Very crazy trade idea

[chisox05]

good point on jose guillen witesoxfan.

 

I am pretty sure he will not be on the angels come next season, and since hes latin, and we have a whole in the outfield, he might be added. I like guillen, he has improved tremendously over the past couple of seasons and has turned himself into a solid contact hitter with nice power and a great arm in the outfield.

[witesoxfan]

I should add one *minor* thing...

 

Tim Hudson HAS to, no ifs, ands, or buts about it, absolutely, positively, 100% HAS to sign an extension with the White Sox. If he doesn't, this deal is a no go.

 

I'm not going to give up Lee and Konerko for 1 year of Hudson and a few years of Byrnes...I will give up Lee and Konerko for multiple years of Hudson(read: we have him until 2007 or 08 atleast) and Byrnes

[Guest hawaiisoxfn]

If we were to trade konerko and lee....

 

Our lineup would definetely not be "the worst in baseball" in fact, if we get a shortstop at 4-6 million and an outfielder at 1-3 million we would have a top 15 at least offesnive team while acquiring 2 arms-probably hudson or big unit and someone else giving us.

 

1.Randy Johnson/Tim Hudson

2.Mark Buehrle

3.Other pitcher we get this offseason-odalis perez???

4.Freddy Garcia

5.Jose Contreras(if he cant get it after 4 starts and mccarthy continues to progress, i wouldnt be surprised if he would be up here)

 

 

So, I would not want to lose both of these guys, but pending what we get in return, we would be improved.

Top 15? We probably wouldnt and top 15 is still way down from where we are now. If we come back next year with Frank, PK and Lee all healthy in the middle of the order, and Rowand and Uribe starting things up, the only lineups I can think of that would be better would be those of the Cardinals, Red Sox and Yankees. If we sign Odalis Perez, wed have one of the best rotations as well. Thats all we need to do.

[Guest hawaiisoxfn]

Koskie cleaning up? Thats a scary thought. That lineup would be a major downgrade from what we have now. And our rotation is only improved by one pitcher, which could be done by signing Odalis Perez and not hurting our offense at all. As for Guillen, forget about it. He is a headcase and I dont want him here.

[YASNY]

witesoxfan, there is only one thing wrong with your proposed trade ........ Everything!

 

Ok, I'm kidding, but ....

 

1. Even though, in your opinion, it improves the Sox, it is a bad trade for one very simple reason. You are giving up way too much in value for what you are receiving in return. I mean PK & CL for Hudson and Byrnes is not an unreasonable trade based only on player values. I know it's not realistic because of the $ situation, but strictly on a 2 for 2 basis, it's relatively fair.

 

2. Adding 3 prospects and $$$$$$$$$ to a deal like that and KW would be strung up from the CF scoreboard by the media and Sox fans, to say nothing of what JR would do to him.

 

3. Even though the Sox are wanting to get away from the power hitter type, they are not wanting to go back to the '06 Hitless Wonders or the '59 Go Go Sox .... even though both teams did make the Series. I just can't KW moving both PK and CL during this offseason. One or the other, yes. In fact, I believe it will happen.

 

You usually have pretty good ideas, and you even back this one up very well. But, just looking at the trade, they could get a lot more for PK, CL, 3 Prospects and $10M than just Hudson and Byrnes.

[witesoxfan]

witesoxfan, there is only one thing wrong with your proposed trade ........ Everything! 

 

Ok, I'm kidding, but ....

 

1.  Even though, in your opinion, it improves the Sox, it is a bad trade for one very simple reason.  You are giving up way too much in value for what you are receiving in return. I mean PK & CL for Hudson and Byrnes is not an unreasonable trade based only on player values.  I know it's not realistic because of the $ situation, but strictly on a 2 for 2 basis, it's relatively fair.

 

2.  Adding 3 prospects and $$$$$$$$$ to a deal like that and KW would be strung up from the CF scoreboard by the media and Sox fans, to say nothing of what JR would do to him. 

 

3.  Even though the Sox are wanting to get away from the power hitter type, they are not wanting to go back to the '06 Hitless Wonders or the '59 Go Go Sox .... even though both teams did make the Series.  I just can't KW moving both PK and CL during this offseason.  One or the other, yes.  In fact, I believe it will happen.

 

You usually have pretty good ideas, and you even back this one up very well.  But, just looking at the trade, they could get a lot more for PK, CL, 3 Prospects and $10M than just Hudson and Byrnes.

There is a reason I proposed this...and it was to see how good/bad it really was. I've done exactly that, and I do think I have figured out that we are giving up too much.

 

The 3 prospects is probably too much...probably could knock that down to 1 prospect in all likelyhood, or perhaps even no prospects.

 

The main reason I will take on $4 mil of Kendall's contract in this situation is due to the fact that we still come out on top money wise. If we trade PK and Caballo essentially straight up for Hudson and Byrnes(which is basically what the trade is from our standpoint), we come out $9 mill richer. When you include Kendall into the mix, with Pittsburgh taking on $12 mill, Oakland has to take on about $6 mill this year, which is, quite frankly, too much for them to take on. We take on $4 of that $6 mill for this year, and Kendall is down to $2 mill for them, making him much, much more attractive to Beane and company(one of the best catchers in the league for $2 mill? Not sure how he would be able to refuse). He then makes $5 mill the next two years in Oakland, so Oakland is paying him $12 mill over 3 years...that's next to nothing.

 

I honestly do feel that this move would push us very close to over the top. I look at Byrnes, and realize that he would be a pretty good leadoff hitter for us, and he could provide 25-30 homers too. I then look at Tim Hudson, who is one of the best pitchers in the league, and would make our rotation a top 3 rotation in the majors(there would not be many teams who would have a better 1-2-3 then Hudson, Buehrle, Garcia, and Contreras is a pretty damn good #4 too, with Garland being a very solid #5), and realize that all we really have to do is worry about finding 1 more bat, and a good reliever, and we have a pretty good shot at making some noise. Also, as I mentioned before...offense is a lot easier to upgrade at the trading deadline then pitching is, and it costs much less. There's always a possibility that a guy like Shea Hillenbrand or even Edgardo Alfonso becomes available and will come relatively cheaply, and would provide a good bat in the lower part of the order.

 

 

 

So maybe not Lee, Kong, 3 prospects, and $10 mill..maybe just Lee, Kong, and $10 mill for Hudson and Byrnes. However, if Oakland says you have to give a prospect or two to get the deal done, I would do it in a heartbeat.

[The_Godfather]

Complete offseason plan...I'll try.

 

From what I can tell about players who I see being on the roster as of right now or are in the crosshairs for being on the team, we are at roughly $67 mill as of about right now(I have Garcia, Buehrle, Contreras, and Garland down for a combined $22 mill, Shingo, Marte, Politte, Cotts, and Adkins down for a combined total of $7 mill, Davis and Burke down for a total of $3 mill, Gload, Thomas, and Konerko down for a total of $18 mill, Uribe, Harris, and Crede down for $2 mill, Lee, Rowand, Everett, Escobar(who I think will be on the roster next year), and Perez down for $15.5(the .5 being Escobar)...add that up and you get about $67.5 mill.

 

As for my moves...I sign Omar Vizquel to a 2-year $8 mill deal with a $5 mill option for the 3rd year or a $.5 mill buyout.  Payroll = $70.5 mill.

 

Then I make this trade I have proposed(and while it may be overpaying, to play along, I'll keep the same proposal...not saying it couldn't be changed at a later date or that we couldn't get more for them...that's just my max offer for Hudson and Byrnes...if they want anymore then that, they can shove it). 

 

After that move is made, I figure our payroll is around $65.5, so we have around $6-10 mill more to fool around with.  I'll then sign Percival to a 2-year, $10 mill deal($4 mill in 05, $5 mill in 06, plus a $7 mill option for 07 or a $1 mill buyout).  The payroll is now $69.5 mill, and I figure I have between $2-6 mill left. 

 

I then either

 

a - trade Crede as part of a package for either a reliever or a decent prospect and then sign Koskie to a 2-year, $12 mill deal($5 in 05, $6 in 06, $8 opt or $1 mill buyout).  We then sign a guy like Greg Colbrunn or Dave Hansen who can play a little 1B too, because with Everett starting, our backup 1Bman is in the everyday lineup, and we really can't have that. 

 

I could also see a guy like Ryan Hankins being called up in this instance, and having him play a little C and 1B for us too, with Burke doing the same.

 

OR

 

b - trade for Jose Guillen(maybe a Spidale or Munoz type for him), and he becomes my RFer, and I can now choose who between Byrnes and Rowand who plays LF and who plays CF.  I'll put the stronger throwing Rowand in CF, though Byrnes could easily play their too...that's all a matter of choice. 

 

 

I'm sure there's a creative way I could do both, but I'll spare the trouble. 

 

Those are in the order I'd do them too.  Choice A weakens the Twins, strengthens the Sox, and makes the Sox lineup more dangerous from 1-9.  Choice B is basically a backup plan...if Koskie reinks with Minny or if he goes elsewhere and gets a longterm deal, we need to do something to create more depth to the offense, because while the lineup I proposed above is good enough, there is no one on the bench who really could come in and do any damage whatsoever(unless Escobar captures lightning in a bottle). 

 

And, while this last part won't happen because KW and the Sox

 

Those are all the moves I make.  My roster is then, for the most part, set.

 

Rotation of...

Hudson

Buehrle

Garcia

Contreras

Garland

 

Shingo, Marte, Percival, Politte, Cotts, Adkins, and a 12th pitcher out of the pen(whoever wins it in ST...just basically a mopup guy)

 

Byrnes - CF

Vizquel - SS

Thomas - DH

Koskie - 3B

Rowand - RF

Everett - LF

Uribe - 2B

Gload - 1B

Davis - C

 

That's plan A...notice that we have a guy that will could put up a .280 20 75 .800 season in the #8 slot...I love the strength from 1-9 this lineup provides.

 

Byrnes - LF

Vizquel - SS

Thomas - DH

Guillen - RF

Rowand - CF

Gload - 1B

Uribe - 2B

Crede - 3B

Davis - C

 

with Everett coming off the bench and playing 1B and all 3 OF spots for about 80-90 games.  Everett has to be able to play 1B for this lineup to work out.  If not, you can just simply dump his ass elsewhere.

 

 

Bench is then

 

Burke - C/1B/3B/OF

Harris - 2B/LF/CF

Colbrunn/Hankins/Hansen/someone - 1B(and maybe C and OF too)

Escobar - OF

 

That's plan A again...if we go by plan B, there is no need for the 1B and maybe C and OF type on the team, because we already have that player in Everett, and he can play all 3 OF positions too.

 

As far as I can tell, the payroll for this team would be in the neighborhood of around $73-75 mill total(Plan A is roughly $75 mill while Plan B is $73...when you add up just the salaries of the players, you get $71 and $69 respectfully, but I forgot to add the $4 mill that is given to Oakland in the major trade...dumb me  ). 

 

Not sure how many games this team would win...but I figure either would fair pretty well.  Plan B is a lot riskier then Plan A is, simply due to the fact that you are having a lot of guys on the team who you are depending on to get it done but they have not gotten it done in their careers up to this point.  Plan B also has a lot more potential to become the more dangerous offense, due to the depth it provides if Crede were to bust out and have a good year and Ben Davis was finally able to put together a real good year and hit in the .260-.270 range with 10-15 homers and a .750 OPS, along with having Everett on the bench.  Plan A I prefer because it is more assured of being a good up and down the lineup, but it does not provide much depth at all, and the bench is fairly weak(though that is something easily fixed at the trade deadline or via the waiver wire...there are guys like that all the time). 

 

The real clincher is the pitching staff.  With just 2 signings, I feel that the pitching staff goes from being very mediocre to being very good.  The bullpen would still have the potential to be a little suspect at times, but it would be much better then Koch, Shingo, Marte, Politte, Adkins, Cotts, and Jackson that we went into last year with.  And I figure Cotts and Adkins have to improve just due to the experience they picked up last year.  They might not be great pitchers, but I think they'll do well in the roles they have, and that's all that really matters.

 

Anyways, I'd say that pretty much sums it up.  That's what I'd try to do at the very least...not sure how possible it is, but that'd be what I'd attempt to do.

That Plan of yours is dumb let me explain why ok.

 

A. Why trade both Lee and PK prospects & 6 million for Hudson and Byrnes Makes no sense

 

Here is how I would do our offseason. Being realistic with our money.

 

1. My ideal trade would be this Pk and "A" prospect to the D-Backs for Randy Johnson. Pk is making 8.75 million, Randy is making 16 million with 6 million defferred so payroll hit for this year is 10 million or 1.25 million more then what were paying PK. Payroll = 63.5 million ( maybe less if the D-Back throw in some cash )

 

2. Sign Omar I agree with you here 2 years 8 million no options though unless it is a sticking point for Omars agent. Payroll = 67.5 million

 

3. Sign Einar Diaz as our catcher he should be around 1-2 million per year play good D and has a solid arm behind the plate plus he can hit. Very solid player payroll = high side 69.5 million

 

4.Option A. Sign Troy Percival who would cost us about 4-5 millon per which is decent solves our closer needs and also gives us a deadly righty/lefty combo with Marte/Shingo as setup men payroll= 74.5 million

 

Option B Rod Beck Is he old yes can he still pitch YES would he be cheap YES. 1 mil - 2 million which I think is real high for him payroll is now at 71.5 million

 

Lineup

1. Omar SS

2. Rowand CF

3. Thomas DH

4. Everett RF

5. Lee LF

6. Uribe 2B

7. Gload 1B

8. Crede 3B

9. Diaz C

 

Bench

Harris

Perez

Davis

Burke

 

Rotation

1. Randy

2. Freddy

3. Mark

4. Conteras

5. Garland

 

Bullpen

Marte LH setupman

Shingo/Beck RH setupman

Percival Closer

 

MRP

Politte

Adkins

Cotts

Diaz

 

That is a team that can compete for the divison and play well in the playoffs, and still be within our team budget.

 

We had to trade one player who happens to be a personal Fav of mine but screw it the team is overall better then what we had last year. The rotation is lights out and the lineup very capable of putting up monster like numbers while still improving our speed and D. As for the bullpen I think Percival/Beck would be a great pick up and would make us that much stronger in this area for the amount of money. I would be happy with this team very Happy. The only thing I would like to add to this team would be maybe a good off the bench type guy other then that I would be pleased.

 

Total Payroll on the high side just under 75 million very much doable

[witesoxfan]

That Plan of yours is dumb let me explain why ok.

 

A. Why trade both Lee and PK  prospects & 6 million for Hudson and Byrnes Makes no sense

Explains everything perfectly. I make several posts defending my trade and every point of the trade, and why all 3 teams would make the deal, and how much it actually does benefit the White Sox...

 

...and you're explanation as to why it's dumb is because it makes no sense.

 

Wow. Simply wow.

 

1. My ideal trade would be this Pk and "A" prospect to the D-Backs for Randy Johnson. Pk is making 8.75 million, Randy is making 16 million with 6 million defferred so payroll hit for this year is 10 million or 1.25 million more then what were paying PK.  Payroll = 63.5 million ( maybe less if the D-Back throw in some cash )

 

I cannot confirm this to be true, but I have read where if RJ is traded his deferred money becomes upfront money. Meaning if we trade for him, he will make $16.5 mill next year, not $10 mill.

 

Another thing...are you saying you will trade like an A-level prospect for him, a grade A prospect for him, or a(meaning one) prospect for him along with Konerko? Regardless...none of those would get the trade done. NY can easily come over the top of that with Posada and Vazquez while taking on most of those two's contracts and taking on all of RJ's.

 

The DBacks essentially have to trade RJ...but he's still a top 3 pitcher in the majors, and will still cost a ton to trade for, even considering he's 41.

 

3. Sign Einar Diaz as our catcher he should be around 1-2 million per year play good D and has a solid arm behind the plate plus he can hit. Very solid player payroll = high side 69.5 million

 

Signing Diaz upgrades absolutely nothing. He hit .220 last year, had an OPS of under .600 last year, and hasn't had an OBP of over .300 since 2001, when his OBP was .328. Someone else can sign Einar.

 

4.Option A. Sign Scott Williamson From the Redsox Great bullpen guy who could fill the void at closer should Shingo falter this year estimated price I will set high considering he had a bad year last year we'll say 2.5 mil - 3 million payroll = 72.5 million

 

Williamson is damaged goods and would be a risky pickup. I want to say that he is in line to have some type of surgery, but I can't be certain on that.

 

If he were healthy, he would definately be good, but I'm just not sure how healthy he is.

 

Option B Rod Beck Is he old yes can he still pitch YES would he be cheap YES. 1 mil - 2 million which I think is real high for him payroll is now at 71.5 million

 

Rod Beck had an ERA of 6.38 last year, a K/BB of 1.7, had a K/9 of 5.6, had a BB/9 of 3.3, and a WHIP of 1.50 last year...all that in less then half a season in San Diego. He was cut because he was pitching so s***ty.

 

Can he still pitch - no. I think I answered your question. I want no part of Rod Beck, and I don't think anyone else does either.

 

1. Omar SS

2. Rowand CF

3. Thomas DH

4. Everett RF

5. Lee LF

6. Uribe 2B

7. Gload 1B

8. Crede 3B

9. Diaz C

 

Not sure if your lineup is any better then either of mine, quite honestly.

 

Bench

Harris

Perez

Davis

Burke

 

Why would we have Davis and Burke on the bench with Diaz starting? Diaz/Davis is a waste of space if the other is on the team.

 

Rotation

1. Randy

2. Freddy

3. Mark

4. Conteras

5. Garland

 

Again, not sure how much better this rotation is then mine, and mine is more cost effective and will be around longer then yours too.

 

Marte LH setupman

Williamson/Beck RH setupman

Shingo Closer

 

Politte

Adkins

Cotts

Diaz

 

I'm just going to ignore Beck's name next to that setup man role.

 

Also...I still don't see how this is any better then mine either. In fact, I'd say it's worse. I do think I'd rather have Percival over Williamson.

 

 

 

I think basically, you did essentially what I did, only instead, it costs us more money and is probably done after this year, because I'm not sure how much longer Unit can keep going and I'm not sure if we would be able to resign Unit.

[santo=dorf]

Wite, you actually think Hudson would sign an extension after being traded to us?

[qwerty]

Wite, you actually think Hudson would sign an extension after being traded to us?

It would have to be worked out before hand that he would sign the extension.

[witesoxfan]

Wite, you actually think Hudson would sign an extension after being traded to us?

I wasn't sure Freddy would, but he did. Stranger stuff has happened

 

That would be part of the deal. If Hudson would not sign an extension, there is no deal.

 

I could maybe see a 3-year, $39 mill deal or something in that general area with like a $15 mill option for the 4th year.

[santo=dorf]

I wasn't sure Freddy would, but he did.  Stranger stuff has happened

 

That would be part of the deal.  If Hudson would not sign an extension, there is no deal.

 

I could maybe see a 3-year, $39 mill deal or something in that general area with like a $15 mill option for the 4th year.

Yeah, but can we afford that? You have us giving out $6 million for the next two years......ah f*** it! Just let this die.

 

And as for not being sure about Freddy re-signing with the Sox, he's almost brothers with Ozzie. I knew for sure he was going to sign an extension, but I didn't realize he was only going to resign for an average of $9 million per year.

[The_Godfather]

"Rod Beck had an ERA of 6.38 last year, a K/BB of 1.7, had a K/9 of 5.6, had a BB/9 of 3.3, and a WHIP of 1.50 last year...all that in less then half a season in San Diego. He was cut because he was pitching so s***ty.

 

Can he still pitch - no. I think I answered your question. I want no part of Rod Beck, and I don't think anyone else does either."

 

 

Beck had one bad year in his last 5 years I would be more then glad to add him for the price he will be asking.... Which I bet will be less then a million he is well worth the gamble for a non guranteed contract... look at his stats for yourself

 

http://bigleaguers.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/4641/career

 

 

"Why would we have Davis and Burke on the bench with Diaz starting? Diaz/Davis is a waste of space if the other is on the team"

 

Ozzie likes to have three catchers on the team that was proven and stated by Ozzie himself.

 

As for Einars performance last year he played a total of 36 games so give me a break He has hit well is the past and would be a huge upgrade on the defensive side over the guys we have on the roster right now.

 

"Explains everything perfectly. I make several posts defending my trade and every point of the trade, and why all 3 teams would make the deal, and how much it actually does benefit the White Sox...

 

...and you're explanation as to why it's dumb is because it makes no sense.

 

Wow. Simply wow."

 

There is a reason why I really didnt waste the time explaining to you why I dont like your trade, one in which I thought you could figure out but since you can't let me explain it in detail for you then.

 

1. Your trading two of your best players for a good SP and A slightly above average hitter untop of that your giving up 3 prospects to A guy in Billy boy who lives from taking other people trash and turning them into stars. Not to mention throw in 6 million dollars as if we have the money to just throw around.

 

2. Not only do you trade 2 of our most produtive hitters you do nothing to try and replace their numbers do you really think adding byrnes and gload to the lineup makes up for Lee's and PK's production???

 

3. If kenny would do this trade he would be laughed out of baseball by every GM out there. That is how stupid that trade offer of your is.

 

"Another thing...are you saying you will trade like an A-level prospect for him, a grade A prospect for him, or a(meaning one) prospect for him along with Konerko? Regardless...none of those would get the trade done. NY can easily come over the top of that with Posada and Vazquez while taking on most of those two's contracts and taking on all of RJ's."

 

A prospect as in "one". NY has one chip on their side and that is Vazquez which they will not trade regardless of what you may have read it will not happen. As for Posada incase you didnt notice the D-Backs are trying to go young they know they have no shot at the world series within the next few years so for them to trade Randy for Jorge makes no sense at all considering he is about 33 y/o. on the other hand PK fills a void for them at 1B Sexson is all but gone after being insulted with the offers they threw his way in wake of his injury this past season. If they can get a 40 homer first basemen and a top lvl prospect for Randy YES they will jump all over that watch.

 

"Williamson is damaged goods and would be a risky pickup. I want to say that he is in line to have some type of surgery, but I can't be certain on that.

 

If he were healthy, he would definately be good, but I'm just not sure how healthy he is."

 

This one I will give you I didnt know the how badly he was hurt when making that statement But i would still consider signing him cause he is a stud to have in the bullpen. He is gone all of next year though so it is a gamble.Signing him would be looking toward 2006 before he would be ready. Kinda like what the yanks did with Lieber.

 

Your Lineup

Byrnes - CF

Vizquel - SS

Thomas - DH

Koskie - 3B

Rowand - RF

Everett - LF

Uribe - 2B

Gload - 1B

Davis - C

I think My lineup is far better then that

My Lineup

1. Omar SS

2. Rowand CF

3. Thomas DH

4. Everett RF

5. Lee LF

6. Uribe 2B

7. Gload 1B

8. Crede 3B

9. Diaz C

 

"Again, not sure how much better this rotation is then mine, and mine is more cost effective and will be around longer then yours too."

 

The reason My rotation of

 

Randy

Freddy

Mark

Conteras

Garland

 

Is better then your

 

Hudson

Mark

Freddy

Conteras

Garland

 

Its simple My rotation doesnt take away from our lineup as much as your would with My rotaion and us trading for Randy we only have to part with PK and one or two minor leaguers which is fine by me.

 

Yours on the other hand we have to part with both PK, and Lee + 3 prospects + 6 million dollars which I hate to say would come off our payroll which would mean our payroll would be 67-69 million instead of 73-75 million. Now I know your gonna say well we get Byrnes two. So what It still doesnt make this trade worth it Lee is MUCH better then Byrnes without doubt. That being said if we could get Hudson for PK and a couple of prospects that would be fine but that is not what your suggesting.

[witesoxfan]

Yeah, but can we afford that?  You have us giving out $6 million for the next two years......ah f*** it!  Just let this die.

 

And as for not being sure about Freddy re-signing with the Sox, he's almost brothers with Ozzie.  I knew for sure he was going to sign an extension, but I didn't realize he was only going to resign for an average of $9 million per year.

LOL...it's frustrating, but it hasnt resorted to name calling anyways. Considering Soxtalk's general consensus on the trade, I'm surprised I haven't been called worse names then I already have on this thread. It'll die in due time

 

Regarding the actual numbers...Hudson would be making around $11-12 mill in 06, Garcia $10, Buehrle about $6, Contreras like $8, and Garland would either have to be gone, or he'd have to be good(probably would make around $4-5 mill). Quite honestly, I do not see both Contreras and Garland on the team in 06...it'll be one or the other. Financially...I hope it's Garland. There's always a possibility that he is so bad that we just can't have him there too, or there's the possibility that Contreras busts out and becomes a stud starter. Adding that up real quick, I get anywhere from $31 mill to $36 mill. That's a lot of money...like half the team's payroll...committed to the rotation.

 

Add in the $2 mill we have kicked in for 06...and it's anywhere from $33 to $38 mill. And then you factor in $10 mill that Frank will make, and we will have to have a patchwork offense for the next couple years the way Oakland has done it, and we'll have to hope the young and cheap guys can produce(guys like Gload, Byrnes, Rowand, Uribe, Crede, Davis, Burke, Harris, Fields when he's ready, Anderson when he comes up, Sweeney too...they have to produce and they can't be god awful like Borchard has been). That's gotta be how you do it, period.

 

It's a lot of money...I will not deny that. What I will say though is that this is, technically, not getting away from the hit or miss style of game we were trying to get away from...not at all. If anything, it's doing the exact same thing...if just one of those guys does down, we are f***ed.

[witesoxfan]

Beck had one bad year in his last 5 years I would be more then glad to add him for the price he will be asking.... Which I bet will be less then a million he is well worth the gamble for a non guranteed contract... look at his stats for yourself

You misread his stats.

 

2004 was terrible. He missed all of 2002. And his ERA in 1999 was 5.93...he pitched with mainly the Cubs, but also the Sawks.

 

He's not even worthy of being a NRI...let someone else take him. We have enough younger arms that can do mopup work for us next year.

 

Ozzie likes to have three catchers on the team that was proven and stated by Ozzie himself.

 

As for Einars performance last year he played a total of 36 games so give me a break He has hit well is the past and would be a huge upgrade on the defensive side over the guys we have on the roster right now.

 

Ozzie likes having 3 guys on the roster who can play catcher. Not necessarily 3 catchers.

 

Having 3 catchers like that would be a huge mistake. There's no need for it. In an absolute emergency, someone like Crede or Uribe could play catcher for a little bit.

 

Also...Einar really adds nothing. I want no piece of Einar Diaz.

 

1. Your trading two of your best players for a good SP and A slightly above average hitter untop of that your giving up 3 prospects to A guy in Billy boy who lives from taking other people trash and turning them into stars. Not to mention throw in 6 million dollars as if we have the money to just throw around.

 

I'm trading our best player and a damn solid 1Bman, who make a combined $16.5 mill, for a top 3 starting pitcher and a cheap, young, good player in Eric Byrnes who has gotten better in each of the last 3 seasons, meaning there is nothing stopping him really from hitting .290 30 100 .850 25 except himself.

 

I did mention above that the prospects could be taken out...but that if the A's would ask for them, I would give them. You don't let a couple potential could be's ruin the trade.

 

And do I need to go over the Marlins example again? Them taking on $30 mill over 3 years? $10 mill(which is what it is...not $6 mill, which would be too beneficial) over 3 years is very little.

 

 

2. Not only do you trade 2 of our most produtive hitters you do nothing to try and replace their numbers do you really think adding byrnes and gload to the lineup makes up for Lee's and PK's production???

 

Uh, hello? Part of the offseason plan would be to bring in Koskie or Guillen with some of the money left over to help make the offense a little stronger.

 

3. If kenny would do this trade he would be laughed out of baseball by every GM out there. That is how stupid that trade offer of your is.

 

That's not even a reason. That's your opinion.

 

NY has one chip on their side and that is Vazquez which they will not trade regardless of what you may have read it will not happen. As for Posada incase you didnt notice the D-Backs are trying to go young they know they have no shot at the world series within the next few years so for them to trade Randy for Jorge makes no sense at all considering he is about 33 y/o. on the other hand PK fills a void for them at 1B Sexson is all but gone after being insulted with the offers they threw his way in wake of his injury this past season. If they can get a 40 homer first basemen and a top lvl prospect for Randy YES they will jump all over that watch.

 

That paragraph completely contradicts itself. First of all, the Yankees would trade Vazquez as part of a package for Johnson if they could.

 

Getting to my main point...you mention how Zona wouldn't take Posada because they are going younger, yet note how they would take Konerko because he fills a hole. If they are going younger, are they going to worry about the holes in their lineup?

 

Posada and Vazquez plus their contracts for RJ and his entire contract is a much better offer then Konerko plus a prospect for RJ...Arizona gets more for him, and is still saving money too.

 

It will take more then Konerko and a prospect to get RJ. Period.

 

 

Byrnes = Vizquel

Vizquel

Thomas = Thomas

Koskie > Everett

Rowand

Everett = Uribe

Uribe > Gload

Gload > Crede

Davis = Diaz

 

I think I'm judging this fairly...if not, someone say something...but as far as I can tell, from the looks of it...my lineup appears a little better the yours(and one could argue that Davis is better then Diaz too, making the bottom of my lineup even stronger then yours)

 

Even seeing that...you can't judge rotations by the offense, which is exactly what you do.

 

"My rotation doesnt take away from our lineup as much as your would"

 

So how does how the offense goes effect how we pitch?

 

Another thing...I'm not sure you understand the money yet. We take on $4 mill in 05, $2 mill in 06, and $4 mill in 07...and even after doing that, we are still $5 mill up even after including the $4 mill on Kendall's contract for this year.

 

That being said if we could get Hudson for PK and a couple of prospects that would be fine but that is not what your suggesting.

 

No we couldn't. You take Beane to be the fool that he isn't. Beane has no use for Konerko at all...he can get roughly the same production at a fraction of the cost in Durazo. Why would he want a guy that hit .240 on the road with an OPS of .700? It is quite obvious Konerko's numbers are USCF inflated.

[The_Godfather]

[

You misread his stats.

 

2004 was terrible. He missed all of 2002. And his ERA in 1999 was 5.93...he pitched with mainly the Cubs, but also the Sawks.

 

He's not even worthy of being a NRI...let someone else take him. We have enough younger arms that can do mopup work for us next year

]

 

Instead of focusing on his bad numbers 2 out of the five years why not look at the great numbers he has put up in 3 of those years including a 1.70 era 20 sv's with a 1.07 whip as recent as 2003???

 

[

Ozzie likes having 3 guys on the roster who can play catcher. Not necessarily 3 catchers.

 

Having 3 catchers like that would be a huge mistake. There's no need for it. In an absolute emergency, someone like Crede or Uribe could play catcher for a little bit.

 

Also...Einar really adds nothing. I want no piece of Einar Diaz.

]

 

Again Diaz is a great Defensive C with a rocket for an arm... As for his offensice skills that is a judgement call but I say he could easily out hit the guys we have right now.

 

[

I'm trading our best player and a damn solid 1Bman, who make a combined $16.5 mill, for a top 3 starting pitcher and a cheap, young, good player in Eric Byrnes who has gotten better in each of the last 3 seasons, meaning there is nothing stopping him really from hitting .290 30 100 .850 25 except himself.

 

I did mention above that the prospects could be taken out...but that if the A's would ask for them, I would give them. You don't let a couple potential could be's ruin the trade.]

 

Even if you take out the prospects you still dont do this trade. Byrnes is not as young as you may think he will be 29 on opening day 2005 for your information.

As for his numbers being so great you compare then with CLee and tell me it worth it.

 

The Players you want

 

http://bigleaguers.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/6558/career Eric Byrnes stats

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/6245/career Tim Hudsons Stats

 

The players you want to Give up plus prospects and 6 million

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/6161/career Carlos Lees Stats

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/5908/career Paul Konerkos Stats

 

Byrnes is not that good he has had one good year and yea it was better then is season in 03 when he hit .263......263 yes .263 which last time I checked wasnt something I would not like to have at the top of my order and BTW he is 29!!!! not really what I call Young.

 

Much rather Keep Lee thank you very much he is YOUNGER and BETTER!!

 

[

Uh, hello? Part of the offseason plan would be to bring in Koskie or Guillen with some of the money left over to help make the offense a little stronger

.]

 

Koskie is not really a need for us I'm ok with us going into the season with Crede at 3rd base I think he will finally put it all together this season. If im not mistaken Koskie hit something like .250 last year yea he had 25 homers big deal.This is not a need for us If crede really sucks that bad we can just move urbie over to third.

 

As for Guillen NO THANKS he is a Cancer and would not mix well with the group of guys we have chemistry is everything in sports if your clubhouse morale is down you can forget about winning anything for that simple reason I pass on Jose let someone else take him off the Angels hands I want no part of the guy.

 

[

That paragraph completely contradicts itself. First of all, the Yankees would trade Vazquez as part of a package for Johnson if they could.

 

Getting to my main point...you mention how Zona wouldn't take Posada because they are going younger, yet note how they would take Konerko because he fills a hole. If they are going younger, are they going to worry about the holes in their lineup?

 

Posada and Vazquez plus their contracts for RJ and his entire contract is a much better offer then Konerko plus a prospect for RJ...Arizona gets more for him, and is still saving money too.

 

It will take more then Konerko and a prospect to get RJ. Period

.

]

 

No they wont trade him they have invested too much into him to turn around and trade him for a guy they will only have for maybe 2 years. Think about it the Yanks waited two years before trading Conteras why do you think cause they still had hope he would get better that is the same thing they will do it Vazquez.

 

Now the whole D-Backs going younger well If im right here PK is only 28 which is not Old but not young either but assuming that the chois is PK and a prospect for Randy or Jorge which they already said NO to I chose PK if I'm them. He fill the Void left by Sexson in everyaspect and is a guy they can have around for the next 4-5 years without spending a load of money on him like they would have to with Delgado or Sexson.

 

[

It will take more then Konerko and a prospect to get RJ. Period

.]

 

If it took Pk, Garland, Prospect I would still much rather do that trade then the one you are saying.

 

[byrnes = Vizquel Byrnes = Vizquel Agree

Vizquel

Thomas = Thomas Thomas = Thomas Duh

Koskie > Everett Koskie

Rowand

Everett = Uribe Everett > Uribe See point made above ^^

Uribe > Gload Uribe = Gload. think Uribe was a fluke jmo

Gload > Crede Gload = Crede.Jury is out on this one

Davis = Diaz Davis

Question.

 

[

So how does how the offense goes effect how we pitch

?]

 

It is clear that when pitchers have bigger leads they feel more comfortable and make pitches that they wouldnt if they didnt have that big lead. In other words the pitchers challenge the hitters to hit the ball more when they have big leads or leads period. Instead of having to live on the corners or picking and nibbling away they can go after the hitters which has always been the best way to go. By doing my trade we would still have a good lineup which would in turn make our pitching that much better. Cause they would be able to go after the hitters instead of trying to be mistake free.... Which only leads to them getting hit hard.

[witesoxfan]

Instead of focusing on his bad numbers 2 out of the five years why not look at the great numbers he has put up in 3 of those years including a 1.70 era 20 sv's with a 1.07 whip as recent as 2003???

 

Because when you ignore the poor numbers, you are doing yourself in.

 

Billy Koch had good years in 2 of his previous 3 years coming into Chicago, while Keith Foulke hadn't had a bad year since 1998. Koch's peripherals were never good, while Foulke's were almost always good. Ignoring the poor numbers, KW made the trade anyways...and it bit him in the ass big time.

 

You can't ignore bad numbers from a guy with a surgically repaired arm who is 36 years old. Beck is no longer good, and would not be a good pickup.

 

Again Diaz is a great Defensive C with a rocket for an arm... As for his offensice skills that is a judgement call but I say he could easily out hit the guys we have right now.

 

The last time Diaz had a decent year was 01, so I see no reason why he would just magically come to Chicago and be awesome. There is no use for him at all. Davis and Burke can handle it, and by using just Davis and Burke, we are saving ourselves the $1 mill we would spend on Diaz.

 

Even if you take out the prospects you still dont do this trade. Byrnes is not as young as you may think he will be 29 on opening day 2005 for your information.

As for his numbers being so great you compare then with CLee and tell me it worth it.

 

Konerko's not as good as you think. Sure he hit 40 homers...but roughly 75%(29 of 41) of them came at home. And his OPS of .700 on the road is not good either.

 

I can tell you why it's worth it. Byrnes is on a 3 year inclination in several important categories(his average has gone from .245 to .263 to .283, his homers have gone from 3 to 12 to 20, his runs have gone from 24 to 64 to 91, his hits have gone from 23 to 109 to 161, his RBI have gone from 11 to 51 to 73, his SBs have gone from 3 to 10 to 17, his OBP has gone from .291 to .333 to .347, his SLG% has gone from .426 to .459 to .467, so therefore, his OPS has gone from .717 to .792 to .814), and while he wouldn't be nearly as good as Carlos(who could very well put up .310 35 110 .900 next year), he is much more cost effective. Compare Byrnes's likely .290 25 75 25 .800 to Lee's .310 35 110 10 .900 while also considering that Byrnes will make around $1 mill next year and Lee will make $8 mill.

 

And so Byrnes is 29. He's still gotten better every year he's been in the majors, so I see no reason why that wouldn't continue, especially with the Sox. I didn't think he was some 25 year old young stud barely coming out of college. I also knew he was not like a 35 year old player who's bordering on being washed up.

 

You'd say that both Konerko and Lee are still young, so why would you not say that Byrnes is still young?

 

Byrnes is not that good he has had one good year and yea it was better then is season in 03 when he hit .263......263 yes .263 which last time I checked wasnt something I would not like to have at the top of my order and BTW he is 29!!!! not really what I call Young.

 

Why are you dwelling on his 2003 numbers? He hit .283 in 04 with a .347 OBP, and I've already made note of his 3 year inclination, so those numbers would likely improve too. You are not getting .263 at the top of the order, you are getting .283. What do you NOT understand about that?

 

Much rather Keep Lee thank you very much he is YOUNGER and BETTER!!

 

He's younger by 4 months. Congratulations.

 

And he also costs $7 mill more then Byrnes does, and you will get similar production out of him too.

 

Koskie is not really a need for us I'm ok with us going into the season with Crede at 3rd base I think he will finally put it all together this season. If im not mistaken Koskie hit something like .250 last year yea he had 25 homers big deal.This is not a need for us If crede really sucks that bad we can just move urbie over to third.

 

You said that the Sox needed to replace the production they lost in trading Kong and Lee and only getting 1 hitter back, now you say that Koskie is really not a need. Quit contradicting yourself.

 

Koskie replaces Crede, who would probably hit in the .250 25 .750 neighborhood, while Koskie will probably put up somewhere between a .260 and .280 average(considering that this year's .250 average was his lowest average ever in the major leagues) 25-30 homers, gold glove defense at 3B, and an OPS around .820 and .850, with the possibility of it being even better then that. Him staying healthy is the biggest concern I would have, because he has proven to be a little injury prone over the last few years. If he gets a little banged up, Harris will start a few more games then usual with Uribe slipping over to 3B. The move is that simple.

 

As for Guillen NO THANKS he is a Cancer and would not mix well with the group of guys we have chemistry is everything in sports if your clubhouse morale is down you can forget about winning anything for that simple reason I pass on Jose let someone else take him off the Angels hands I want no part of the guy.

 

You don't know he wouldn't mix well. It's been used ad nauseam, but we do have a big group of hispanic players in the clubhouse, and there is an outside chance that Guillen would fit well here. There's also the chance that Ozzie would embrace him and try to make him fit in with the group. Stranger things have happened before.

 

And even if he is a s***head...he's still gonna hit probably .300 30 110 .900. That's awesome for $4 mill or so. And then we let him go at the end of the year. Simple as that.

 

No they wont trade him they have invested too much into him to turn around and trade him for a guy they will only have for maybe 2 years. Think about it the Yanks waited two years before trading Conteras why do you think cause they still had hope he would get better that is the same thing they will do it Vazquez.

 

Why would they not trade Vazquez for probably the best starter on the market? If they had the opportunity to trade Contreras and others to Arizona for RJ, they would have done it in a heartbeat. They've invested a ton in Vazquez, yeah, but they can also trade him for RJ, which is another huge investment. They'd do that in a second. That type of thing means very little to the Yankees.

 

Now the whole D-Backs going younger well If im right here PK is only 28 which is not Old but not young either but assuming that the chois is PK and a prospect for Randy or Jorge which they already said NO to I chose PK if I'm them. He fill the Void left by Sexson in everyaspect and is a guy they can have around for the next 4-5 years without spending a load of money on him like they would have to with Delgado or Sexson.

 

They'll take Posada and Vazquez(and a bunch of money) over Konerko and a prospect any day of the week. Period.

 

Koskie > Everett Koskie

 

Koskie is consistently a .270 20 80 .820 type player, while Everett is a .270 20 80 .775 type hitter, with Koskie really being able to be reap benefits for moving to USCF. His numbers would potentially see a huge spike upwards. Everett's never had awesome numbers here at any point.

 

They are probably equally good hitters in good years though, so I'll leave it at that.

 

Everett = Uribe Everett > Uribe See point made above ^^

 

Everett is still a .270 20 80 .775 guy, while Uribe is a .280 25 70 .800 guy. If anything, Uribe is a little better, but being equal hitters is good enough for me.

 

Uribe > Gload Uribe = Gload.  think Uribe was a fluke jmo

 

Gload has never had a full season. Uribe has. Uribe's the better hitter until proven otherwise, regardless of whether he was a fluke or not(and he wasn't BTW...it was just the same old story of a young hitter starting to mature and grow more consistent with more playing time in the MLB).

 

Gload > Crede Gload = Crede.Jury is out on this one

 

You are probably right. I'd agree.

 

Davis = Diaz Davis

 

What does what he would do with the glove have to do with hitting? That's even more absurd then saying a pitching staff is better because of what the lineup does.

 

And, I have mentioned it before...Diaz has not hit .270 since 2001. Why would coming here magically make him a good hitter? Diaz would have no spot on this team, so signing him would be a waste of money. Davis-Burke will be the catching tandem next year.

 

If anything, I'd say Davis > Diaz...but I digress

 

It is clear that when pitchers have bigger leads they feel more comfortable and make pitches that they wouldnt if they didnt have that big lead. In other words the pitchers challenge the hitters to hit the ball more when they have big leads or leads period. Instead of having to live on the corners or picking and nibbling away they can go after the hitters which has always been the best way to go. By doing my trade we would still have a good lineup which would in turn make our pitching that much better. Cause they would be able to go after the hitters instead of trying to be mistake free.... Which only leads to them getting hit hard.

 

It definately helps to pitch with leads...but saying your pitching staff would be better then mine because the offense is better(which it really is not) is wrong. A pitching staff will be as good as it is regardless of what the offense does. Period.

[The_Godfather]

Because when you ignore the poor numbers, you are doing yourself in.

 

Billy Koch had good years in 2 of his previous 3 years coming into Chicago, while Keith Foulke hadn't had a bad year since 1998. Koch's peripherals were never good, while Foulke's were almost always good. Ignoring the poor numbers, KW made the trade anyways...and it bit him in the ass big time.

 

You can't ignore bad numbers from a guy with a surgically repaired arm who is 36 years old. Beck is no longer good, and would not be a good pickup.

 

Here is what Im saying regarding this..... If we can sign him to Minor League contract why the hell not??? What would it hurt us? He possible could really be a huge help in the late Innings, and if he sucks it up you can just release him not really that big of a deal.

 

The last time Diaz had a decent year was 01, so I see no reason why he would just magically come to Chicago and be awesome. There is no use for him at all. Davis and Burke can handle it, and by using just Davis and Burke, we are saving ourselves the $1 mill we would spend on Diaz.

 

Defense Defense Defense. This guy is a GREAT defensive Catcher with a rocket for an arm. How does this help the sox by keeping basestealers or would be basestealers at first instead of running on us and being in scoring position. Another you sit here and say over and over how much hitting at the cell would help your guys you want does that not apply to Diaz??? He would be an upgrade.

 

I can tell you why it's worth it. Byrnes is on a 3 year inclination in several important categories(his average has gone from .245 to .263 to .283, his homers have gone from 3 to 12 to 20, his runs have gone from 24 to 64 to 91, his hits have gone from 23 to 109 to 161, his RBI have gone from 11 to 51 to 73, his SBs have gone from 3 to 10 to 17, his OBP has gone from .291 to .333 to .347, his SLG% has gone from .426 to .459 to .467, so therefore, his OPS has gone from .717 to .792 to .814), and while he wouldn't be nearly as good as Carlos(who could very well put up .310 35 110 .900 next year), he is much more cost effective. Compare Byrnes's likely .290 25 75 25 .800 to Lee's .310 35 110 10 .900 while also considering that Byrnes will make around $1 mill next year and Lee will make $8 mill.

 

Byrnes is not even close to the same player Lee is you have got to be out of your dam mind. There is no comparing Carlos with Byrnes this is one topic that is just stupid. Byrnes is a bottom of the order guy while lee is a perfect number three -five hitter. I would gladly pay him the 8 million then trade him for byrnes. What kinda Sos fan are you that you would be so eager to trade our best player for a BUM...READ IT A BUM. If just cause Byrnes avg. and homers. and whichever other stats have gone up each of the last three years makes you think that its such a good move let me ask you this then. Would you trade Lee and his 8 million for a guy like Coco Crisp??? NO you wouldnt why?? Cause your not getting market value for him we Coco Crisp numbers have gone up three straight years as well and his ops has gotten better and he's cheap. My point is this Lee is a MVP type player you dont trade those type of players with out getting someone who is similar to him whether it is a pitcher or hitter.

 

Why are you dwelling on his 2003 numbers? He hit .283 in 04 with a .347 OBP, and I've already made note of his 3 year inclination, so those numbers would likely improve too. You are not getting .263 at the top of the order, you are getting .283. What do you NOT understand about that?

 

Well you can't ignore bad numbers and he has had some bad numbers before last season. Man I swear you said the same thing about Beck didn't you??? Lets see

 

Because when you ignore the poor numbers, you are doing yourself in.

 

You can't ignore bad numbers.

 

Yep sure as hell seems like you did say that huh now who is making contradicting statements. So let me get this right it's ok for your guy to have bad numbers the guy you want to trade Lee ( OUR BEST HITTER )for, but its not ok for beck to have bad number who I would sign for a minor league deal yea that makes alot of sense.

 

He's younger by 4 months. Congratulations.

 

And he also costs $7 mill more then Byrnes does, and you will get similar production out of him too.

Like I said before I would still rather pay Lee an extra 7 million then trade him for Byrnes. Do you have his posters hanging in your room??? cause this love affair of yours is really blinding your sight cause im sure everyone on this board would agree with me you dont trade Lee for him.

 

You said that the Sox needed to replace the production they lost in trading Kong and Lee and only getting 1 hitter back, now you say that Koskie is really not a need. Quit contradicting yourself.

 

Koskie replaces Crede, who would probably hit in the .250 25 .750 neighborhood, while Koskie will probably put up somewhere between a .260 and .280 average(considering that this year's .250 average was his lowest average ever in the major leagues) 25-30 homers, gold glove defense at 3B, and an OPS around .820 and .850, with the possibility of it being even better then that. Him staying healthy is the biggest concern I would have, because he has proven to be a little injury prone over the last few years. If he gets a little banged up, Harris will start a few more games then usual with Uribe slipping over to 3B. The move is that simple.

 

The whole first part I dont even know what the hell your talking about, I never stated I wanted Koskie I think he would be a waste of money considering you yourself have him projected at 260 and 280 avg with 25-30 homers for I dont know lets be easy here and say 4 million. My question is why waste the money we have a guy who plays solid D at thrid and can hit 250 with 25 homers where is the benfit of adding Koskie. Not to mention that he is VERY injury prone I want nothing to do with the guy. Oh one more thing Crede makes guessing here but I would say less then a million per year right now. So were gonna just add three million on to the payroll for no reason ... WOW that is Genius

 

You don't know he wouldn't mix well. It's been used ad nauseam, but we do have a big group of hispanic players in the clubhouse, and there is an outside chance that Guillen would fit well here. There's also the chance that Ozzie would embrace him and try to make him fit in with the group. Stranger things have happened before.

 

And even if he is a s***head...he's still gonna hit probably .300 30 110 .900. That's awesome for $4 mill or so. And then we let him go at the end of the year. Simple as that.

 

Sorry just a risk I would rather not take. BTW they have a huge group of Latin players in Anaheim and he was still a problem. Think it would be a mistake, not taking away from his talent but I would just as much take a pass on him.

 

What does what he would do with the glove have to do with hitting?

 

Catchers are there to call games, play solid Defense, and keep baserunners from stealing which Diaz can do. It is very important to have a good defensive Catcher one who can stop wild pitches and hold base runners could help decide games by limiting the other teams from running , hit and run plays and so on. Not to mention it also helps the pitchers when they have confidence in the guy behind the plate. So even if he hit 250 he would still be a solid pickup based on his Defense alone and would help us win some games from the vantage.

 

It definately helps to pitch with leads...but saying your pitching staff would be better then mine because the offense is better(which it really is not) is wrong. A pitching staff will be as good as it is regardless of what the offense does. Period.

 

Look at it like this Lowe "redsox" had early leads in Both of the games that he started during the playoff's Both because he had leads which allowed him to go after hitters harder then if he was trailing or knotted up at 0. That is how an offense helps your pitching staff it takes the pressure off them byt scoring runs early which takes the burden off the pitchers some.

 

BTW My offense is A hell of alot better then yours so PLEASE dont compare them cause there is no comparison.

 

We both feel strongly on our own idea so I will just agree to disagree with you cause now this is just getting to the point where we are repeating the same statements over and over again and the post keep getting longer and longer. I still wouldnt do that trade though JMO.

[quade36]

Because when you ignore the poor numbers, you are doing yourself in. 

 

Billy Koch had good years in 2 of his previous 3 years coming into Chicago, while Keith Foulke hadn't had a bad year since 1998.  Koch's peripherals were never good, while Foulke's were almost always good.  Ignoring the poor numbers, KW made the trade anyways...and it bit him in the ass big time.

 

You can't ignore bad numbers from a guy with a surgically repaired arm who is 36 years old.  Beck is no longer good, and would not be a good pickup.

 

 

 

The last time Diaz had a decent year was 01, so I see no reason why he would just magically come to Chicago and be awesome.  There is no use for him at all.  Davis and Burke can handle it, and by using just Davis and Burke, we are saving ourselves the $1 mill we would spend on Diaz. 

 

 

 

Konerko's not as good as you think.  Sure he hit 40 homers...but roughly 75%(29 of 41) of them came at home.  And his OPS of .700 on the road is not good either. 

 

I can tell you why it's worth it.  Byrnes is on a 3 year inclination in several important categories(his average has gone from .245 to .263 to .283, his homers have gone from 3 to 12 to 20, his runs have gone from 24 to 64 to 91, his hits have gone from 23 to 109 to 161, his RBI have gone from 11 to 51 to 73, his SBs have gone from 3 to 10 to 17, his OBP has gone from .291 to .333 to .347, his SLG% has gone from .426 to .459 to .467, so therefore, his OPS has gone from .717 to .792 to .814), and while he wouldn't be nearly as good as Carlos(who could very well put up .310 35 110 .900 next year), he is much more cost effective.  Compare Byrnes's likely .290 25 75 25 .800 to Lee's .310 35 110 10 .900 while also considering that Byrnes will make around $1 mill next year and Lee will make $8 mill. 

 

And so Byrnes is 29.  He's still gotten better every year he's been in the majors, so I see no reason why that wouldn't continue, especially with the Sox.  I didn't think he was some 25 year old young stud barely coming out of college.  I also knew he was not like a 35 year old player who's bordering on being washed up. 

 

You'd say that both Konerko and Lee are still young, so why would you not say that Byrnes is still young?

 

 

 

Why are you dwelling on his 2003 numbers?  He hit .283 in 04 with a .347 OBP, and I've already made note of his 3 year inclination, so those numbers would likely improve too.  You are not getting .263 at the top of the order, you are getting .283.  What do you NOT understand about that?

 

 

 

He's younger by 4 months.  Congratulations.

 

And he also costs $7 mill more then Byrnes does, and you will get similar production out of him too. 

 

 

 

You said that the Sox needed to replace the production they lost in trading Kong and Lee and only getting 1 hitter back, now you say that Koskie is really not a need.  Quit contradicting yourself.

 

Koskie replaces Crede, who would probably hit in the .250 25 .750 neighborhood, while Koskie will probably put up somewhere between a .260 and .280 average(considering that this year's .250 average was his lowest average ever in the major leagues) 25-30 homers, gold glove defense at 3B, and an OPS around .820 and .850, with the possibility of it being even better then that.  Him staying healthy is the biggest concern I would have, because he has proven to be a little injury prone over the last few years.  If he gets a little banged up, Harris will start a few more games then usual with Uribe slipping over to 3B.  The move is that simple.

 

 

 

You don't know he wouldn't mix well.  It's been used ad nauseam, but we do have a big group of hispanic players in the clubhouse, and there is an outside chance that Guillen would fit well here.  There's also the chance that Ozzie would embrace him and try to make him fit in with the group.  Stranger things have happened before.

 

And even if he is a s***head...he's still gonna hit probably .300 30 110 .900.  That's awesome for $4 mill or so.  And then we let him go at the end of the year.  Simple as that.

 

 

 

Why would they not trade Vazquez for probably the best starter on the market?  If they had the opportunity to trade Contreras and others to Arizona for RJ, they would have done it in a heartbeat.  They've invested a ton in Vazquez, yeah, but they can also trade him for RJ, which is another huge investment.  They'd do that in a second.  That type of thing means very little to the Yankees.

 

 

 

They'll take Posada and Vazquez(and a bunch of money) over Konerko and a prospect any day of the week.  Period.

 

 

 

Koskie is consistently a .270 20 80 .820 type player, while Everett is a .270 20 80 .775 type hitter, with Koskie really being able to be reap benefits for moving to USCF.  His numbers would potentially see a huge spike upwards.  Everett's never had awesome numbers here at any point.

 

They are probably equally good hitters in good years though, so I'll leave it at that.

 

 

 

Everett is still a .270 20 80 .775 guy, while Uribe is a .280 25 70 .800 guy.  If anything, Uribe is a little better, but being equal hitters is good enough for me.

 

 

 

Gload has never had a full season.  Uribe has.  Uribe's the better hitter until proven otherwise, regardless of whether he was a fluke or not(and he wasn't BTW...it was just the same old story of a young hitter starting to mature and grow more consistent with more playing time in the MLB). 

 

 

 

You are probably right.  I'd agree.

 

 

 

What does what he would do with the glove have to do with hitting?  That's even more absurd then saying a pitching staff is better because of what the lineup does.

 

And, I have mentioned it before...Diaz has not hit .270 since 2001.  Why would coming here magically make him a good hitter?  Diaz would have no spot on this team, so signing him would be a waste of money.  Davis-Burke will be the catching tandem next year.

 

If anything, I'd say Davis > Diaz...but I digress

 

 

 

It definately helps to pitch with leads...but saying your pitching staff would be better then mine because the offense is better(which it really is not) is wrong.  A pitching staff will be as good as it is regardless of what the offense does. Period.

Okay, This is just my opinion, but I think you believe Lee and Konerko are worse then the numbers they put up the past SIX years in the bigs. Konerko has put up solid numbers in 5 of his 6 years and Lee has put up solid numbers in all six.

 

Konerko's average per 162 games 29 HRs 99 RBIs.278 AVG

 

Lee's average per 162 games 28 HRs 102 RBIs .288 AVG

 

And the are both just entering their primes. They are both 28.

 

You know if they were to trade 1 of them for a quality pitcher I'd accept that, but on the other hand they both can put up monster numbers.

 

Now you are all up on Eric Brynes, someone who I think has never been and will never be more then a guy hitting .270 with 20 HRs. In 5 seasons he has a lower BA then both Konerko and Lee, has only 38 career HRs!!!! You are awfully big on a guy who hasn't done anything yet. If you are to say wait a couple of years, I'd rather wait for Ryan Sweeney or Brian Anderson.

 

Now you say offense doesn't mean a championship. I agree with that. But lets look at defense and intangibles. Lee last year did not make an error all year. He was one of the best OF in the league. Lee put up better defensive numbers then Byrnes. Konerko is a team leader. He is the kind of guy you want in your dugout. He thrives on winning and is the first to point the finger at himself if the team fails.

 

I don't see how in the world you can even put Eric Brynes in the same league as Lee and Konerko. I'd even put Aarond Rowand above Brynes. I'd probably put him in the same league as Jose Valentin, and will he be in the team next year?

 

So let me get this straight, you want to trade Lee, Konerko, and 10 mil for Hudson and Byrnes??? I'd love to have Hudson no doubt, I'd even trade 1 of them for him, but both? Thats a lot for a guy who was 12-6 with a 3.53 ERA last year and battled the injury bug.

 

Another question, why in the world would the Sox even think of trading for an OF, a position that in the next two years will be clustered???? Right now they have Lee, Rowand, and dare I say it, Bochard (who by they way they invested way too much money in to just give up on) After 2005 Anderson will be ready, after 2006 Sweeney will be ready. They picked up Alex Escobar as a diamond in the rough.

 

I could see the Sox trading Konerko and Bochard for Hudson and a mid-level prospect. Hmmm thats a good idea, no?

 

Your deal would be the same as trading Mark Buerhle and Freddy Garcia for Gary Sheffield and Kenny Lofton. Would you make that trade??????

 

I'm all for realistic trades, but this, my friend isn't even close.

[SuperSteve]

Just to say, I'm very torn on Byrnes. I know what he brings, but I just don't know how well he would play here and that scares me away.

[witesoxfan]

Konerko's average per 162 games 29 HRs 99 RBIs.278 AVG

 

Lee's average per 162 games 28 HRs 102 RBIs .288 AVG

 

And the are both just entering their primes.  They are both 28.

 

You know if they were to trade 1 of them for a quality pitcher I'd accept that, but on the other hand they both can put up monster numbers.

 

Now you are all up on Eric Brynes, someone who I think has never been and will never be more then a guy hitting .270 with 20 HRs.  In 5 seasons he has a lower BA then both Konerko and Lee, has only 38 career HRs!!!!  You are awfully big on a guy who hasn't done anything yet.  If you are to say wait a couple of years, I'd rather wait for Ryan Sweeney or Brian Anderson.

 

Now you say offense doesn't mean a championship.  I agree with that.  But lets look at defense and intangibles.  Lee last year did not make an error all year.  He was one of the best OF in the league.  Lee put up better defensive numbers then Byrnes.  Konerko is a team leader.  He is the kind of guy you want in your dugout.  He thrives on winning and is the first to point the finger at himself if the team fails. 

 

I don't see how in the world you can even put Eric Brynes in the same league as Lee and Konerko.  I'd even put Aarond Rowand above Brynes.  I'd probably put him in the same league as Jose Valentin, and will he be in the team next year?

 

So let me get this straight, you want to trade Lee, Konerko, and 10 mil for Hudson and Byrnes???  I'd love to have Hudson no doubt, I'd even trade 1 of them for him, but both?  Thats a lot for a guy who was 12-6 with a 3.53 ERA last year and battled the injury bug. 

 

Another question, why in the world would the Sox even think of trading for an OF, a position that in the next two years will be clustered????  Right now they have Lee, Rowand, and dare I say it, Bochard (who by they way they invested way too much money in to just give up on)  After 2005 Anderson will be ready, after 2006 Sweeney will be ready.  They picked up Alex Escobar as a diamond in the rough.

 

I could see the Sox trading Konerko and Bochard for Hudson and a mid-level prospect.  Hmmm thats a good idea, no?

 

Your deal would be the same as trading Mark Buerhle and Freddy Garcia for Gary Sheffield and Kenny Lofton.  Would you make that trade?????? 

 

I'm all for realistic trades, but this, my friend isn't even close.

Konerko, Byrnes, and Lee are all the same age, all born within 4 months of each other. You can throw the age argument out the door for either side.

 

Byrnes hit .283 23 70 .800 or something very similar to that last year in Oakland. Network Associates, where the A's play their home games, played as a hitter's park last year, but it was not as big of a hitter's park as USCF was(on br.com's park factor scale, 100 is a neutral park, with anything less then that being a pitcher's park, and anything more then that being a hitter's park...NAC was a 101 for batting and pitching, while USCF was a 107-106 for batting-pitching). His numbers would likely see an increase.

 

Why you are using career numbers is beyond me, because career numbers do not indicate how good a player necessarily is, especially when you are comparing the players previous numbers. I already noted how Byrnes numbers have seen an increase the past 3 years, so there is no set reason why they wouldn't continue to increase. Byrnes came up at an older age then both Konerko and Lee did, so that argument holds no precedence.

 

Konerko hit like .239 12 47 .700 on the road, while he hit like .300 29 70 1.045 at home...it's quite obvious he has benefitted a ton from hitting at USCF. His numbers are very much inflated.

 

Lee I know is very good...I've said so myself(in fact, I have said that Lee is the best player on the White Sox). That doesn't mean he can't be dealt in the right trade, and trading him as part of a package for Hudson would be the right trade as far as I'm concerned.

 

Byrnes comes in and helps replace what Lee did for us, while others come in and help too. He will, in all likelyhood, not put up .300 30 100 .890, but he could easily put up .290 25 75 .850, or something very similar to that, with more speed on the base paths.

 

I will say that Byrnes is worse defensively, as far as I can tell, then Lee is. I didn't see Byrnes play nearly enough to determine how he is defensively, so I'm going based on numbers, and the numbers say that Lee is better defensively(though I am NOT using errors and fielding percentage...I'm using range factor and zone rating, and I see that Lee's range factor is better(2.060 to 1.850) and his zone rating is better(.875 to .831). That's something we give up in getting a front of the rotation starter.

 

And leadership is bulls***. I don't buy those kinds of things for a second. If you lose a leader of the clubhouse, someone else will step up, some how, some way. It could be a guy like Frank Thomas who leads with his bat and has an outstanding year, or it could be even a guy like Mark Buehrle or Aaron Rowand who stand up vocally. Jose Valentin was probably the biggest leader in the clubhouse, and most people are happy knowing he will be gone next year.

 

Leading the clubhouse is part of the manager's job anyways, isn't it?

 

Your comparison of Byrnes and Valentin is laughable. Jose hit less then .220 last year, while Byrnes hit over .280. Valentin can no longer steal bases with any efficiency, while Byrnes stole 17 bases for a team that does not run(he had almost half of the A's stolen bases). Your argument is just wrong.

 

You can't trade just one of them...there will be better offers out there for Hudson then Carlos Lee and a couple prospects. And Beane is not stupid enough to trade Hudson for just Konerko and a couple prospects, unless one of the prospects KW gives up is named Sweeney, Anderson, or McCarthy, and if KW did that, he would most likely be castrated by someone on this board.

 

What do you mean why would they trade for an OFer? They trade for Byrnes because they gotta try to fill Lee's shoes somehow, someway. The OF right now is Lee-Rowand-Everett from left to right...if you trade Lee as part of any deal without getting a replacement, you are looking at Timo/Borch/Escobar/Gload-Rowand-Everett...there is an outside chance that that would be the worst OF in the AL.

 

And if you were referring to Jose Guillen, it's because he's a FA after the 2005 season and he's cheap and because it does clear a little bit of room for future needs. Trading Lee as part of a package for Hudson is huge. It's basically do you want Hudson for Lee, or do you want draft picks for Lee? I'll take Hudson, thanks much.

 

Konerko and Borchard for Hudson would be laughed at and thrown in the garbage by Beane. Borchard is a nothing prospect, and Konerko is a $9 mill player who can't hit on the road, while Hudson is one of the best pitchers in the league. Get real...yeah, it'd be good if we could rape Beane like that, but we can't.

 

And you're last hypothetical is laughable, and is not comparable to my trade. You are trading two starting pitchers who are under 30 for two OFers who are both over 35...that alone says no deal and is nothing like my deal. You also have to factor in that good starting pitching is much harder to find, and that I am actually getting a guy who can play the position of one of the guys I'm trading. If your trade were Buehrle and Garcia for Sheff and Vazquez, that's comparable...but that does nothing for either team.

 

I know it was in joke and was to mock my trade...but you did so very poorly.

[witesoxfan]

Just to say, I'm very torn on Byrnes. I know what he brings, but I just don't know how well he would play here and that scares me away.

I could see that. Some could look at the numbers and see that his numbers have been going up every year he's been in the majors. Some could also look at those same numbers and think maybe he has peaked and that we won't get much more then that, and that Beane would be doing what he's done so many times before.

[soxhawks]

jjkl

[southsider2k5]

jjkl

 

Ummm, any reason you are bumping a 3 month old thread?

[Kalapse]

You all make me sick, bumping a thread from f***ing November.