Church thoughts

[Wong & Owens]

4. On gay marriage: It seems that some people view rights as a zero sum game. It isn't. Not to get on a rant here but if I want to spend the rest of my life with my boyfriend, why shouldn't I be granted the same rights and responsibilities as my friend who got married but to someone of the opposite sex?

You absolutely should, Wino, and any American who disagrees is completely ignorant of the tenets this country was founded on. "...all men are created equal."

 

To refuse to grant the civil rights enjoyed by straight people to gays, is fundamentally no different than slavery, prohibiting women from voting, etc.

 

Fortunately, as history tells us, the types of people that would support the notion that gays shouldn't be treated equally, or that women shouldn't vote and stay at home dependent on a man, or that black people need to drink out of separate water fountains -- they never win. It may take weeks, months, or years, but they always lose in the end.

 

Just be patient, Wino. Your day will come-- I'd just about guarantee it. In the meantime, work on designating a figurehead for the movement, because trying to view Rosie O'Donnell on the same plain as Martin Luther King, or Sandra Day O'Connor is nauseating.

[Rex Kickass]

Its a baby step Wong. I'm not concerned with gay marriage right now. I'd just like not to see a permanent ban to the extension of rights that all people should have available to them in the constitution.

 

What's important to me right now? Making it illegal to fire someone for being gay. Just like its illegal to fire someone for being black or dyslexic or crippled.

[Texsox]

What's important to me right now? Making it illegal to fire someone for being gay. Just like its illegal to fire someone for being black or dyslexic or crippled.

I have a conflict of conviction with that one. While I agree that firing someone for being gay is wrong, I also believe we have made it too hard to hire and fire workers. Business owners shouldn't have to live in fear of letting someone go. It is also so damn hard to check any sort of references for the same reason.

 

So when a person is hired there is almost no info coming from their previous employers. You hire someone who isn't quite perfect for the job and decide to let them go. Then they charge it was because they are in a special class. That troubles me.

 

As one HR manager mentioned to me, firing a 30 year old white, hetrosexual male, is the easiest thing to do. Anything that sways from that, is problematic. So if it is harder to fire, who would you hire?

 

Some of these anti-firing laws may actually harm the very groups they are suppose to protect by cutting down their chances to get hired.

[southsider2k5]

The one big problem that I have with all of this is the whole judgement thing. We as Christians are not supposed to be passing judgement on anykind of sin. If you believe being gay, or acting gay, or gay marriage is a sin, it is not up to you to pass judgement. That judgement is to be passed by God. All we are to do is to love that man no matter what.

 

Heck look at the collection that Jesus himself had as apostles. He even had a murderer as one of his closest followers. All of Jesus's apostles were sinners. Remember bibilically no sin is worse than any other. God himself saids that anyone who has broken one rule of his, has broken them all. ALL SINS are equal under God. We are to mimic Jesus as an example of how to live our lives. So I can't see condemning any of this stuff. That isn't what we as Christians are supposed to do. We are supposed to love people no matter what. Judgement is up to God.

[Steff]

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/adhd.cfm#cause

Genetics.

Attention disorders often run in families, so there are likely to be genetic influences. Studies indicate that 25 percent of the close relatives in the families of ADHD children also have ADHD, whereas the rate is about 5 percent in the general population.6 Many studies of twins now show that a strong genetic influence exists in the disorder.7

 

Researchers continue to study the genetic contribution to ADHD and to identify the genes that cause a person to be susceptible to ADHD. Since its inception in 1999, the Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder Molecular Genetics Network has served as a way for researchers to share findings regarding possible genetic influences on ADHD.

 

 

http://www.autism-society.org/site/PageSer...me=autismcauses

What Causes Autism?

There is no known single cause for autism, but it is generally accepted that it is caused by abnormalities in brain structure or function. Brain scans show differences in the shape and structure of the brain in autistic versus non-autistic children. Researchers are investigating a number of theories, including the link between heredity, genetics and medical problems. In many families, there appears to be a pattern of autism or related disabilities, further supporting a genetic basis to the disorder. While no one gene has been identified as causing autism, researchers are searching for irregular segments of genetic code that autistic children may have inherited. It also appears that some children are born with a susceptibility to autism, but researchers have not yet identified a single "trigger" that causes autism to develop.

 

Other researchers are investigating the possibility that under certain conditions, a cluster of unstable genes may interfere with brain development resulting in autism. Still other researchers are investigating problems during pregnancy or delivery as well as environmental factors such as viral infections, metabolic imbalances, and exposure to environmental chemicals.

 

Autism tends to occur more frequently than expected among individuals who have certain medical conditions, including Fragile X syndrome, tuberous sclerosis, congenital rubella syndrome, and untreated phenylketonuria (PKU). Some harmful substances ingested during pregnancy also have been associated with an increased risk of autism. Early in 2002, The Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR) prepared a literature review of hazardous chemical exposures and autism and found no compelling evidence for an association; however, there was very limited research and more needs to be done.

 

The question of a relationship between vaccines and autism continues to be debated. In a 2001 investigation by the Institute of Medicine, a committee concluded that the "evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship.... between MMR vaccines and autistic spectrum disorders (ASD)." The committee acknowledged, however, that "they could not rule out" the possibility that the MMR vaccine could contribute to ASD in a small number of children. While other researchers agree the data does not support a link between the MMR and autism, more research is clearly needed.

 

Whatever the cause, it is clear that children with autism and PDD are born with the disorder or born with the potential to develop it. It is not caused by bad parenting. Autism is not a mental illness. Children with autism are not unruly kids who choose not to behave. Furthermore, no known psychological factors in the development of the child have been shown to cause autism.

 

 

But I suppose it's easier to blame the woman for not taking care of herself...

[sox4lifeinPA]

Thanks Stef, this is some of the stuff I was looking for.

[sox4lifeinPA]

The one big problem that I have with all of this is the whole judgement thing.  We as Christians are not supposed to be passing judgement on anykind of sin.  If you believe being gay, or acting gay, or gay marriage is a sin, it is not up to you to pass judgement.  That judgement is to be passed by God.  All we are to do is to love that man no matter what.

 

Heck look at the collection that Jesus himself had as apostles.  He even had a murderer as one of his closest followers.  All of Jesus's apostles were sinners.  Remember bibilically no sin is worse than any other.  God himself saids that anyone who has broken one rule of his, has broken them all.  ALL SINS are equal under God.  We are to mimic Jesus as an example of how to live our lives.  So I can't see condemning any of this stuff.  That isn't what we as Christians are supposed to do.  We are supposed to love people no matter what.  Judgement is up to God.

c'mon mike, you're better than that. I don't believe in a constitutional amendment against gay marriage but I 100% don't accept any arguement that a practicing homosexual could be in the clergy, leadership, etc.

 

1 John 4

1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[1] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

 

1 Corinthians 5

1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[1] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

6Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast--as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.

9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

[sox4lifeinPA]

I would argue that the Bible isn't so clear on it. What I've read has said that Paul may be referring to the sex slave trade and that the meaning of what he said isn't as clear as people might say

 

very interesting article on homosexuality and the bible

 

also know that the Bible is divine writing through the hands of humankind. Therefore, I am willing to accept that every word may not be true,For example, the notion of a trinity was not included in the Bible until the late Fifth Century.

 

first of all, if pure corruption can exist, then pure obediance and alignment with God can exist. I think doctrinally everything in the bible holds up. People interpret what they want to find in order to justify actions, i.e. annihilation of people, sexual relationships with men

 

But I'm not getting into a biblical argument. I'm not qualified.

 

but it doesn't mean we can't try!

 

I don't know what causes homosexuality. I just know that it exists. I know that my bisexuality was not something I chose. It's just something that is. As to what caused it is immaterial to me.

 

I think it's important to understand the genesis of all of our issues. I will admit to having issues with women of authority over me sometimes, because my mom was overbearing at times. A UCLA study found that 75% of effeminate males who played more with dolls than trucks, turned out to be homosexual. Did some chemical their moms intake affect their fetal development? Did their parents play a role in that?

 

I'm not a lesbian, I couldn't hope to answer that

 

my point once again is that shaping of sexual preference comes from environmental and social factors. Anorexia, depression, ADD, extroverted personalities, etc are both biological and sociological repercussions to stressors in their life.

 

I'm just asking serious questions about the origins of homosexuality and why it is deemed the only genetic, biological, or sociological abnormality that we don't try to fix as a society. I know I'll get all sorts of flack for it, but I'm trying to understand the arguement. I'm not trying to prove anything, but I'm asking for a clarification of how we get to 2004 and gay pride parades, gay marriages, and gay clergy. Some people will look at my beliefs as archaeic, not unlike the same way some people look at mennonites who don't use much of the technology readily available to them because they'd rather sweat it out and let hard work shape their characters versus our society's sloth and irresponsibility.

 

It's still my belief and there's a movement of people trying to hijack it, not out of biblical precedent but via cultural influence and an attack of words like "intolerance" and "ignorance". Yet, those very actions towards my beliefs are "intolerant and ignorant. I just ask for the same respect that you're trying to fight for. I'll admit I've used the words "f** and homo" but never at an individual. I shouldn't use those words at all, but how different are those words to the way many people use the word "Christian."

 

Somewhere along it Christianity is the only way of life that is ok to degrade and Christians are the only people it's ok to discriminate.

[Steff]

Thanks Stef, this is some of the stuff I was looking for.

Is that your round about apology for posting ignorance on the subject?

 

 

Because.. and no "personal offense".. but placing the blame for birth defects solely on the female is pretty ignorant.

[FlaSoxxJim]

It's not so much that your knuckles are dragging along the ground, PA, it's the openness with which you profess your homophobia that boggles the mind.

 

I don't believe in a constitutional amendment against gay marriage but I 100% don't accept any arguement that a practicing homosexual could be in the clergy, leadership, etc.

 

Then make sure to put the big "Hate and Fear Practiced Here" placcard up in front of your choice and everyone else can be forewarned and move on.

 

A UCLA study found that 75% of effeminate males who played more with dolls than trucks, turned out to be homosexual. Did some chemical their moms intake affect their fetal development? Did their parents play a role in that?

 

Or... There is a genetic basis to it that expresses itself early in life. Why would a young child born with gay tendencies not behave in such a manner? Why are you looking to exclusively blame the developmental environment (the mother must have taken chemicals into her body or the parents screwed the kid up in some way...)? You did not even make ann allowance for a genetic comnponent to homosexuality in your question phased as above.

 

There was a very good study published this year (I posted it here several months ago, and am too lazy to find it now), with very solid evidence for a physiological basis to homosexual leanings in men. Basically, gay men had certain involuntary reflexes (read: hardwired, NOT LEARNED) that paralelled those of straight women but NOT straight men.

 

The search for evidence of a genetic basis for homosexually continues. If it is found and if it then continues to be substantiated over time, will you still treat it like it is either just a simple individual choice or a terrible childhood nurturing gone horribly wrong?

 

I'm not trying to prove anything, but I'm asking for a clarification of how we get to 2004 and gay pride parades, gay marriages, and gay clergy.

 

That is what you call social progress. Not as sweeping or as universal as would be hoped, but progress nonetheless.

 

I'm just asking serious questions about the origins of homosexuality and why it is deemed the only genetic, biological, or sociological abnormality that we don't try to fix as a society.

 

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. A far more loving and tolerant Christian than yourself once noted that something may be normal even if it is not normative.

[Heads22]

On the other thing, Tex - I don't subscribe to any particular Christian religion anymore. I'm just looking for the place that feels right. Any church I attend HAS to be open and affirming. I don't want a church to condone my actions, but instead to accept who I am as valid. Something that not enough churches do.

Something not enough people do. And I'm just not talking about gays or whatever, I'm talking about all groups of people....

[sox4lifeinPA]

Is that your round about apology for posting ignorance on the subject?

 

 

Because.. and no "personal offense".. but placing the blame for birth defects solely on the female is pretty ignorant.

If anyone wonders why this individual is seen as elitist, snobby, and condescending...

 

here's the evidence.

 

 

Stef, I never once claimed my knowledge on this subject was sealed and completed. Throughout my posts I said I was trying to understand the origins of all of these things, and one of those was things mother's intake...could it be that might actually be something she does unintentionally and unbeknownst to her and her baby???????????????????????????????????????????????

 

get off it. Don't you think looking down on everyone and mocking them for trying to broaden their scope of understanding the world is ignorant?

 

yeah, thought so....bugger off and don't join this conversation if you can't add anything positive.

[sox4lifeinPA]

It's not so much that your knuckles are dragging along the ground, PA, it's the openness with which you profess your homophobia that boggles the mind.

 

 

 

Then make sure to put the big "Hate and Fear Practiced Here" placcard up in front of your choice and everyone else can be forewarned and move on.

 

 

 

Or... There is a genetic basis to it that expresses itself early in life.  Why would a young child born with gay tendencies not behave in such a manner?  Why are you looking to exclusively blame the developmental environment (the mother must have taken chemicals into her body or the parents screwed the kid up in some way...)?  You did not even make ann allowance for a genetic comnponent to homosexuality in your question phased as above.

 

There was a very good study published this year (I posted it here several months ago, and am too lazy to find it now), with very solid evidence for a physiological basis to homosexual leanings in men.  Basically, gay men had certain involuntary reflexes (read: hardwired, NOT LEARNED) that paralelled those of straight women but NOT straight men.

 

The search for evidence of a genetic basis for homosexually continues.  If it is found and if it then continues to be substantiated over time, will you still treat it like it is either just a simple individual choice or a terrible childhood nurturing gone horribly wrong?

 

 

 

That is what you call social progress.  Not as sweeping or as universal as would be hoped, but progress nonetheless.

 

 

 

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.  A far more loving and tolerant Christian than yourself once noted that something may be normal even if it is not normative.

"why it is deemed the only genetic, biological, or sociological abnormality that we don't try to fix as a society."

 

I said that... and Jim and Stef both jumped to the conclusion that I'm only talking about fetal development and nuturing after birth.

 

I asked people nicely not to jump on my back, but of course, the hate is out there. Why can't questions be asked without people getting down on those asking questions?

 

that's pretty sad.

[Steff]

Your quote:

 

"1) the development of a fetus is extremely effected by what a woman does to her body. With the lack of personal responsibility so rampant in our culture, its no wonder children are born with more and more abnormalities, such as ADD, Atism, and (dare I say it) homosexuality."

 

 

 

And I never once said your knowledge was sealed and complete.. I think that's pretty obvious. I asked you a specific question about a specific comment. Can't just answer the question.. instead you choose to attack and call me names. Typical.

 

Whatever floats your boat.

 

 

Kepp up with the new you.. you've given many a clear picture as to what you really are.

 

Have a wonderful day..

[sox4lifeinPA]

Your quote:

 

"1) the development of a fetus is extremely effected by what a woman does to her body. With the lack of personal responsibility so rampant in our culture, its no wonder children are born with more and more abnormalities, such as ADD, Atism, and (dare I say it) homosexuality."

 

 

 

And I never once said your knowledge was sealed and complete.. I think that's pretty obvious. I asked you a specific question about a specific comment. Can't just answer the question.. instead you choose to attack and call me names. Typical.

 

Whatever floats your boat.

 

 

Kepp up with the new you.. you've given many a clear picture as to what you really are.

 

Have a wonderful day..

How the hell do you put that back on me?

 

 

You unbelievable.....................................

 

Mike, Jason, and other mods, this f***ing bulls*** has got to end. This place is going down hill fast.

[Steff]

Mike, Jason, and other mods, this f***ing bulls*** has got to end. This place is going down hill fast.

You've got that right...

 

It's nice and peaceful around here during the week.

[Spiff]

How the hell do you put that back on me?

 

 

You unbelievable.....................................

 

Mike, Jason, and other mods, this f***ing bulls*** has got to end. This place is going down hill fast.

How about you two learn to be civil adults first, and then we won't have to do anything about it.

[FlaSoxxJim]

"why it is deemed the only genetic, biological, or sociological abnormality that we don't try to fix as a society."

 

I said that... and Jim and Stef both jumped to the conclusion that I'm only talking about fetal development and nuturing after birth.

Throwing in that line (as a way to restate and reenforce your contention that homosexuality is an "abnormality") doesn't change your thesis assertion that you figure it either has to be the mother f***ing up and taking some gay-making drug into her body, or it is the parents f***ing it up somewhhere by creating a gay-making environment and subjecting thier child to it.

[Wong & Owens]

or it is the parents f***ing it up somewhhere by creating a gay-making environment and subjecting thier child to it.

"Billy, come downstairs, it's 4:00 -- time for your Streisand Appreciation Class"

[FlaSoxxJim]

"Billy, come downstairs, it's 4:00 -- time for your Streisand Appreciation Class"

[Steff]

How about you two learn to be civil adults first, and then we won't have to do anything about it.

I've got no problem with this spiff. Although I do have a problem with being attacked for asking a question. Aparently I misunderstood his comment.. and that's all he needed to say.

[greasywheels121]

Mike, Jason, and other mods, this f***ing bulls*** has got to end. This place is going down hill fast.

I agree with that much. However, I don't agree with what either of you are saying. Yeah, you can tell me to "stay out of your business" and "don't read it, if I don't like it"; however, I try to take a look everything on the board. I just don't understand why stuff like this just can't stay between the two people INSIDE PMs, on AIM. I'm just getting kind of tired of seeing everyone air their dirty laundry for everyone to see.

 

Yeah, I know someone's going to comeback with something very intelligent :rolly to say everything that I just said is wrong...but yeah, whatever.

[Steff]

I agree with that much.  However, I don't agree with what either of you are saying.  Yeah, you can tell me to "stay out of your business" and "don't read it, if I don't like it"; however, I try to take a look everything on the board.  I just don't understand why stuff like this just can't stay between the two people INSIDE PMs, on AIM.  I'm just getting kind of tired of seeing everyone air their dirty laundry for everyone to see.

 

Yeah, I know someone's going to comeback with something very intelligent  :rolly to say everything that I just said is wrong...but yeah, whatever.

That would have made an awesome PM..

[southsider2k5]

c'mon mike, you're better than that. I don't believe in a constitutional amendment against gay marriage but I 100% don't accept any arguement that a practicing homosexual could be in the clergy, leadership, etc.

Sexually immoral is a broad statement. To me that would apply to premarital sex, extra-marital affairs, lust etc. I still won't accept that being gay would be anymore of a sin, than any of the other sexual sins. I really don't see that being specified there.

[sox4lifeinPA]

Throwing in that line (as a way to restate and reenforce your contention that homosexuality is an "abnormality") doesn't change your thesis assertion that you figure it either has to be the mother f***ing up and taking some gay-making drug into her body, or it is the parents f***ing it up somewhhere by creating a gay-making environment and subjecting thier child to it.

like I said, I wasn't trying to prove any assertions, therefore I need no thesis. I'm just trying to sort this all out in my head. I thanked Stef for her post on autism and ADD, and of course it got ugly. My question is why it's assumed that homosexuality is a natural occurance. A culture that considers so many genetic inheiratences (spell check please) as negatives, such as obesity, high cholesterol, ADD, why isn't homosexuality in that mix? we try to treat all of those things with medications, yet we chose to accept homosexuality as normative.

 

Once again, i'm asking not for hateful remarks and condescention, but for scientific explanations to why we accept this as ok. I'm not asking for suggestions that society evolves, because gay relationships have been accepted long before the advent of voting and democracy, so why do women have the right to vote and only now people are trying to get the gay marriages legalized? my point being that there seems to be a deeper seated reason that societal evolution has given homosexuality the screw, however, I don't know if anyone outside true christianity could understand with faith.

 

please, let's continue to talk about this in a civilized manner. thanks, PA