6 hours ago, bmags said:

So cease/Collins and Sosa? I’m interested. Cards also signed Goldschmidt long term.

Probably would need to be more like Vaughn, Cease and Sosa. But I'd do that.

3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

And they were coming off an 88 win season.  Much easier to trade away cost controlled talent when you have a playoff caliber core in place.

If you don't think this a playoff caliber core (or close to it) then you have basically already admitted defeat.

It would be absurd to consider trading Cease and Collins for one year of Mookie Betts at 28 million. My goodness.

For the white sox, future WAR is worth more than present WAR. they could merely sign Mookie without giving anything up a year from now if they were that interested. It would be one of the most nonsensical trades in MLB history.

Edited October 7, 20196 yr by Look at Ray Ray Run

3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

It would be absurd to consider trading Cease and Collins for one year of Mookie Betts at 28 million. My goodness.

For the white sox, future WAR is worth more than present WAR. they could merely sign Mookie without giving anything up a year from now if they were that interested. It would be one of the most nonsensical trades in MLB history.

I mean how much realistic value does Collins have?  An okay RP?  

3 minutes ago, cjgalloway said:

I mean how much realistic value does Collins have?  An okay RP?  

How much value did giolito have at the end of last year? Collins might suck but I'd rather be the team to figure that out.

For some reason a lot on this board have soured on Cease too because he didn't dominate from day 1. 

32 minutes ago, 3500S said:

Probably would need to be more like Vaughn, Cease and Sosa. But I'd do that.

I doubt it, but it would be good to know the packages.

1 hour ago, bmags said:

I doubt it, but it would be good to know the packages.

I am almost certain Boston would want arms, which is something the Sox need too and would rather not give up. It is possible to add a third team who really likes Vaughn to get some closer-to-the-majors arms then include Stiever and a lower level prospect.

I really don't like the idea of giving up Madrigal.

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

It would be absurd to consider trading Cease and Collins for one year of Mookie Betts at 28 million. My goodness.

For the white sox, future WAR is worth more than present WAR. they could merely sign Mookie without giving anything up a year from now if they were that interested. It would be one of the most nonsensical trades in MLB history.

Agree. We aren't trading any of our core young studs for a 1 year rental. How does anyone think this is a good idea?

If Betts could get us to the *Promised Land* next year - SECOND PLACE - then by golly, pull out all the stops to get him!!

2 hours ago, 3500S said:

If you don't think this a playoff caliber core (or close to it) then you have basically already admitted defeat.

It’s not if you trade multiple of your key cost controlled players while eating up a ton of your financial flexibility.

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

It’s not if you trade multiple of your key cost controlled players while eating up a ton of your financial flexibility.

Ok but ask yourself is Andrew Vaughn really *that* key to the Sox future? With Moncada, Eloy and soon Robert are the Sox really hurting for power? Especially power that cant really play any positions? I dont think he is that important and if you've got an opportunity to sell him off, even for a short term improvement, its probably worth it. I'd actually rather keep Stiever than Vaughn. Nothing against the bat, its just a matter of what the Sox are going to need these next three or so years.

Madrigal and Cease I see the argument against trading away very, very clearly. A player of any less caliber than Betts and I'd probably have to agree its not worth losing them just for one year. But this IS a player of Betts' caliber and like it or not that changes everything.

8 hours ago, bmags said:

I'm totally with you. I am not in this for a "he may love playing for Ricky so much that he just can't imagine playing elsewhere!"

I agree that this will never happen. But what is possible is that in one year Betts endears himself as a member of the family and the Sox miraculously open up the checkbook to keep him.

Still you have to acqurie Betts with the assumption that he's walking next year.

Just now, 3500S said:

Ok but ask yourself is Andrew Vaughn really *that* key to the Sox future? With Moncada, Eloy and soon Robert are the Sox really hurting for power? Especially power that cant really play any positions? I dont think he is that important and if you've got an opportunity to sell him off, even for a short term improvement, its probably worth it. I'd actually rather keep Stiever than Vaughn. Nothing against the bat, its just a matter of what the Sox are going to need these next three or so years.

Madrigal and Cease I see the argument against trading away very, very clearly. A player of any less caliber than Betts and I'd probably have to agree its not worth losing them just for one year. But this IS a player of Betts' caliber and like it or not that changes everything.

Madrigal, Robert, Vaughn, Cease, & Kopech are all critical to the rebuild because they can provide high end production for dirt cheap.  The moment you trade them and have to replace them via free agency, you quickly run out of money to fill all your holes and end up with a flawed roster.

For example, if you trade Cease, you basically need to add three starters this offseason and have $28M less to do it.  It doesn’t make any sense unless the price is like Stiever & Walker.

7 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Madrigal, Robert, Vaughn, Cease, & Kopech are all critical to the rebuild because they can provide high end production for dirt cheap.  The moment you trade them and have to replace them via free agency, you quickly run out of money to fill all your holes and end up with a flawed roster.

For example, if you trade Cease, you basically need to add three starters this offseason and have $28M less to do it.  It doesn’t make any sense unless the price is like Stiever & Walker.

I just dont think these guys are at all equal. Robert is clearly leads and bounds better than the rest of them and he has basically unlimited potential if he stays healthy. Kopech is just one tier below that (and by no fault of his own, Robert just has that much potential). I'm absolutely in agreement that giving up either of them is off the table unless its a cartoonishly imbalanced deal.

Cease and Madrigal are more in with what you're describing. Cheap and valuable players that would be difficult to replace. If Madrigal is a .300 hitting defensive whiz and Cease is a bonafide #3 starter you're better off keeping them. I'm willing to go a little further than most and include one of these two guys because the allure of adding a ten win player to a roster I think already has another ten win player in the making is too much to not indulge.

But how much does it really cost to find a right-handed hitter to crank bombs and not play a position? Sure Vaughn's cheap, but unlike Cease and Madrigal I dont think he's so much cheaper than free agent alternatives that he should be guarded so covetously.

Edited October 7, 20196 yr by 3500S

4 minutes ago, Tony said:

You create financial flexibility so you can afford guys like Betts. 

We've done a decent enough job of creating the financial flexibility to afford a guy like him but we haven't done a good enough job of acquiring enough surplus talent to make it possible to both trade for him and then still to be able to sign/extend him, at least assuming typical white sox esque spending limits. 

19 minutes ago, 3500S said:

I just dont think these guys are at all equal. Robert is clearly leads and bounds better than the rest of them and he has basically unlimited potential if he stays healthy. Kopech is just one tier below that (and by no fault of his own, Robert just has that much potential). I'm absolutely in agreement that giving up either of them is off the table unless its a cartoonishly imbalanced deal.

Cease and Madrigal are more in with what you're describing. Cheap and valuable players that would be difficult to replace. If Madrigal is a .300 hitting defensive whiz and Cease is a bonafide #3 starter you're better off keeping them. I'm willing to go a little further than most and include one of these two guys because the allure of adding a ten win player to a roster I think already has another ten win player in the making is too much to not indulge.

But how much does it really cost to find a right-handed hitter to crank bombs and not play a position? Sure Vaughn's cheap, but unlike Cease and Madrigal I dont think he's so much cheaper than free agent alternatives that he should be guarded so covetously.

Do you think the Mets could easily replace Pete Alonso’s five win season at 1B for close to $500k right now?  Vaughn is that type of talent potentially for us.

17 minutes ago, Tony said:

You create financial flexibility so you can afford guys like Betts. 

You create financial flexibly so you can sign guys like Betts in free agency.  You don’t trade critical cost controlled assets to pay Betts a market rate contract.

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Do you think the Mets could easily replace Pete Alonso’s five win season at 1B for close to $500k right now?  Vaughn is that type of talent potentially for us.

It feels unrealistic to expect Vaughn to break the rookie HR record.

10 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

We've done a decent enough job of creating the financial flexibility to afford a guy like him but we haven't done a good enough job of acquiring enough surplus talent to make it possible to both trade for him and then still to be able to sign/extend him, at least assuming typical white sox esque spending limits. 

That’s probably true but it’s even more of a reason to me they need to stack elite players. 

And there is big unknowns with some of those guys. The talent accumulation should have never really stopped but having now seen them give up on international talent and inability to produce from beyond round 1 in the draft this is a decent path forward. 

Now a trade of Vaughn AND cease is too much for me but assuming it could feasibly be one of Madrigal or Vaughn or cease I’d be in.

Just now, 3500S said:

It feels unrealistic to expect Vaughn to break the rookie HR record.

Vaughn was a much higher regarded prospect than Alonso prior to their drafts and while he may not hit for as much power as Pete, Andrew has a potential 70 grade hit tool that can make him equally as valuable.

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Vaughn was a much higher regarded prospect than Alonso prior to their drafts and while he may not hit for as much power as Pete, Andrew has a potential 70 grade hit tool that can make him equally as valuable.

I wish it worked like this but it doesn't. We aren't trading Zach Collins for Gavin Lux any time soon despite Collins being drafted ten spots higher. The odds of Vaughn being as outstanding as Alonso are pretty low. 

1 hour ago, Tony said:

HILARIOUS!!!!! A JERRY REINSDORF JOKE! 
 

I have no recollection of ever posting a joke about Jerry Reinsdorf!!!!!

11 minutes ago, 3500S said:

I wish it worked like this but it doesn't. We aren't trading Zach Collins for Gavin Lux any time soon despite Collins being drafted ten spots higher. The odds of Vaughn being as outstanding as Alonso are pretty low. 

Doesn’t work like what?  Collins is not on the same planet as Vaughn in terms of being a prospect, so not sure how this Lux theoretical makes any sense.  And previous draft position doesn’t matter when evaluating current prospect value, so your theoretical makes even less sense.  Also, the odds of Vaughn being close to as good as Alonso are much higher than you believe.  Vaughn is the best 1B prospect we’ve seen coming out of the draft in years.  Modern baseball suggests he can be incredibly valuable.  

23 minutes ago, bmags said:

And there is big unknowns with some of those guys. The talent accumulation should have never really stopped but having now seen them give up on international talent and inability to produce from beyond round 1 in the draft this is a decent path forward. 

This is why I have a bit of a feeling that even with Robert enduring some major league adjustments next year may be our best chance. Especially since the Astros will be losing Cole and their next two best starters are 36 and 37 years old.

As of May 1 2020 the minor league pipeline effectively runs dry and your only real hope of finding additional production comes from shrewd trades and free agency. It sucks but next year could very well be their best chance at winning a title with this core.

13 minutes ago, Thad Bosley said:

I have no recollection of ever posting a joke about Jerry Reinsdorf!!!!!

I really hope Jerry banged your wife or something, because you take the hate to a truly bizarre level.