witesoxfan Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 As almost everyone knows by now, there are rumors of a potential Konerko for Hudson trade(we only have like a 180 post thread about it...if you missed it, WAKE THE f*** UP). I brought up an idea to bring Byrnes to the Sox, and how it would help us a ton. This does bring up a point though...why would Beane trade Byrnes? He's cheap, young, and is good...he doesn't need to get rid of him for a couple years. So, I got to thinking about something that could work, but it gets pretty complicated...so complicated in fact that it involves 4 teams. To start the deal, the White Sox send Carlos Lee, Paul Konerko, and a large package of prospects(3 or so...2 pitchers, 1 OF...these players are a little closer to the big league but are not big time impact players, or in all likelyhood will not be) to Oakland for Hudson and Byrnes. In addition with the package of Konerko, Lee, and prospects, the White Sox send $6 mill...I'll get to that very shortly. After that is done, the A's then send Konerko and one of the prospects they received from us to Pittsburgh for Jason Kendall and $12 mill(I seem to remember reading that Pittsburgh will take on around 35% of Kendall's remaining $34 mill, but not much more then that...that means in the $11-12 mill neighborhood). That's where the $6 mill the Sox sent along with Konerko, Lee, and the prospects comes into play. The Pirates pick up $8 mill of Kendall's $10 mill for 05, and $2 more the following years. The Sox pick up $2 mill of Kendall's contract for 05 and $4 mill for 06. But from that math, Oakland's still paying Kendall $7 mill in 06 and 07...too much by a couple mill. That's where the 4th team comes in, and this is probably the most objectionable part of the whole trade, and this is where it very well could break down. The Athletics then send Arthur Rhodes to St. Louis for a prospect and $4 mill...the prospect would be decent, but does not have to be anything spectacular...the key to that is the $4 mill St. Louis sends Oakland. To put it in a simplified sort of fashion, here's how it breaks down Sox give: Konerko, Lee, 3 prospects, and $6 mill A's give: Hudson, Byrnes, and Rhodes Pirates give: Kendall and $12 mill Cards give: prospect and $4 mill Sox receive: Hudson and Byrnes A's receive: Lee, Kendall, and a combined total of $22 mill Pirates receive: Konerko and a prospect Cards receive: Rhodes The reason the Sox make it is obvious...they improve a ton. The reason Oakland makes the move is because they get essentially the same production out of Lee and Kendall as they do with Posada and Byrnes(this assuming that New York would send Posada out west along with taking on a considerable chunk of his salary for Hudson), their payroll stays the same, and Beane no longer has to worry about paying a middle reliever/set up guy $3-4 mill. Pittsburgh makes the trade because they get rid of Kendall's albatross of a contract and get a little something-something in return in the prospect they receive(along with the prospects they'd probably get for trading Konerko at the deadline). And St. Louis makes the trade because they get a replacement for Steve Kline while giving up a prospect and $4 mill total in 06 and 07. Another reason I think Oakland and Beane maybe want to work with KW is that he realizes the Sox are not nearly as close to winning it all as the Yankees are, and by trading Hudson to New York, he improves the Yankees rotation a ton to the point where they are a World Series favorite again. That's probably wishful thinking however. Anyways...comments on the craziness of this trade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagar69 Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 no way A's would do this. beane is too smart for stupid s*** like this. (see koch, billy for Foulke, Keith). he will find a C waaaay cheaper that will be comprable to kendall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 no way A's would do this. beane is too smart for stupid s*** like this. (see koch, billy for Foulke, Keith). he will find a C waaaay cheaper that will be comprable to kendall. Because Beane = God, right? Beane can do no wrong, right? Correct? :rolly Ugh, the FOBB have made their way to Soxtalk. I hope it's not contagious... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 You an A's fan or something wite? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 Konerko, Lee, 3 prospect AND $6 million is a LOT to trade even if its for Hudson and Byrnes. I'm assuming Damian Miller is a free agent as well, but they may want to bring him back as a cheaper option than to take on Kendall's contract, even if the Pirates pay a portion of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 no way A's would do this. beane is too smart for stupid s*** like this. (see koch, billy for Foulke, Keith). he will find a C waaaay cheaper that will be comprable to kendall. I agree that they will find a catcher, but there are only 3 or 4 catchers comparable to kendall. Right now, i would go as far as saying he is the best hitting catcher in baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 I agree that they will find a catcher, but there are only 3 or 4 catchers comparable to kendall. Right now, i would go as far as saying he is the best hitting catcher in baseball. He's the best top of the order hitting cathcer in the Major Leagues, but guys like I-Rod would have better all - round production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted November 5, 2004 Author Share Posted November 5, 2004 no way A's would do this. beane is too smart for stupid s*** like this. (see koch, billy for Foulke, Keith). he will find a C waaaay cheaper that will be comprable to kendall. How much would it improve their team though? Kendall's career OBP is .387, and the lowest his OBP has been the past 3 years is .350 in 2002. Beane gets Kendall for $5 mill a year, and Kendall will almost undoubtedly put up atleast a .380 OBP. He also gets a run producer and a good RH bat in Lee for LF He'd rather get something for Hudson then nothing, and he's definately getting a big something for him if he were to make this move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted November 5, 2004 Author Share Posted November 5, 2004 You an A's fan or something wite? No, just giving Beane a lot of credit. Probably too much actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 He's the best top of the order hitting cathcer in the Major Leagues, but guys like I-Rod would have better all - round production. I-rod is the only other catcher i would take over him, piazza would be third on my list. Since piazza will be moving back to catcher full time next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 Konerko, Lee, 3 prospect AND $6 million is a LOT to trade even if its for Hudson and Byrnes. I'm assuming Damian Miller is a free agent as well, but they may want to bring him back as a cheaper option than to take on Kendall's contract, even if the Pirates pay a portion of it. Chances are slim he will be returning next year. Free-agent catcher Damian Miller, who made $3 million last season, is seeking a three-year deal. Good luck with that, Damian. The A's would like to bring the 35-year-old back on a one-year contract, but with the lack of catching out there, Miller may get $5 million over two years from another team. We wouldn't be surprised to see the A's try to lure Doug Mirabelli to Oakland with the promise of regular playing time. They're also one of the teams that should be interested in Ramon Castro. From rotoworld. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 Way too much money gets thrown around. For example if anyone would simply take on all of Arthur Rhodes contract this upcoming year I'd think they could have him. Yet you have the Cards acquiring that albatross of a contract and giving up 4 mill in cash plus a prospect. THe Sox are giving up two contracts and 6 mill is do-able, imo. However the Sox offense is in trouble now. However you know me, I like the idea of getting Byrnes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch and Judy Garland Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 Given the Cards free agents and flirtation with the RJ's and Pavano's it would be false to assume that they want to take on Arhtur RHodes $3 million plus $4. This would be a gross interpretation of their finacial status. They still have to plug holes at SS, 2B, SU, SP, SP. Even if you ssume they use Ankiel or Haren, they will e spending money elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 i dont think giving up both carlos lee and konerko a couple of prospects and 6 million is a good idea unless we got a lot more in return Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AddisonStSox Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 Expect the Sox to make little to no splash in free agency and hope for a trade involving some solid pitching. I think that trade is even too complicated for Kenny. I'm not much of a video game guy...but I think that is where you want to be. You can trade whoever you want...wherever you want! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted November 5, 2004 Author Share Posted November 5, 2004 i dont think giving up both carlos lee and konerko a couple of prospects and 6 million is a good idea unless we got a lot more in return I look at it this way We already have Everett and Gload who are basically bench players for us now(actually, Everett will be the starting DH going into next year until Frank is healthy and then will move to RF with Lee on the team...I do not like the thought of Everett in RF, and I don't think a lot of other people do either). Konerko and Lee are, combined, about .280 70 200 .900-ish with a combined total of $16.5 mill between the two of them. Those are solid numbers, to say the least. However, in trading them both for Hudson and Byrnes, we are getting perhaps .280 25 80 25 .800 production in return in Byrnes in CF, we get whatever ARow does for us in RF, and we have Everett in LF, where I am much more comfortable with him(and I'm sure many others are too). You then put Gload at 1B. While that does not improve the offense, it does improve the starting rotation a ton...you go from having Buehrle-Garcia-Contreras-Garland-some s***ty pitcher to having Hudson-Buehrle-Garcia-Contreras-Garland...the strength of the rotation is probably not matched by a lot of teams, and I'd take that rotation up against any in the majors. I do not feel that we are Hudson and Byrnes away from winning the division and winning it all...but I do feel that this deal does puts us very close, honest to god. One thing I just thought about...the St. Louis part could be thrown completely out. when I was thinking about this before, I for some reason completely skipped over the fact that the Sox would be saving about $9 mill in making this trade, which is where picking up some money comes in handy. The 4 mill that St. Louis picked up before is instead picked up by the Sox, and is picked up in 2005, not over 06 and 07. I say this because Lee and Konerko's salaries combined are costing the Sox a total of $16.5 mill(as I mentioned above), while Hudson and Byrnes combined cost a total of around $7.5-8 mill. The Sox can pick up $4 mill of this and still have enough money to go after a solid reliever and to sign Vizquel to the 2 year, $8 mill deal. It may seem like a ton to give up...and it really is...but it could reap rewards. Hudson is a stud and would likely be here for quite a while(or that's what I hope anyways). That being said, here's how I now view it... Sox give: Lee, Konerko, prospects, and $10 mill total($4 mill in 05, $2 in 06, $4 in 07) A's give: Hudson and Byrnes Pirates give: Kendall and $12 mill Sox get: Huddy and Byrnes A's get: Lee, Kendall, 2 of the 3 prospects, and the same $22 mill combined Pirates get: Konerko and a prospect It is still a lot of money switching hands...and it's a ton by the White Sox...but I think that if it gets the Sox Hudson and Byrnes, then I'm for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 From a Sox perspective, we are giving up WAY too much for WAY too little. I lost interest in the rest of the deal when I saw that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted November 5, 2004 Author Share Posted November 5, 2004 I do understand that we are giving up a ton. But, using completely hypothetical numbers, here are two scenarios I came up with... This is the offense and rotation without the deal. Vizquel - .280 5 50 .725 .350 OBP 20 SBs Rowand - .300 25 75 .850 .375 OBP 25 SBs Thomas - .270 35 110 .950 .425 OBP ---(his SBs mean nothing) Lee - .310 35 110 .900 .370 20 SBs Konerko - .275 35 110 .900 .370 --- Everett - .280 25 80 .800 .350 --- Uribe - .280 25 70 .800 .350 15 SBs Crede - .260 25 65 .750 .310 OBP --- Davis - .250 10 50 .700 .300 OBP --- Buehrle - 16-10 4.00 Garcia - 16-10 4.00 Contreras - 15-12 4.50 Garland - 15-12 4.50 s***ty #5 starter - 8-12 5.50 This is the potential offense and rotation after making the deal Byrnes - .280 25 70 .800 .350 25 Vizquel - ditto Thomas - ditto Everett - ditto Rowand - ditto Gload - he could be anywhere from .270 15 60 to .300 25 90...I picked middle ground and said .285 20 75 .800 Uribe - ditto Crede - ditto Davis - ditto Basically...what this trade does to the offense is takes out a little power...as you can tell, for the large part, the offense remains the same. Guys move up and down and that is probably the main thing that affects the offense...in getting rid of Lee, you have no true cleanup guy, so Everett has to come in and do that job for you. It's messy, but it gets the job done. The rotation is that part I liked the most Hudson - 18-8 3.50 Buehrle - 16-10 4.00 Garcia - 16-10 4.00 Contreras - 13-13 4.75 Garland - 13-13 4.75 Notice that both Garland and Contreras numbers are not the same as above...and the rotation is still better. That's why trading that much for Hudson means so much...we go from having a solid, yet still not great rotation to having a great, top 3 in the majors rotation, and a 1-2-3 that can handle anyone's. In trading Konerko, Lee, 3 prospects(probably would be Munoz, Diaz, and a guy like Spidale at the very most) and $10 mill to Oakland, the Sox almost put themselves over the top, because they do still have $5 mill or so to spend elsewhere(like on Percival or Urbina), or they could go out and trade for Guillen and have Everett come off the bench as a very good 1B/OF type guy...or they could do both I suppose. That is why I make this trade...I do feel it almost puts us over the top. Losing Konerko and Lee hurts the Sox offense a little bit, but what they get in return is worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 let me leave it at this that deal isnt going to happen so no point in trying to make your case for it to happen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 I like the Daily Southtown scenario much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 I think this is finally the year kendall gets traded. Talks with the dodgers have been heating up once again, along with the padres showing alot of interest once more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 Sox give: Lee, Konerko, prospects, and $10 mill total($4 mill in 05, $2 in 06, $4 in 07) A's give: Hudson and Byrnes Pirates give: Kendall and $12 mill Sox get: Huddy and Byrnes A's get: Lee, Kendall, 2 of the 3 prospects, and the same $22 mill combined Pirates get: Konerko and a prospect It is still a lot of money switching hands...and it's a ton by the White Sox...but I think that if it gets the Sox Hudson and Byrnes, then I'm for it. I don't want to start a fight, but this is one of the worst trade ideas I have ever seen, and that includes the whitesox.com message boards. Suppose the rumors are true about moving Konerko for Hudson. For your deal, we would essentially be giving up Carlos Lee, 3 prospects, and 10 million dollars, for Eric f***ing Byrnes?!?!?! I'm pretty sure that if either Paulie or Carlos Lee are traded this offseason, we won't be paying for much of their contracts, let alone $5 million. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 PK and hudson each will be FA's after 2005. Lee would still be locked up for a few years to whatever team he'd be traded to. Lee in this scenario would be a throw in. I think many of us underestimate Lee's and Pk's value. It's hard to find a big bat who can field decently for under $9 mill like these guys. Teams looking for a big bat could be stuck signing a FA to an expensive long term deal and get burned. think how few teams would be willing to trade for Posada [isn't he owed like $15 mill a yr for a few yrs?] or for Kendall's huge contract the past few yrs. A PK and Hudson deal makes sense for both teams [as each plan on fighting for the playoffs---few non-contending teams would want either players, no matter how good, for only 1 yr] so that they can fill holes for 2005. A Lee deal could help the sox improve in many areas; the sheer amount of trading partners looking for a Carlos lee on their team increases. The Sox could deal with Both playoff bound [who need additional offensvie help] and non-contending Teams, [who want a #3 hitter to build around]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 I also think many underestimate Konerko and Lee's trade value. I just wanted to back you up on that, Beck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butter Parque Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 I like it in a way, but think we're giving up too much for Hudson and byrnes with the 3 prospects. Maybe someone should give us a prospect or 2 back and then i would do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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