September 21, 200421 yr After a long and endurring season, after all of the pain we as Sox fans have gone through since 2000, I've finally come to terms and agreed with this statement. People say that Kenny 'tries' to win. Well, trying isn't f***ing good enough any more. Every team has injuries, hell, even teams within the races have had critical injuries - (Oakland with Chavez, New York with Brown, Minny with Mauer/Koskie/Hunter). It's time to put up or shut up for Kenny, no more of this 'trying' bulls***... Good stuff Keith. I agree, 2005 is a defining season for Williams and I'll put Guillen in that category as well. If the Sox acquire Guillen's types of players, all things being equal it should definitely show what calibre manager he is.
September 21, 200421 yr Eh, I'd rather get Pavano... Haha, you know what I meant. PAVANO............there.
September 21, 200421 yr Disagree very much Garcia Pavano = Hudson Buehrle = Zito Contreras Garland = Redman(and that's being nice) The A's staff is the best in the majors...no one can touch them. Right on A's still got a sick staff. They are loaded wiht pitching. No one in the AL come close to that
September 21, 200421 yr Disagree very much Garcia Pavano = Hudson Buehrle = Zito Contreras Garland = Redman(and that's being nice) The A's staff is the best in the majors...no one can touch them. What?! Disagree very much? Garcia has more K's, less BB's, lower WHIP than Mulder. Lower ERA by 30 points. Advantage: Garcia Pavano has more K's/inning and less BB's/inning than Hudson. Lower ERA by 25 points although he does pitch in the NL. Lower WHIP than Hudson. Advantage: Pavano Buehrle identical K's to Zito, but less BB's and a lower ERA while playing at a field where HR's are hit at a greater rate than anywhere else. More innings per start. Buehrle has lower WHIP than Zito. Advantage: Buehrle I can't really argue that Contreras is better than Harden. But with better control he's just as if not more capable than him. He needs work. Advantage: Harden Redmond lower ERA by 18 points, Garland more IP/start. Garland more K's/inning, less BB's/inning. Garland lower WHIP by 10 points. I'm going to give it to Garland because he has to pitch in the Cell. Advantage: Garland
September 21, 200421 yr Right on A's still got a sick staff. They are loaded wiht pitching. No one in the AL come close to that Read my post.
September 21, 200421 yr We had Thomas and Maggs back then, why didn't we take advantage? We were in first place with them...
September 21, 200421 yr Disagree very much Garcia Pavano = Hudson Buehrle = Zito Contreras Garland = Redman(and that's being nice) The A's staff is the best in the majors...no one can touch them. Yes, in the regular season they are the best in the league. It's just too bad the A's rotation is allegic to winning in October.
September 21, 200421 yr What?! Disagree very much? Garcia has more K's, less BB's, lower WHIP than Mulder. Lower ERA by 30 points. Advantage: Garcia Pavano has more K's/inning and less BB's/inning than Hudson. Lower ERA by 25 points although he does pitch in the NL. Lower WHIP than Hudson. Advantage: Pavano Buehrle identical K's to Zito, but less BB's and a lower ERA while playing at a field where HR's are hit at a greater rate than anywhere else. More innings per start. Buehrle has lower WHIP than Zito. Advantage: Buehrle I can't really argue that Contreras is better than Harden. But with better control he's just as if not more capable than him. He needs work. Advantage: Harden Redmond lower ERA by 18 points, Garland more IP/start. Garland more K's/inning, less BB's/inning. Garland lower WHIP by 10 points. I'm going to give it to Garland because he has to pitch in the Cell. Advantage: Garland And yet the A's win, and the Sox don't. The only thing I can figure is, one team gets it done in the clutch and the other doesn't. White Sox are famous for having a bunch of guys with great statistics and the team finishing in 2nd place. I think your analysis is good, though. It goes to show both staffs are very talented. I wonder how the bullpens stack up? They've got that nasty guy Mecir out there, he makes the Sox hitters look like little girls at the plate.
September 21, 200421 yr White Sox are famous for having a bunch of guys with great statistics and the team finishing in 2nd place. Exactly jim. I do however love this staff kenny has put together, sox need to add one more starter and it's going to be one heck of a rotation. However we need bullpen help, hopefully adding two new arms.
September 21, 200421 yr Exactly jim. I do however love this staff kenny has put together, sox need to add one more starter and it's going to be one heck of a rotation. However we need bullpen help, hopefully adding two new arms. Yes, you are right on the money. One additional starter and two new arms for the bullpen. Man, I watched that guy Lidge with the Astros the other night vs. the Brewers - the 1-0 game Clemens won. Lidge is absolutely ... what is the word you guys use here ... "sick". Unbelievable stuff. Sox need a guy like him, but so do 29 other teams. I would love to see Shingo in a selective 7th/8th inning role, and a strike throwing power arm in the 9th. Of course, I'd like to win the lottery too.
September 21, 200421 yr Yes, you are right on the money. One additional starter and two new arms for the bullpen. Man, I watched that guy Lidge with the Astros the other night vs. the Brewers - the 1-0 game Clemens won. Lidge is absolutely ... what is the word you guys use here ... "sick". Unbelievable stuff. Sox need a guy like him, but so do 29 other teams. I would love to see Shingo in a selective 7th/8th inning role, and a strike throwing power arm in the 9th. Of course, I'd like to win the lottery too. Lidge's stuff is disgusting. Unfortunately for them he's their only good reliever. I'd like to see them add a closer flame throwing or not, unfortunately the only 2 descent closers out there are Percival and Benitez. We might have to look for a closer by trade.
September 21, 200421 yr Garcia has more K's, less BB's, lower WHIP than Mulder. Lower ERA by 30 points. Advantage: Garcia Redmond lower ERA by 18 points, Garland more IP/start. Garland more K's/inning, less BB's/inning. Garland lower WHIP by 10 points. I'm going to give it to Garland because he has to pitch in the Cell. Advantage: Garland I still find it hard to agree with Garcia being better then Mulder. Mulder hasn't won fewer then 15 games since 2000(when he went 9-10 in his rookie campaign). Garcia hasn't won 15 games since 2002, and even then, he was on a team that won 90+ games. His ERA has not been below 4.00 since 2001(when he had the best ERA in the AL)...meanwhile, this is the first time Mulder's ERA has been above 4.00 since 2000(his rookie season). At the very most...I say it is a draw, and I still think I'd take Mulder over Garcia, if given the chance. Pavano has more K's/inning and less BB's/inning than Hudson. Lower ERA by 25 points although he does pitch in the NL. Lower WHIP than Hudson. Advantage: Pavano Again, my same argument applies This is Pavano's first full year of good starting, and Hudson has been doing this for a few years now. Not only do you have to add .3 points or so to Pavano's ERA to make it equal, you probably have to add .4 or .5 more for him considering he is coming from a pitcher's park and going to Coors Field East. Tim Hudson is a stud, plain and simple...I think I'd rather have him on my staff then Pavano, but either are good. The fact tha tyou have brought up the stats made me reconsider on this one. Hudson is much better then Pavano. Buehrle identical K's to Zito, but less BB's and a lower ERA while playing at a field where HR's are hit at a greater rate than anywhere else. More innings per start. Buehrle has lower WHIP than Zito. Advantage: Buehrle Zito has won a Cy Young before. He can be a great pitcher, but has been hit harder in the past 2 years. Same can be said with Buehrle. That's why I said equal...because they are. I can't really argue that Contreras is better than Harden. But with better control he's just as if not more capable than him. He needs work. Advantage: Harden Agreed. You also have to realize that Contreras is 32(and he really could be older...we don't exactly know)...he will not get much better...people treat this guy like he is some young guy who can still improve and turn the corner, but he is really to the point where he is not going to change his gameplan all that much from game to game. Meanwhile, Harden is 10 years younger then Contreras, meaning that he could become a very, very good pitcher in the near future. Redmond lower ERA by 18 points, Garland more IP/start. Garland more K's/inning, less BB's/inning. Garland lower WHIP by 10 points. I'm going to give it to Garland because he has to pitch in the Cell. Advantage: Garland And I'm going to say equal because they are equal pitchers. The only real advantage Garland has is that he's only 24...but even at 24, he's pretty much a veteran, and he knows what's going on. He should be better then an ERA of 5, especially with 3 years of experience under his belt. So...revised starters Garcia = Mulder Pavano Buehrle = Zito Contreras Garland = Redman
September 21, 200421 yr Lidge's stuff is disgusting. Unfortunately for them he's their only good reliever. I'd like to see them add a closer flame throwing or not, unfortunately the only 2 descent closers out there are Percival and Benitez. We might have to look for a closer by trade. There's Urbina too AND KOCH!!!!
September 21, 200421 yr There's Urbina too AND KOCH!!!! Woops, completely forgot about him. Your right, koch is a stud.
September 21, 200421 yr What?! Disagree very much? Garcia has more K's, less BB's, lower WHIP than Mulder. Lower ERA by 30 points. Advantage: Garcia Pavano has more K's/inning and less BB's/inning than Hudson. Lower ERA by 25 points although he does pitch in the NL. Lower WHIP than Hudson. Advantage: Pavano Buehrle identical K's to Zito, but less BB's and a lower ERA while playing at a field where HR's are hit at a greater rate than anywhere else. More innings per start. Buehrle has lower WHIP than Zito. Advantage: Buehrle I can't really argue that Contreras is better than Harden. But with better control he's just as if not more capable than him. He needs work. Advantage: Harden Redmond lower ERA by 18 points, Garland more IP/start. Garland more K's/inning, less BB's/inning. Garland lower WHIP by 10 points. I'm going to give it to Garland because he has to pitch in the Cell. Advantage: Garland That is a very good analysis but like Jim said, one team gets it done the other doesn't. I also believe its clutch that makes the difference and especially the bullpen, but how many times have you seen our pitchers in a duel and end up on the losing side, not becuase the team couldn't get it done but because the pitcher himself didn't give the team the chance. Which usually means, he rolled over first and the other team didn't look back... Lets not mention all the times Jackson let inherited runners score.
September 21, 200421 yr That is a very good analysis but like Jim said, one team gets it done the other doesn't. I also believe its clutch that makes the difference and especially the bullpen, but how many times have you seen our pitchers in a duel and end up on the losing side, not becuase the team couldn't get it done but because the pitcher himself didn't give the team the chance. Which usually means, he rolled over first and the other team didn't look back... Lets not mention all the times Jackson let inherited runners score. We've really gotten off my original point. Lots of people want to completely gut this team and start over, bottom up. I say, we add that big free agent pitcher, we have a very solid starting rotation to began next season with. Something that cannot be said about the previous two seasons.
September 21, 200421 yr I say, we add that big free agent pitcher, we have a very solid starting rotation to began next season with. Something that cannot be said about the previous two seasons. I agree 100 percent. Retool don't rebuild. This team can be a serious contender in 05 if they add a top of the rotation starter.
September 21, 200421 yr We've really gotten off my original point. Lots of people want to completely gut this team and start over, bottom up. I say, we add that big free agent pitcher, we have a very solid starting rotation to began next season with. Something that cannot be said about the previous two seasons. I am sorry but you can have the best starting pitchers on the market but without a good bullpen and a decent consistent offense, you won't win.
September 22, 200421 yr Zito has won a Cy Young before. He can be a great pitcher, but has been hit harder in the past 2 years. Same can be said with Buehrle. That's why I said equal...because they are. Zito's career era is almost a half a run better so that is my answer on who is better. Also how did zito get hit hard last year? Far from it.
September 22, 200421 yr I am sorry but you can have the best starting pitchers on the market but without a good bullpen and a decent consistent offense, you won't win. I know this wasn't directed towards me, but I'd like to say that, IMHO, having an excellent bullpen is much, much more important, over the course of a season, than having one stud starter. I've said that my ideal offseason would be to trade one of Lee/Konerko, fill in the team with guys like Koskie, Hairston, Drew - grinders and lefty power bats, OBP guys - sign a solid starter, and sign a stud reliever - and also add a reliever via the Konerko/Lee trade.
September 22, 200421 yr I still find it hard to agree with Garcia being better then Mulder. Mulder hasn't won fewer then 15 games since 2000(when he went 9-10 in his rookie campaign). Garcia hasn't won 15 games since 2002, and even then, he was on a team that won 90+ games. His ERA has not been below 4.00 since 2001(when he had the best ERA in the AL)...meanwhile, this is the first time Mulder's ERA has been above 4.00 since 2000(his rookie season). At the very most...I say it is a draw, and I still think I'd take Mulder over Garcia, if given the chance. Mulder's ERA up to 4.25 now. :puke
September 22, 200421 yr Mulder's ERA up to 4.25 now. :puke Joke's on you, because I'd still take him over Freddy. As I said before...this is the first time since 2000 that Mulder's ERA over the course of a season has been above 4.00...and the first time Freddy Garcia's ERA over the course of a season has been below 4.00 since 2002. Also...FWIW...Mulder is 27, while Garcia is 29. Not that 2 years is a huge difference, but there is a difference in age.
September 22, 200421 yr I was just joking, the smiley! I agree that Mulder is amazing. I know. That's why I said joke's on you. OK, now I'm just backtracking...lol
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.