An ominous future...

[caulfield12]

On 8/4/2025 at 11:19 PM, Sox guy said:

I became a fan because of Caitlin Clark, but then I saw how dreadful the level of play was.  No thanks.  and they all want raises too.  They're lucky the nba props them up. Without them, the league wouldn't exist.

 

as far as a 2027 labor stoppage goes, I do think the Sox will be good by then, so I hope things can be worked out.  I wasn't too much of a fan in 94, so I didn't really care about the wasted opportunity at the time, but now it's excruciatingly painful to see what might have been.  IMO, 1994 hurt us more than any other team, even more than the Spos.  I think we'd have won the pennant at minimum, probably the whole thing.  That year had a good ad campaign too, featuring Jim McMahon and MJ.  But it was all for naught

No longer the case with their new media rights deal, which the NBA negotiated to their own advantage due to the controlling shares in the W.

Look at the value of Golden State, Conn as there are already two competing buyers, LA, NY Liberty and the Fever.

They've all gone from tens of millions a decade ago to the top franchises now being worth between $300-400 million.

Three more teams being added and another 3-5 more on the horizon.

[The Mighty Mite]

On 7/29/2025 at 4:33 PM, Lip Man 1 said:

Because despite having a rabid fan base and usually drawing very well, ownership has been cutting payroll and refuses to go after quality free agents. 

My broadcast partner is from the St. Louis area and he's furious at Cardinal ownership/management. 

Something is going on in St.Louis, failed to sell out any of this past weekend games against the Cubs. I turned on the game last night and couldn’t believe how many empty seats, only 30,000 showed up, that’s unheard of in Redbird land.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said:

Something is going on in St.Louis, failed to sell out any of this past weekend games against the Cubs. I turned on the game last night and couldn’t believe how many empty seats, only 30,000 showed up, that’s unheard of in Redbird land.

Fed up with dumping contracts...half measures...getting left behind by Milwaukee and now the Cubs.

Collapse of the Arenado/Goldschmidt teams.

Lots of youngsters like Jordan Walker scuffling.  Dumping some of their long time studs like Helsley whole scuffling around the .500 mark go for most of the season felt like White Flag trades.  The leadership change in the front office isn't being all that well received either.

 

29% fall in attendance

2025 18th 29000

2024  7th 36000

2023  4th 40000

2022  2nd 41000

Edited August 11, 2025 by caulfield12

[Lip Man 1]

4 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said:

Something is going on in St.Louis, failed to sell out any of this past weekend games against the Cubs. I turned on the game last night and couldn’t believe how many empty seats, only 30,000 showed up, that’s unheard of in Redbird land.

Wasn't it pouring rain during most of the day in St. Louis?

[The Mighty Mite]

Just now, Lip Man 1 said:

Wasn't it pouring rain during most of the day in St. Louis?

I don’t know but they count seats sold not actual bodies at the game, normally there would 40,000+ seats sold for a Cubs-Cards game.

[nrockway]

5 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

No longer the case with their new media rights deal, which the NBA negotiated to their own advantage due to the controlling shares in the W.

Look at the value of Golden State, Conn as there are already two competing buyers, LA, NY Liberty and the Fever.

They've all gone from tens of millions a decade ago to the top franchises now being worth between $300-400 million.

Three more teams being added and another 3-5 more on the horizon.

Yeah, I think the skill level is pretty good and the game is reminiscent of 90s NBA in some ways. More scoring from all across the floor rather than solely 3s and free throws. 
 

I think they’re way too physical though and the referees just let them play. It’s a finesse game. I don’t think anybody really wants to watch that. Watch ufc if you wanna see that. It’s not even just “physical” it’s a lot of cheap shots. The referees see it and ignore it. 

[Kyyle23]

20 minutes ago, nrockway said:

Yeah, I think the skill level is pretty good and the game is reminiscent of 90s NBA in some ways. More scoring from all across the floor rather than solely 3s and free throws. 
 

I think they’re way too physical though and the referees just let them play. It’s a finesse game. I don’t think anybody really wants to watch that. Watch ufc if you wanna see that. It’s not even just “physical” it’s a lot of cheap shots. The referees see it and ignore it. 

Feels like everyone is noticing how rough it’s been the last couple years.  Usually that changes a few things on the ref side that everyone will dislike equally, however it keeps players safer 

[nrockway]

10 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Feels like everyone is noticing how rough it’s been the last couple years.  Usually that changes a few things on the ref side that everyone will dislike equally, however it keeps players safer 

I guess some baseball fans miss the collisions at home plate and stuff like the following video:

but I don't. that's what football is for. 

lol at the video being age-restricted. 1974 Rangers vs Indians, Lenny Randle decking the pitcher Milt Wilcox on his way to first base.

[Kyyle23]

6 minutes ago, nrockway said:

I guess some baseball fans miss the collisions at home plate and stuff like the following video:

but I don't. that's what football is for. 

lol at the video being age-restricted. 1974 Rangers vs Indians, Lenny Randle decking the pitcher Milt Wilcox on his way to first base.

One of the craziest funniest drag bunts in history 

 

while I have to admit there was a very exciting aspect of the home plate collision, the damage that those collisions caused far outweighed the benefits.  Catchers shouldn’t get trucked while waiting and looking for the ball

[77 Hitmen]

5 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said:

Something is going on in St.Louis, failed to sell out any of this past weekend games against the Cubs. I turned on the game last night and couldn’t believe how many empty seats, only 30,000 showed up, that’s unheard of in Redbird land.

MLB is more and more becoming a sport for the mega metropolises where teams bring in big bucks.   Mid-market and small market teams can no longer sustain success and fan support/fan interest will suffer outside of the biggest cities.  It looks like the Cardinals are sliding into mediocrity as part of this trend.  Same with the Twins - a team that has long put together competitive teams.  Now they're deeply in debt and have blown everything up at the trade deadline.  Fan support used to be strong in the Twin Cities and it's been sliding in recent years.  

Milwaukee has been a total outlier and shouldn't be used as "proof" that there isn't a competitive balance issue in the league.  Cleveland and Tampa Bay are good at fielding winning teams, but then every couple of years they have to start all over again when most of their good players "graduate" to one of the big market teams.  The latest example of this is Shane Bieber.

[The Mighty Mite]

16 minutes ago, 77 Hitmen said:

MLB is more and more becoming a sport for the mega metropolises where teams bring in big bucks.   Mid-market and small market teams can no longer sustain success and fan support/fan interest will suffer outside of the biggest cities.  It looks like the Cardinals are sliding into mediocrity as part of this trend.  Same with the Twins - a team that has long put together competitive teams.  Now they're deeply in debt and have blown everything up at the trade deadline.  Fan support used to be strong in the Twin Cities and it's been sliding in recent years.  

Milwaukee has been a total outlier and shouldn't be used as "proof" that there isn't a competitive balance issue in the league.  Cleveland and Tampa Bay are good at fielding winning teams, but then every couple of years they have to start all over again when most of their good players "graduate" to one of the big market teams.  The latest example of this is Shane Bieber.

At some the point high ticket prices along with the prices of everything else at the ballparks will reach a point where fans will say enough is enough, this just might be what is going on in St. Louis and other small market clubs.

Edited August 11, 2025 by The Mighty Mite

[southsider2k5]

2 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said:

At some the point high ticket prices along with the prices of everything else at the ballparks will reach a point where fans will say enough is enough, this just might be what is going on in St. Louis and other small market clubs.

Eh.  The first time I remember reading this was said about baseball was when Babe Ruth got a salary that was higher than the President of the United States, and the media had a field day with it.

[The Mighty Mite]

32 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Eh.  The first time I remember reading this was said about baseball was when Babe Ruth got a salary that was higher than the President of the United States, and the media had a field day with it.

If ticket prices went up, they didn’t go up much, we could go to Sox or Cubs game in the late 1950s for a dollar for an unreserved grandstand seat and 75 cents to sit in the bleachers.

Kids paid 10 cents for a bus or L ride to the ballparks.

 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2025 by The Mighty Mite

[southsider2k5]

18 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

If ticket prices went up, they didn’t go up much, we could go to Sox or Cubs game in the late 1950s for a dollar for an unreserved grandstand seat and 75 cents to sit in the bleachers.

Kids paid 10 cents for a bus or L ride to the ballparks.

 

 

 

Sure, and now someone making six figures doesn't make them rich either.  Times have changed.  Sports never seem to get hit.

[nrockway]

5 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

One of the craziest funniest drag bunts in history 

 

while I have to admit there was a very exciting aspect of the home plate collision, the damage that those collisions caused far outweighed the benefits.  Catchers shouldn’t get trucked while waiting and looking for the ball

that O'Neil Cruz injury vs the Sox last season was tough to watch. I agree it's exciting, just not worth it. 

[Kyyle23]

9 minutes ago, nrockway said:

that O'Neil Cruz injury vs the Sox last season was tough to watch. I agree it's exciting, just not worth it. 

By all accounts Ray Fosse was having a awesome career when Pete Rose ended it -in an all star game-

[caulfield12]

6 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

Feels like everyone is noticing how rough it’s been the last couple years.  Usually that changes a few things on the ref side that everyone will dislike equally, however it keeps players safer 

Arguably four of the Top Ten players are out with extended injuries…Reese at least in terms of name recognition.

Clark, Collier (MVP favorite), Stewart, Reese

Paige Bueckers has been hurt a lot too…and they’re not guarding her 94 feet with double teams and traps like they do with Clark.

[caulfield12]

5 hours ago, 77 Hitmen said:

MLB is more and more becoming a sport for the mega metropolises where teams bring in big bucks.   Mid-market and small market teams can no longer sustain success and fan support/fan interest will suffer outside of the biggest cities.  It looks like the Cardinals are sliding into mediocrity as part of this trend.  Same with the Twins - a team that has long put together competitive teams.  Now they're deeply in debt and have blown everything up at the trade deadline.  Fan support used to be strong in the Twin Cities and it's been sliding in recent years.  

Milwaukee has been a total outlier and shouldn't be used as "proof" that there isn't a competitive balance issue in the league.  Cleveland and Tampa Bay are good at fielding winning teams, but then every couple of years they have to start all over again when most of their good players "graduate" to one of the big market teams.  The latest example of this is Shane Bieber.

They simply couldn’t take the risk of an extension without major incentives.

Naylor gone, Kwan likely out soon (trade in offseason) as they turn to impressive minor league depth.

 

Baltimore broke through for two years…Cleveland could make the WC.

Seattle and SD are decidedly not first tier markets.  Detroit as well this year.

But it’s really really tough now at below a $150 million payroll.

Fwiw the A’s will be a real interesting case with their young lineup.

[Sox guy]

I don't know what I'd do if the Sox blew it up again, it's already painful to see Sale, Cease, Crochet, etc. on other teams. If they take this current crop away from us, I might be done.  Having aaa teams within MLB is ridiculous.  

On 8/11/2025 at 3:24 PM, The Mighty Mite said:

 

Kids paid 10 cents for a bus or L ride to the ballparks.

 

 

 

I'll never forget the first time I was informed that the South Side used to be different in the old days.  I was a kid, and an older person told me about how kids and teens would take the 63rd street bus all the way to the lake for a day at the beach.  He said the busses were packed with youth with their beach gear, a festive atmosphere going past streets like Kedsie, California, Western, Halsted, on the way east.  It was anathema to me that those areas were safe enough for kids from out west to travel thru there on the cta.  Mind blowing even, I couldn't imagine those spots looking any different.  When I think of streets like Racine and Loomis, I definitely get a different picture based on experience.

 

Recently, another viet nam vet told me about where he grew up on the SE side, and my response was "oh, the Wild Hunneds", as it's known today. It wasn't like that in his day, polarly different.  

Edited August 14, 2025 by Sox guy

[77 Hitmen]

I didn't see a more recent thread about the upcoming CBA expiration and expected work stoppage.  So, my apologies if this has been posted elsewhere or should go in another thread.

The Athletic has conducted a fan survey and 68% of respondents are in favor of a salary cap and floor system.   77% expect some games to be missed in 2027.   What do fans say about a lockout affecting their fandom:  20% say Significantly, 47% say Somewhat, and 33% say Not At All.  

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/7073638/2026/03/02/mlb-salary-cap-fan-survey-2026/

[Lip Man 1]

21 minutes ago, 77 Hitmen said:

I didn't see a more recent thread about the upcoming CBA expiration and expected work stoppage.  So, my apologies if this has been posted elsewhere or should go in another thread.

The Athletic has conducted a fan survey and 68% of respondents are in favor of a salary cap and floor system.   77% expect some games to be missed in 2027.   What do fans say about a lockout affecting their fandom:  20% say Significantly, 47% say Somewhat, and 33% say Not At All.  

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/7073638/2026/03/02/mlb-salary-cap-fan-survey-2026/

That survey also reported the fans blame the owners for the situation.

You aren't going to see a salary cap, the MLBPA will die on that hill before they ever agree to it (and rightly so in my opinion...)

[Eminor3rd]

On 7/17/2025 at 1:54 PM, 77 Hitmen said:

What I'd like to know about is the reports that some teams (including the White Sox) have accumulated a sizable amount of debt.  One of the earmarks for the infusion of cash by Ishbia into this organization over the next 2 years is reportedly to pay down the team's debt.  Also, wasn't it mentioned in another thread that the Twins have a sizable debt?

What is causing these teams to go into debt?  Was it from operating expense during Covid?  The collapse of money flowing in from RSNs?   Other factors?  And if teams aren't making money, why are the payrolls of some teams approaching the stratosphere?  Are some owners like Steve Cohen (Mets) and Mark Walter (Dodgers) dipping into their personal fortunes to bankroll their teams?  Or is it that some teams (mostly in the biggest markets) are still raking in the dough while other teams are struggling with revenue streams drying up?  I know some teams like the Braves and Cubs are bringing in a lot of money from the entertainment developments around their ballpark.

I'm not asking this as someone who is pro-owners or pro-players union, I just want to know what's really going on with the economics of MLB as we head to a possible in a year and a half.

Primarily, it’s the RSN problem. The MLB actually protects the teams fairly well for external catastrophes like Covid by maintaining investments that serve as “rainy day” funds for the teams.

I’ve got direct firsthand experience in this realm. From what I’ve seen, I think most fans would be surprised at how much of the top line revenue that the average team earns goes to player payroll. There is very little, if any profit leftover unless a team is openly tanking, Yankees/dodgers/Red Sox excepted. Many teams actually do give their GMs the ability to tap into whatever revenues are available, meaning that the budget is effectively cash neutral. Some insist on maintaining a profit, but unless you’re the marlins, it’s a relatively slim one. 

The pop of the TV bubble has created a real problem. The average team just watched ~$50m of easy, fixed revenue disappear over the course of a couple years, which is something in the neighborhood 10-30% of the total depending upon the team and market. Player salaries have not gone down in a reaction to that, of course, and so it’s absolutely the case that teams have had to choose to cut payroll or take on debt.

Now, that does NOT mean that the owners are victims. The value of their investment is found in the appreciation of the franchise asset itself and the opportunities and leverage it creates to make other types of investments. But it is still true that operating on the thin liquid margins of the franchise itself does expose them to taking on debt when market conditions tank.

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, Eminor3rd said:

Primarily, it’s the RSN problem. The MLB actually protects the teams fairly well for external catastrophes like Covid by maintaining investments that serve as “rainy day” funds for the teams.

I’ve got direct firsthand experience in this realm. From what I’ve seen, I think most fans would be surprised at how much of the top line revenue that the average team earns goes to player payroll. There is very little, if any profit leftover unless a team is openly tanking, Yankees/dodgers/Red Sox excepted. Many teams actually do give their GMs the ability to tap into whatever revenues are available, meaning that the budget is effectively cash neutral. Some insist on maintaining a profit, but unless you’re the marlins, it’s a relatively slim one. 

The pop of the TV bubble has created a real problem. The average team just watched ~$50m of easy, fixed revenue disappear over the course of a couple years, which is something in the neighborhood 10-30% of the total depending upon the team and market. Player salaries have not gone down in a reaction to that, of course, and so it’s absolutely the case that teams have had to choose to cut payroll or take on debt.

Now, that does NOT mean that the owners are victims. The value of their investment is found in the appreciation of the franchise asset itself and the opportunities and leverage it creates to make other types of investments. But it is still true that operating on the thin liquid margins of the franchise itself does expose them to taking on debt when market conditions tank.

I'm sure that these millionaires and billionaires and Fortune 500 companies that are involved can easily take on debt and do so for a very, very long time.

Reminds me of when Lamar Hunt owned the Chiefs in the early days, it was reported he lost a million dollars one year. His father H.L. Hunt, who was extremely rich from oil and gas, was asked about this and he said, (paraphrasing). 'That means he can only lose that amount of money for another hundred years...' 

And again as was documented in the book The Lords of the Realm by John Helyar it's hard to take any numbers owners produce seriously given the way they and their accountants can manipulate them. 

Only one team has to produce and open their books, the Braves, which they recently did, and those numbers showed they were making a fortune. 

I'll have more sympathy for owners when they allow their books to be examined by certified independent forensic accountants and their like. If those people say they are losing money and badly then absolutely I'll have to rethink my position. 

 

Edited 9 hours ago by Lip Man 1

[caulfield12]

55 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I'm sure that these millionaires and billionaires and Fortune 500 companies that are involved can easily take on debt and do so for a very, very long time.

Reminds me of when Lamar Hunt owned the Chiefs in the early days, it was reported he lost a million dollars one year. His father H.L. Hunt, who was extremely rich from oil and gas, was asked about this and he said, (paraphrasing). 'That means he can only lose that amount of money for another hundred years...' 

And again as was documented in the book The Lords of the Realm by John Helyar it's hard to take any numbers owners produce seriously given the way they and their accountants can manipulate them. 

Only one team has to produce and open their books, the Braves, which they recently did, and those numbers showed they were making a fortune. 

I'll have more sympathy for owners when they allow their books to be examined by certified independent forensic accountants and their like. If those people say they are losing money and badly then absolutely I'll have to rethink my position. 

 

The majority of teams owning their own broadcasting networks AND with significant investments in surrounding ballpark villages/entertainment districts are making a killing.

See Braves/Atlanta.

But that's only around 12 teams.

 

And that's not even counting gambling/casino money through partnerships.  The huge expansion of MLB Intl, such as Canada and Japan as well as the huge growth in the WBC.  Mexico will eventually get a big league team, too.

 

(But sure White Sox, KC and Twins are struggling...although the Tigers are hardly hurting if they're up to $230-240 million in payroll. 

The White Sox are down $35 million on RSN money from all available reporting. But eventually, that will get evened out as every team becomes part of Disney+/ESPN so the overall value of the package per team will certainly increase.)

 

 

And comparatively NBA valuations are REALLY exploding.

StASmith was fighting with Zion's defenders again online and cited the $2.95 valuation of the Pelicans as #29/30 in the NBA.  Padres are right in the middle of the pack and they will fetch around $2.5-3.0 billion.

Edited 8 hours ago by caulfield12

[Eminor3rd]

41 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I'm sure that these millionaires and billionaires and Fortune 500 companies that are involved can easily take on debt and do so for a very, very long time.

Reminds me of when Lamar Hunt owned the Chiefs in the early days, it was reported he lost a million dollars one year. His father H.L. Hunt, who was extremely rich from oil and gas, was asked about this and he said, (paraphrasing). 'That means he can only lose that amount of money for another hundred years...' 

And again as was documented in the book The Lords of the Realm by John Helyar it's hard to take any numbers owners produce seriously given the way they and their accountants can manipulate them. 

Only one team has to produce and open their books, the Braves, which they recently did, and those numbers showed they were making a fortune. 

I'll have more sympathy for owners when they allow their books to be examined by certified independent forensic accountants and their like. If those people say they are losing money and badly then absolutely I'll have to rethink my position. 

 

As good as that book is, it’s from 1994, which is a period of time that doesn’t represent the current economic model well at all. The TV bubble began to form soon after that, right around the turn of the century, leading revenues and salaries both to shoot up rapidly. The Braves we’re an early outlier prior to that time, with their unique shared ownership with TBS, an extremely lucrative situation that was a competitive advantage, particularly in the fact that it allowed them to effectively capture a drastically larger fan territory than any other team in the league (in terms of geography), which coincided nicely with their extended competitive run.

I want to make it clear that I do not think the owners deserve “sympathy,” and I would never suggest that they aren’t doing very well with their investments. I would suggest, however, that the economic balance between the players union and the teams (which is subtly but important different than “owners”) may actually in a pretty good/balanced place. The players union has done an incredibly good job of ensuring that the players are getting about as much of the pie as they can without destabilizing the teams and toppling the business model entirely.

This shouldn’t stop either side from continuing to fight aggressively, if only to keep the other in check. But in general, I don’t think fans should put much stock in any of the narratives they are subjected too, because that’s all they are: PR leverage points designed to manipulate the fans into supporting someone who isn’t really taking their own interests into consideration at all. 

Edited 8 hours ago by Eminor3rd