11 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

The burden of proof here isn't on him.  All baseball wisdom would place Michael Kopech WAY above Stiever in valuation.  It is up to you to make a case or prove otherwise.

I'm sorry. What or rather who is "all baseball wisdom"? Stiever is 23 years old. Steiver has much more minor league experience than Kopech. Many clubs apparently have approached the White Sox in their interest in the guy. He throws hard and has other "stuff" that he can control. AND...... he hasn't spent a shit load of his bonus money, married and divorced a bimbo, blown out his arm requiring TJ surgery, and refused to pitch for the White Sox in the 2020 play-off season. Do you think that Kopech has made a good impression thus far in his professional career?

Just now, The Hawk said:

I'm sorry. What or rather who is "all baseball wisdom"? Stiever is 23 years old. Steiver has much more minor league experience than Kopech. Many clubs apparently have approached the White Sox in their interest in the guy. He throws hard and has other "stuff" that he can control. AND...... he hasn't spent a shit load of his bonus money, married and divorced a bimbo, blown out his arm requiring TJ surgery, and refused to pitch for the White Sox in the 2020 play-off season. Do you think that Kopech has made a good impression thus far in his professional career?

Ironic when you look at who we just hired as a manager, after firing someone who "made a good impression" by all accounts.

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

Ironic when you look at who we just hired as a manager, after firing someone who "made a good impression" by all accounts.

I'd say that they are totally different things. IF Renteria was considered a top manager, he wouldn't have been fired and when he was fired, another team would have snapped him up I'd say. Kopech was blessed by the "gods" with a million dollar arm which is the sole reason for whatever value that he has. So far, he hasn't shown squat to those who look at things beyond a million dollar arm.

17 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

I'd say that they are totally different things. IF Renteria was considered a top manager, he wouldn't have been fired and when he was fired, another team would have snapped him up I'd say. Kopech was blessed by the "gods" with a million dollar arm which is the sole reason for whatever value that he has. So far, he hasn't shown squat to those who look at things beyond a million dollar arm.

If Kopech or Stiever was offered to the 29 other teams, Kopech would get picked 35 times, no matter what his problems are.  Million dollar arms are quite literally what wins games in MLB.

49 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

I'd say that they are totally different things. IF Renteria was considered a top manager, he wouldn't have been fired and when he was fired, another team would have snapped him up I'd say. Kopech was blessed by the "gods" with a million dollar arm which is the sole reason for whatever value that he has. So far, he hasn't shown squat to those who look at things beyond a million dollar arm.

I’m not saying Renteria will get another manager job, but he can’t sign elsewhere until next offseason without compensation paid to the White Sox.

Also, Renteria didn’t get fired for leading the team to their best season in a dozen years. He was fired because Jerry decided this Spring or Summer to hire LaRussa. It may even have happened if the Sox won the World Series. It’s obvious Jerry doesn’t care about any backlash, internal or external.

Renteria will get another job in 2022 if he wants to.

 

Edited November 17, 20205 yr by South Side Hit Men

2 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I’m not saying Renteria will get another manager job, but he can’t sign elsewhere until next offseason without compensation paid to the White Sox.

Also, Renteria didn’t get fired for leading the team to their best season in a dozen years. He was fired because Jerry decided this Spring or Summer to hire LaRussa. It may even have happened if the Sox won the World Series. It’s obvious Jerry doesn’t care about any backlash, internal or external.

Renteria will get another job in 2022 if he wants to.

 

That is fine by me if he does get another baseball job. I think that all in all, Renteria is a good over-all baseball man and has some excellent strengths. I just do not think he is a very good baseball manager, especially the way he sets his line-ups up and how he sets up and uses his pitching staff. But, as a bench coach, I think he is excellent. He knows the game, obviously, and has shown himself to be good in keeping the team hustling and focused on their jobs and that says a lot to me about how valuable he is to a team. He could find another manager job I think but I don't think he is the best guy to manage the present White Sox team. Do you?

1 hour ago, The Hawk said:

That is fine by me if he does get another baseball job. I think that all in all, Renteria is a good over-all baseball man and has some excellent strengths. I just do not think he is a very good baseball manager, especially the way he sets his line-ups up and how he sets up and uses his pitching staff. But, as a bench coach, I think he is excellent. He knows the game, obviously, and has shown himself to be good in keeping the team hustling and focused on their jobs and that says a lot to me about how valuable he is to a team. He could find another manager job I think but I don't think he is the best guy to manage the present White Sox team. Do you?

I think if Hahn had a say in the matter,  Hahn would have kept Renteria at least through his current contract signed 60 games earlier. I would have agreed with that call after the season the team had. Rick earned one more year. Cooper, a coach Renteria or Hahn had no say in, was the only coach I called to be replaced during the season (he should have left when Ozzie left)..

People quibble about this or that decision, and while I certainly didn’t agree with everything, I believe a fair assessment of Renteria includes:

1. Players developed well, played hard, and respected him.

2. He created a solid winning culture, absent since the 2000s.

3. The team outperformed all expectations.

4. Hahn and or Kenny signed off on, or made the decision for the Game 3 Opener / Bullpen game strategy.

The amount of vitriol toward Rick on the board and far worse, Jerry’s paid for mouthpieces who should know better (Stone, Ozzie and Thomas), was absurd.

Based on what transpired, it appears these “media” attacks were ordered by Jerry after he decided to give his “guy” a job this Spring or Summer, after Tony called him and said he needs yet another job before the arrest news came out. The Angels would likely have fired him from whatever crony role he had there, due in part to their substance abuse issues.

I personally would much rather have Renteria than LaRussa. Bevington is the only possibly worse ex Sox manager, another Reinsdorf debacle call.Firing LaRussa was the one right call Harrelson made as GM. LaRussa won elsewhere because he inherited great teams (Hemond, Alderson, Jocketty), and he choked half the time even with the favorite (1983, 1988, 1990).

If the White Sox followed Hahn’s plan, and hired a Hinch, Boche, Alomar or Espada, it would have made sense and would have been credible. I understand most of the board disagrees with much of this, but this is opinion and I’ll stand by it.

25 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I think if Hahn had a say in the matter,  Hahn would have kept Renteria at least through his current contract signed 60 games earlier. I would have agreed with that call after the season the team had. Rick earned one more year. Cooper, a coach Renteria or Hahn had no say in, was the only coach I called to be replaced during the season (he should have left when Ozzie left)..

People quibble about this or that decision, and while I certainly didn’t agree with everything, I believe a fair assessment of Renteria includes:

1. Players developed well, played hard, and respected him.

2. He created a solid winning culture, absent since the 2000s.

3. The team outperformed all expectations.

4. Hahn and or Kenny signed off on, or made the decision for the Game 3 Opener / Bullpen game strategy.

The amount of vitriol toward Rick on the board and far worse, Jerry’s paid for mouthpieces who should know better (Stone, Ozzie and Thomas), was absurd.

Based on what transpired, it appears these “media” attacks were ordered by Jerry after he decided to give his “guy” a job this Spring or Summer, after Tony called him and said he needs yet another job before the arrest news came out. The Angels would likely have fired him from whatever crony role he had there, due in part to their substance abuse issues.

I personally would much rather have Renteria than LaRussa. Bevington is the only possibly worse ex Sox manager, another Reinsdorf debacle call.Firing LaRussa was the one right call Harrelson made as GM. LaRussa won elsewhere because he inherited great teams (Hemond, Alderson, Jocketty), and he choked half the time even with the favorite (1983, 1988, 1990).

If the White Sox followed Hahn’s plan, and hired a Hinch, Boche, Alomar or Espada, it would have made sense and would have been credible. I understand most of the board disagrees with much of this, but this is opinion and I’ll stand by it.

  That was a pretty good post. You imply a lot of things in it. Maybe you're right and maybe you're wrong. I do disagree, however, about your assessment of LaRussa as a baseball manager. He does know how to manage a baseball team. You do not win 3 World Series and seven pennants without knowing your game very well. I don't like the guy as a person. I didn't want him to be the Sox manager but as a manager, he is a better candidate than Renteria. As for a media attack being ordered by Jerry, I pretty much doubt that. When Renteria go hired the media already thought that the guy was a weak minded manager and not what the White Sox needed.

Most willing for me: Dunning, due to him likely being highly valued by rival GMs, and likely being viewed as more of a sure thing, and also having a lesser ceiling than other guys on the list.  He's easier to gauge and I think you can get an excellent player with him as the centerpiece if it's a huge contract with 2 years left or if its 1 year left.  You'd be trading high on a guy who is almost a finished product.

Depending on the deal, maybe Vaughn or Dalquist next.  Dalquist there's a ways of development to go, so if someone offers a great player, then sure.  Vaughn would be easy to trade if another team offered up a player who looks to be a near-MLB ready star at another position, but that seems unlikely.  There is likely a very short list of players I would trade Vaughn for, but if the other team offered that deal, I would do it easily.

Least willing: Kopech, with Crochet second, due to absolute ceiling.  There's a lot of risk there that you are trading the best player in the deal and a guy who is going to be contending for Cy Youngs for several years and who is talked about amongst the best of the best of the sport.  Tons of ability to give up on.

6 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

If Kopech or Stiever was offered to the 29 other teams, Kopech would get picked 35 times, no matter what his problems are.  Million dollar arms are quite literally what wins games in MLB.

Nah. They win some games in MLB but a lot of games are won by guys who throw mid-90's but have other pitches and can control them. That is where guy's like Steiver come into rotations all of the time. Also while every organization has someone in it that get a ball up to 100 mph, that velocity rarely stays long, especially with starting pitchers. Steiver is so interesting for the White Sox and those who are interested in trading for him because he has FOUR good pitches that he can control and throw for strikes. THAT is rare for a 23 year old guy. I think that you underestimate how important hitting a location is for a starting pitchers. A flame thrower like Kopech can find a job as a reliever with no more than two pitches. But a decent major league hitter will absolutely tattoo a 99-100 straight fast ball in a bad location and will do it easily. 

As you can see, I am a skeptic of Kopech as a can't miss starter in the major league. To me, he hasn't proven anything compared to Steiver, Cease, Huerer, Burdi, and several others that are in the organization right now. He's got a chance to prove himself like they all have and they all will be looked at and regarded.

44 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

Nah. They win some games in MLB but a lot of games are won by guys who throw mid-90's but have other pitches and can control them. That is where guy's like Steiver come into rotations all of the time. Also while every organization has someone in it that get a ball up to 100 mph, that velocity rarely stays long, especially with starting pitchers. Steiver is so interesting for the White Sox and those who are interested in trading for him because he has FOUR good pitches that he can control and throw for strikes. THAT is rare for a 23 year old guy. I think that you underestimate how important hitting a location is for a starting pitchers. A flame thrower like Kopech can find a job as a reliever with no more than two pitches. But a decent major league hitter will absolutely tattoo a 99-100 straight fast ball in a bad location and will do it easily. 

As you can see, I am a skeptic of Kopech as a can't miss starter in the major league. To me, he hasn't proven anything compared to Steiver, Cease, Huerer, Burdi, and several others that are in the organization right now. He's got a chance to prove himself like they all have and they all will be looked at and regarded.

What in the world has Stiever proved that Kopech hasn't?

50 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

Nah. They win some games in MLB but a lot of games are won by guys who throw mid-90's but have other pitches and can control them. That is where guy's like Steiver come into rotations all of the time. Also while every organization has someone in it that get a ball up to 100 mph, that velocity rarely stays long, especially with starting pitchers. Steiver is so interesting for the White Sox and those who are interested in trading for him because he has FOUR good pitches that he can control and throw for strikes. THAT is rare for a 23 year old guy. I think that you underestimate how important hitting a location is for a starting pitchers. A flame thrower like Kopech can find a job as a reliever with no more than two pitches. But a decent major league hitter will absolutely tattoo a 99-100 straight fast ball in a bad location and will do it easily. 

As you can see, I am a skeptic of Kopech as a can't miss starter in the major league. To me, he hasn't proven anything compared to Steiver, Cease, Huerer, Burdi, and several others that are in the organization right now. He's got a chance to prove himself like they all have and they all will be looked at and regarded.

Even throwing out the ass kicking that JS got in his brief MLB appearances last season, Kopech put up numbers at every level which were SIGNIFICANTLY better than Steiver.  

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

Even throwing out the ass kicking that JS got in his brief MLB appearances last season, Kopech put up numbers at every level which were SIGNIFICANTLY better than Steiver.  

Stiever never even pitched in AA and when he came up to the majors this year his stuff was underwhelming compared to what scouting reports said.  No idea how anyone could think his value is higher than Kopech’s.  The reality is every major publication has Kopech as a top 50 prospect still whereas Stiever has never cracked a top 100 list.  While that isn’t the end all be all, it’s a pretty good indicator of the who the more valuable prospect is.

33 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Even throwing out the ass kicking that JS got in his brief MLB appearances last season, Kopech put up numbers at every level which were SIGNIFICANTLY better than Steiver.  

He hasn't pitched in two years. Their minor league stats both were basically .500 pitchers. Stiever is a year younger so his progression is basically behind one year. Argue all that you want to but Stiever is considered a very viable major league prospect while Kopech has missed two years in his development. Do you worry at all about Kopech's injury and personal history? 

This is all apples and oranges. Stiever played collegiately and was drafted in the 5th round. Kopech was a high school phenom who was rated can't miss very early on. Two different routes to the major league. We will see who makes it. Hopefully both of them will.

4 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

He hasn't pitched in two years. Their minor league stats both were basically .500 pitchers. Stiever is a year younger so his progression is basically behind one year. Argue all that you want to but Stiever is considered a very viable major league prospect while Kopech has missed two years in his development. Do you worry at all about Kopech's injury and personal history? 

This is all apples and oranges. Stiever played collegiately and was drafted in the 5th round. Kopech was a high school phenom who was rated can't miss very early on. Two different routes to the major league. We will see who makes it. Hopefully both of them will.

You’re using minor league win-loss records to evaluate pitchers???

18 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

You’re using minor league win-loss records to evaluate pitchers???

Nobody is that stupid

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

What in the world has Stiever proved that Kopech hasn't?

That he has four quality pitches that he can throw for strikes? That he has a motion through basically five seasons in college and in the minor leagues that hasn't broken down his arm? Maybe that he doesn't marry a bimbo who takes a good chunk of his money? Stuff like that?

2 hours ago, The Hawk said:

  That was a pretty good post. You imply a lot of things in it. Maybe you're right and maybe you're wrong. I do disagree, however, about your assessment of LaRussa as a baseball manager. He does know how to manage a baseball team. You do not win 3 World Series and seven pennants without knowing your game very well. I don't like the guy as a person. I didn't want him to be the Sox manager but as a manager, he is a better candidate than Renteria. As for a media attack being ordered by Jerry, I pretty much doubt that. When Renteria go hired the media already thought that the guy was a weak minded manager and not what the White Sox needed.

I can agree LaRussa improved as a manager after his seven seasons here and his initial start in Oakland. He also had a good knowledge of the game, though was slipping at the end with the Cardinals. He is not more qualified today, ten years removed from the role, and frankly too old to travel or relate to the modern young player. Jerry said so himself last season, and he is a year older since his comments.

Jerry Reinsdorf on Tony LaRussa returning to managing, February 2020:

"Managing, it just takes an awful lot out of you. There's nothing else for him to accomplish. You know, he's won three World Series, and uh, he's in the Hall of Fame. And so, there's no reason for him to go back to managing,  and have to try to deal with people 22 years old when you're 75 years old."

6:23 mark

 

9 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I can agree LaRussa improved as a manager after his seven seasons here and his initial start in Oakland. He also had a good knowledge of the game, though was slipping at the end with the Cardinals. He is not more qualified today, ten years removed from the role, and frankly too old to travel or relate to the modern young player. Jerry said so himself last season, and he is a year older since his comments.

Jerry Reinsdorf on Tony LaRussa returning to managing, February 2020:

"Managing, it just takes an awful lot out of you. There's nothing else for him to accomplish. You know, he's won three World Series, and uh, he's in the Hall of Fame. And so, there's no reason for him to go back to managing,  and have to try to deal with people 22 years old when you're 75 years old."

6:23 mark

 

 

    I think that I've said that I didn't want Tony LaRussa for the White Sox manager. I did want Renteria fired though. He just isn't a very good baseball manager in my estimation. But it looks like we are basically stuck with him and he does know his way around a baseball dugout. We'll see if he can handle the job. After all, it isn't rocket science. Its baseball, after all. A Kid's game:)

9 hours ago, The Hawk said:

That he has four quality pitches that he can throw for strikes? That he has a motion through basically five seasons in college and in the minor leagues that hasn't broken down his arm? Maybe that he doesn't marry a bimbo who takes a good chunk of his money? Stuff like that?

You are really trying to use a sexist trope to disqualify a baseball pitcher here?  And then being ignorant enough on this topic to not know that she may well have more money than he does?

10 hours ago, The Hawk said:

That he has four quality pitches that he can throw for strikes? That he has a motion through basically five seasons in college and in the minor leagues that hasn't broken down his arm? Maybe that he doesn't marry a bimbo who takes a good chunk of his money? Stuff like that?

Marry a bimbo?  Who the fuck cares who he marries, this is baseball not The Bachelor.