??) so he's probably not the best to lead a big sale. Almost like you need to sub out that portion of his job to someone who has practice selling assets and getting the best returns. GM consignment...I like it!

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jul 18, 2016 -> 07:23 AM) The Sox CANNOT and WILL NOT make a run this year with a team that is a cat whisker away from having the worst offense in the entire league (for the second straight year, I might add). Shockingly, the dumpster dive moves from last winter to upgrade the offense haven't panned out, and thus the team is essentially in the same boat offensively as it was this time last year. And that, ladies and gentleman, will not get this team to the playoffs...for the eighth straight year. Agree that the odds are very low! But you never know. Some of the teams in the same position might choose to sell and thus slip a little, some might crash like we did earlier this year, some could battle the injury plague, we could go on a very minor run and get back within a few games again. It's baseball and weird unexplained things happen ALL THE TIME! A minor sell would allow us to collect some value for certain players--but still keep us in the conversation as a wild card dark horse--and to this management group, that's what keeps fans coming to watch this team. It probably won't happen, but it could. Not the position you want to be in, but chemistry and winning sometimes come out of nowhere--in all sports. The most likely teams to win don't always come through.

QUOTE (Dunt @ Jul 18, 2016 -> 06:53 AM) I really think you can move Robertson and Frazier and not really mess with the long term picture of this team. What about a guy like Cody Bellinger for Robertson? Dodgers strengthen their bullpen, have a little leverage in a Jensen negotiations this offseason, Burdi can replace Robertson in the pen (probably setting up for Jones), and Bellinger can move Jose to DH. You could try moving Frazier to a team like the Mets too for someone like Brandon Nimmo. Good plate discipline, solid defender in CF, they are probably a little down on him right now. Same thought here. Minor sell. You don't need to do anything drastic. We are a .500 team, we're not going to really contend, but there are some nice pieces in place for the next couple of years. I think you can move Robertson at the VERY least and get something you can use this year or next. Don't like to trade the guy, he's done a respectful job, but he has value outside of what we can use. A lot can change with the playoff picture in 2 weeks though...we might not see a deal until the last day. I still believe the Sox can make a run THIS YEAR without Robertson. Jones is capable and the rest of the team is in tact. Spend the rest of the summer developing players for next year while still in a somewhat mindful Wild Card race (that will likely NOT happen for us--with or without Robertson).

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 13, 2016 -> 04:29 PM) Well, not every prediction is going to be right...and just because a player has all the tools in the world doesn't mean they're going to take advantage of them. I remember back in 1985, I must have bought 100 Eric Davis rookie cards thinking he was going to be the next Mays/Mantle. Didn't happen. By WAR, Puig's at 1.0 (and looking at around 1.5-2.5 for a full season assuming he stays healthy and continues his recent improved play). That would place him 34th out of 53 in the category (qualified number of AB's). Not nearly up to the standards of his first two seasons, but if a bunch of "Avi Garcia could do that in his sleep in RF" posts come up, it will be pretty amusing. In the context of AL MLB outfielders, 48th-51st out of 197 total players. So, if that's not a starting outfielder, I'm not sure what is. Not a bad thought on the Eric Davis cards...we all thought he was going to be a stud. If you had only bought the McGwire instead! Still though, check the condition of your Davis cards...Graded PSA 10 copies of his 85 Topps cards are worth about $100 a piece. The McGwire is sitting pretty at $600 for a perfect 10 grade.

I'm not a Puig fan. Too much head case potential. But it is a business so you need to do your due diligence and consider. Due to Puig's affordable team control--(7-8M/per through 2018??), I'm not sure we have what it takes to get a deal done--unless they are looking to unload him like SD did with Shields. You think about it--our MLB-ready guys (Sanchez, Avi) aren't desirable enough, we have our few 'untouchable' prospects and I'm not sure Hahn would part with Fulmer, Burdi, Collins and certainly not Anderson to acquire a potential head case who hasn't done anything productive outside of a Physical Therapy facility in 2 years. I suppose if you could get him for May? Hawkins? Adams? Problem is, if our top prospects aren't a part of the deal, it would pretty much wipe out our 2nd tier group and possibly our 3rd! I'd much rather take on more of his salary than trade anyone in our system with any kind of value for him--but at that price, $ relief isn't the point of trading him for LA--a large haul of prospects is. I'd say pass unless the discount is HUGE.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 13, 2016 -> 02:24 AM) http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/07/2017...rankings-4.html Obvious White Sox FA targets: Bautista/Encarnacion (both too old but won't stop a team from overpaying) Josh Reddick Ian Desmond (this time the cost will be 4-5 years and $60-80 million) Kenley Jansen or Aroldis Chapman (if they trade Robertson, which is highly unlikely) Wilson Ramos/Wieters (two obvious catching targets) Dexter Fowler Mark Trumbo Michael Saunders Carlos Gomez/Colby Rasmus Neil Walker Rich Hill Not a whole lot of talent at all to spread around the entire majors, this time around. Almost nothing on the starting pitching market, just a lot of spare parts and veteran relievers... Yeah, not sure any of these would make much sense for us. Maybe Reddick? Except a FA deal would probably take him well into his 30's and involve outbidding a few other teams. Maybe if Gomez's value hits rock bottom after this year's dud, they could take a flier on him with a 1 year deal--dirt cheap--and hope for a bounceback? It would keep Eaton in RF.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 13, 2016 -> 09:06 AM) Yes, even as a utility player, Tyler Saladino has a LOT of value. He plays plus defense at the very least at three positions. Correct...but playing him as a regular would sort of eliminate what makes him valuable--his plus defense/versatility off the bench. Unless you plan on sitting someone different everyday to make room for Tyler to be in the lineup everyday. To DH him would be a wash since fielding is what he does well. I guess my point is that I think they are using him well right now in his current role.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jul 13, 2016 -> 05:43 AM) I'm also convinced that Saladino is a utility infielder. He's a good one though. See I'm with you on this one. I don't see why everyone is calling for him to be a regular. He's obviously highly regarded by the people in this forum, but he's a career .261 hitter in the minors (over a large sample 541 games)... .233 in his major league at bats. He's shown some improvement this year, but I still think he maxes out at .250 12-14 HRs, 50 RBI and about that many runs scored. He's basically the infield version of Avi Garcia with those numbers, but everyone loves him because he doesn't play everyday and the speculation is that he would be great if he did. Great guy off the bench though with his position versatility.

It's very possible that the A's asked for either Semien or Anderson to be in the deal for Shark. Do you think we made the right decision?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 05:42 PM) You just had a couple of mods in this very same sequence of posts say the organization had clearly given up on him. It's not just me. It's what the White Sox ALWAYS do. The same thing happened with Daniel Hudson after 3 starts. Micah Johnson got about 3 weeks. Carlos Sanchez got about half a season as well, despite being only 22 or 23. They give up on players too quickly or they play them 1-2 seasons too long when they can't believe they were so wrong in their talent evaluation (Beckham, Viciedo, Flowers, Avi Garcia). Somewhere in there is a middle ground that they can't seem to find, a sweet spot, where patience has to be met with results. Marcus Semien had 300 career at-bats with the White Sox. That's essentially half a season. And then they decided he wasn't going to make it. So what's the point of not trading him at that point? They weren't willing to play him everyday, even though that's exactly what rebuilding teams do. That's exactly what Billy Beane did (see below). http://m.mlb.com/news/article/188565220/as...lays-every-day/ But thanks for playing, Dick "Stalker" Allen See I disagree with this perspective. I don't think the Sox set out to actively trade the guys you mention nor do I think they gave up on the process after too short of a sample size. I think they USED the young guys to get what they wanted at that time--then got STUCK with the guys no one wanted! (Beckham, Viciedo etc). I could be wrong, but I am assuming that there are not many teams calling Hahn trying to get Carlos Sanchez nor is Rick Hahn actively shopping Sanchez as a centerpiece of a trade because he hasn't panned out. But if Hahn was looking for a Jay Bruce type player, the Reds might think to include Sanchez-- a young, cheap player with MLB experience--especially with an aging 2nd basemen on their MLB roster. Same goes for Shark. They weren't looking to trade Semien, they were looking to acquire Shark because they thought he was a top of the rotation RHP that could compliment who we have. It was a GREAT thought and one worth overpaying a little on the prospect side to get done. Semien had showed something to everyone--including the Sox. We didn't MISS the boat on him, we leveraged him. Now...that didn't pan out the way we had hoped because Shark bombed here, but I bet you a dollar, Hahn would make that trade again because the logic was sound behind it.