Whatever, we'll see.  I don't feel like arguing about the A's.

 

Not arguing at all. That is how i see it. Guess we won't talk about rotations in the american league, eh?

Edited February 11, 200521 yr by qwerty

Yes, very much so.  Isn't cruz going to be in the bullpen??  Also Blanton and Meyer haven't proven anything in the majors you can't just assume they're going to be good.

 

Buehrle - 16-10 3.89 ERA 1.26 WHIP K/9 of 6

Garcia - (with us) 9-4 4.46 ERA 1.24 WHIP K/9 of 9

Duque - 8-2 3.30 ERA 1.29 WHIP K/9 of 9...take into account that this is 84.6 IP over 15 starts, or UNDER 6 innings per start. That is horrible.

 

Zito - 11-11 4.48 ERA 1.39 WHIP K/9 of 6.9...IN HIS WORST YEAR EVER

Harden- 11-7 3.99 ERA 1.33 WHIP K/9 of 7.9...in his first full year starting, his second year in the bigs.

Plus you have Meyer, Haren, and Blanton, along with Cruz either being in the rotation or the pen.

 

That rotation will be among the best in the league, and if one of those 3 breaks out and becomes a very good starter, I take theirs over ours in a second.

Buehrle - 16-10 3.89 ERA 1.26 WHIP K/9 of 6

Garcia - (with us) 9-4 4.46 ERA 1.24 WHIP K/9 of 9

Duque - 8-2 3.30 ERA 1.29 WHIP K/9 of 9...take into account that this is 84.6 IP over 15 starts, or UNDER 6 innings per start.  That is horrible.

 

Zito - 11-11 4.48 ERA 1.39 WHIP K/9 of 6.9...IN HIS WORST YEAR EVER

Harden- 11-7 3.99 ERA 1.33 WHIP K/9 of 7.9...in his first full year starting, his second year in the bigs.

Plus you have Meyer, Haren, and Blanton, along with Cruz either being in the rotation or the pen.

 

That rotation will be among the best in the league, and if one of those 3 breaks out and becomes a very good starter, I take theirs over ours in a second.

I think Harden is a stud and will probably improve this year and has the potential to be the best of the bunch. Zito has to bounce back because he just wasn't very good last year. The thing is I just think a bunch of people just assume someone is going to break out for them and be an automatic stud, I just don't see it happening this year. Either way we'll agree to disagree and qwert I know you weren't arguing, I just disagree with you and I was saying I don't want to argue about it.

I think Harden is a stud and will probably improve this year and has the potential to be the best of the bunch.  Zito has to bounce back because he just wasn't very good last year.  The thing is I just think a bunch of people just assume someone is going to break out for them and be an automatic stud, I just don't see it happening this year.  Either way we'll agree to disagree and qwert I know you weren't arguing, I just disagree with you and I was saying I don't want to argue about it.

 

Tis fair enough.

 

Guess I made it in late to see that you didn't want to argue. Oh well

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Feb 10, 2005 -> 09:47 PM)

Might

 

Toronto, if I looked into it more, I probably would not.

 

But I might argue with Oakland. 

 

Is Buehrle-Garcia-Duque > Zito-Harden-Blanton/Meyer/Cruz?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Which rotation gives you a better chance of winning 5 games in a row?

 

Buehrle/Garcia/Hernandez/Contreras/Garland or Zito/Harden/Haren/Blayton?Cruz (actually Oakland doesn't have their rotation set.)

 

I'll take ours.

Which rotation gives you a better chance of winning 5 games in a row?

 

Buehrle/Garcia/Hernandez/Contreras/Garland or Zito/Harden/Haren/Blayton?Cruz (actually Oakland doesn't have their rotation set.)

 

I'll take ours.

 

I agree with that. I was never arguing that. I said when it comes to depth, ours is probably the 3rd best in the AL, behind Boston and New York.

 

In a short series, I might take Oakland...that would depend a lot on the development of the pitchers in that rotation. That is more wait and see then anything else.

Edited February 11, 200521 yr by witesoxfan

Road Stats:

Zito: 4.76 ERA, 1.57 WHIP

Harden: 4.96 ERA, 1.48 WHIP

I'm not even going to bother with the young guns.

 

Buehrle: 2.63 ERA, 1.07 WHIP

Garcia (w/Sox): 3.25 ERA, 1.04 WHIP

 

There's no way you can say the A's staff is better than ours. Sorry.

Tis fair enough.

 

Guess I made it in late to see that you didn't want to argue.  Oh well

Ha, don't worry about it Wite. I respect your guys opinion on Oakland, I just have a different opinion on it, so imo it's just kind of pointless to argue about it since neither of us are going to change our opinions.

Buehrle - 16-10 3.89 ERA 1.26 WHIP K/9 of 6

Garcia - (with us) 9-4 4.46 ERA 1.24 WHIP K/9 of 9

Duque - 8-2 3.30 ERA 1.29 WHIP K/9 of 9...take into account that this is 84.6 IP over 15 starts, or UNDER 6 innings per start.  That is horrible.

 

Zito - 11-11 4.48 ERA 1.39 WHIP K/9 of 6.9...IN HIS WORST YEAR EVER

Harden- 11-7 3.99 ERA 1.33 WHIP K/9 of 7.9...in his first full year starting, his second year in the bigs.

Plus you have Meyer, Haren, and Blanton, along with Cruz either being in the rotation or the pen.

 

That rotation will be among the best in the league, and if one of those 3 breaks out and becomes a very good starter, I take theirs over ours in a second.

 

 

One thing to look at in the stats is the trend of El Duques preformances. It takes about 18 months post-surgery for the pitcher to become comfortable with the shoulder after surgery. Many times, depending on the physician's protocol they pitch around 9-10 months but the duplication of mechanics and trust for the shoulder is not there. I don't remember when his surgery was but if someone can find out, go out 18 months or so and track his starts after that date. His age is also a factor because he is rumored to be almost 40. But find that timeframe and I bet that is the pitcher we will see. He tired at the end of last year and had to be shut down because of lack of endurance but that time in between should provide good insight as to how he performs.

I'd like to see one more consistently good year out of Garcia before I give him ace status. I know Buehrle is our ace, and I like having Freddy on the staff -- I just want to be sure that he's the guy we can rely on, and Buehrle can carry us.

 

Let's face it, folks. This isn't a revolutionary statement that I'm going to make, but we'll go as far as our starting staff takes us. Like I said, nothing revolutionary, but just wanted to put it out there, nonetheless.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Feb 10, 2005 -> 11:45 PM)

I'd like to see one more consistently good year out of Garcia before I give him ace status.  I know Buehrle is our ace, and I like having Freddy on the staff -- I just want to be sure that he's the guy we can rely on, and Buehrle can carry us.

 

Let's face it, folks.  This isn't a revolutionary statement that I'm going to make, but we'll go as far as our starting staff takes us.  Like I said, nothing revolutionary, but just wanted to put it out there, nonetheless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What do you want for him to be considered an ace?

i cant stand how some people dont realize how strong our rotation actually is, i mean oakland and toronto?

 

 

Let them keep thinking that. They'll never see us coming.

What do you want for him to be considered an ace?

 

His career era is near four and he has pitched in one of the very best pitcher parks in baseball. That is why i personally do not consider him an ace.

I'll say this much about Oakland's staff. It certainly has the potential to better than ours. In fact, it can easily be much better. But again, that's potential.

My list.

 

1.  Yankees

2.  Red Sox

3.  Twins

4.  White Sox (We have a lot of question marks fellas, sorry.)

5.  Angels

Any rotation with El Duque, Contreras and Garland is gonna have a lot of questionmarks in my mind. Garcia, and Buehrle are semi locks (unless health gets them) and then Garland will at worse put up the numbers he's been doing but with Contreras and El Duque you really have no idea. And Garland doesn't exactly put up great numbers, although I think he'll finally turn that corner this year (for the umpteenth year).

 

Right now I think the Sox rotation has potential to be very good, but I wouldn't rate it too highly. However, I really like the bullpen. And I just want to note that my knock on El Duque is 100% health related.

-Cliff Lee has Contreras type #'s with less experience.

-Milwood is moving to a more favorable hitters park than Philly.

-Elarton washes out of COL but has respectible #'s in 1/2 a season.

 

Sorry I don't but it.

 

CC vs Buerhle : adv MarkB

JW vs Garcia : adv Garcia

KM vs Hernandez : even

CL vs JC : adv Contreras

SE vs JG : adv Garland (All of the AL hasn't even seen Elarton yet!)

Just wanna say, Philly is a hitters park and the Jake is a pitchers park in comparison. No one is gonna tell me any different cause the ball jumps out of Philly's new ballpark.

I'll say this much about Oakland's staff.  It certainly has the potential to better than ours.  In fact, it can easily be much better.  But again, that's potential.

 

Don't forget they lost Mulder to the Cards, which immediately drops the overall quality of their rotation. I know Zito's damn good, and Harden's pretty solid. But, outside of those two, there's no starter there that scares me when thinking of our hitters. I wouldn't be surprised if we actually win the season series from Oakland this year.

QUOTE(qwerty @ Feb 11, 2005 -> 12:49 AM)

His career era is near four and he has pitched in one of the very best pitcher parks in baseball. That is why i personally do not consider him an ace.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How about his numbers with the Sox? (especially on the Road and during the day)

Don't forget they lost Mulder to the Cards, which immediately drops the overall quality of their rotation.  I know Zito's damn good, and Harden's pretty solid.  But, outside of those two, there's no starter there that scares me when thinking of our hitters.  I wouldn't be surprised if we actually win the season series from Oakland this year.

 

 

I'm not forgetting about Mulder, or Hudson for that matter. I'm looking at what they do have, and I think those guys are pretty good. They have the chance to be damn good.

All the pitching staffs have ?????, I know it's stating the obvious but it needed to be said.

 

However, with El Duque as our #3 and the ???? about his durability there's no way we should be considered a top 5 staff, I mean where would you rate us if Gar is our #3? That's what we'll have if El Duque can't go.

 

Btw, I can't believe the no love that Radke is getting here, if we had signed him away from the Twinks that would've been the coup of the whole off-season and I'd now be driving Sox ALC Champions train.

All the pitching staffs have ?????, I know it's stating the obvious but it needed to be said.

 

However, with El Duque as our #3 and the ???? about his durability there's no way we should be considered a top 5 staff, I mean where would you rate us if Gar is our #3? That's what we'll have if El Duque can't go.

 

Btw, I can't believe the no love that Radke is getting here, if we had signed him away from the Twinks that would've been the coup of the whole off-season and I'd now be driving Sox ALC Champions train.

 

Radke's solid. Not great, but solid. As far as El Duque is concerned, I really don't think he'll have any health problems. He's a full two years removed from the surgery and should be 100% healthy. I know I'm going out on a limb here, but just hand me the saw and if he goes on an extended DL stay, I'll cut the limb myself.

Edited February 11, 200521 yr by YASNY

If the Sox starters live up their potential, I'd say we'd have the 3rd best rotation in the AL, behind the Yankees and Red Sox. Of course with the Cell being a hitters stadium and all, and at least 2 of our starters being huge question marks, it's only natural to consider experts seeing our rotation in the bottom half of the AL.

Radke's solid.  Not great, but solid.  As far as El Duque is concerned, I really don't think he'll have any health problems.  He's a full two years removed from the surgery and should be 100% healthy.  I know I'm going out on a limb here, but just hand me the saw and if he goes on an extended DL stay, I'll cut the limb myself.

The thing is for me with Radke, last season was a contract year for him, he goes 11-8, 3.43 ERA. The previous 2 seasons, he was 9-5, 4.72 ERA and 14-10, 4.49, solid but not great like you said. Now that he's got a 2 year deal, does he continue with last season's form and post a sub 4 ERA and hardly walk anyone, or does he relax and go back to his 02-03 form?

Not until now did I realize our pitchers eat innings alive!!!!!!!!!!

QUOTE(JUGGERNAUT @ Feb 10, 2005 -> 05:02 PM)

My List

1.  Yankees (RJ goes for 30W)

2.  Red Sox (Schilling starting late)

3.  Twins (organizational depth)

4.  Oak  (organizational depth)

5.  White Sox (Buehrle, Garcia)

6.  Angels    (Colon)

7.  Blue Jays (Halladay)

8.  Cle (CC, JW)

 

The report is unreal.  I'm looking at these ERA's for CLE well over 5

& how he places them at 4 & then I look at the question marks on OAK with ERA's in the 4's & he places them at 7.  It's a joke.

 

Until proven otherwise Beane knows what he's doing & should produce another fine rotation.

Oak SP

2004 65-46,  0 starts by a pitcher w era > 5

2003 67-52,  7 starts by a pitcher w era > 5

2002 75-41, 18 starts by a pitcher w era > 5

2001 80-39, 18 starts by a pitcher w era > 5

2000 71-53, 52 starts by a pitcher w era > 5

 

It's not all the big 3 (Hudson, Mulder, Zito). 

Redman, Harden, Lidle, Lilly, Halama, Durscherer, Harang, Hiljus, Appier, Heredia have all pitched starts for the A's over the years & have all had ERA's under 5.

Beane has been masteful at finding guys to fill out the rotation year after year who produce winning records & era's

 

Beane has to be among the top GM's in getting the most out of rookie starters the past 5 yrs. Even better than Ryan of Min who has basically been doing it with a 1-2 starter punch the past 3 yrs.

 

Jugger, I'm not trying to downplay Beane, I just think people automatically assume every move he makes is great. I think he gets a little too much hype, IMHO. The potential of their staff is limitless, but it's just that potential. They have ??? in every spot. Will Zito return to his old form? If not, can Harden step into the #1? Can 3-5 perform for a whole year in the bigs? I would take the Sox staff over the A's, this year.