Terri Shaivo thread

[JUGGERNAUT]

Wow, you have got real problems if the person you are married to, you can't trust to decide whether to keep you on life support or not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Let's just say I didn't marry my high school sweetheart & therefore wasn't spared reality along the way. I'm not alone in this either. I've talked to other people on the issue of trust in their relationships. They take it only so far.

 

As for it being a problem, marriage statistics alone would strongly suggest you are nieve. Generally speaking it's more likely for you to experience divorce at least once in your lifetime than to remain married to the same person for life. Generally speaking no person is going to sacrifice more for your well-being in your lifetime than your parents.

You will realize this the day you become one.

 

In any case it's a very good poll question & probably deserves it's own thread.

It'd be interesting to see what the results were like at Fox, CNN, & MSNBC.

Edited March 18, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[YASNY]

Michael is not Scott.. not in any way, shape, or form.

 

I'm not saying he is. I can't see why this concept is so difficult to understand. I used a "worse case scenario" to empahsize a point.

[Steff]

If someone feels like that about their spouse, they should not be married to them, IMHO.  If you can't trust someone with the most important decesion of your life, what can you trust them with?

 

 

 

I agree. There is nothing in my life that I do not trust Jim with. My parents have their own lives and issues. While I'm sure they would want what's best.. I would still trust Jim over them. JMO.

[Steff]

I'm not saying he is.  I can't see why this concept is so difficult to understand.  I used a "worse case scenario" to empahsize a point.

 

 

Maybe because Scott was/is a murderer from the get go. Michael has been there for Terri since day one of this. He's gotten experimental treatment for her.. gone broke for her.. put off moving on with his life for her.. (he could have divorced her and tossed her and her care to her parents.. but didn't). I can't compare the two.. I have no idea if Scott given the opportunity would have done the same.. but I know Michael would not have done what Scott did since he didn't.

[southsider2k5]

Hey, I trusted her.  Found out that it was mistake. Live and learn

 

That's what I am saying actually. If you don't trust them, you shouldn't be with them. More power to you.

[YASNY]

Maybe because Scott was/is a murderer from the get go. Michael has been there for Terri since day one of this. He's gotten experimental treatment for her.. gone broke for her.. put off moving on with his life for her.. (he could have divorced her and tossed her and her care to her parents.. but didn't). I can't compare the two.. I have no idea if Scott given the opportunity would have done the same.. but I know Michael would not have done what Scott did since he didn't.

 

 

It's the concept, Steff. I know I'd trust my parents more than any human beings on the face of the earth. Period.

[Steff]

It's the concept, Steff.  I know I'd trust my parents more than any human beings on the face of the earth.  Period.

 

 

 

Alright Yas.......

 

I don't agree. Period.

[YASNY]

Alright Yas.......

 

I don't agree. Period. 

 

I can accept that.

[southsider2k5]

Let's just say I didn't marry my high school sweetheart & therefore wasn't spared reality along the way.  I'm not alone in this either.  I've talked to other people on the issue of trust in their relationships.  They take it only so far.

 

As for it being a problem, marriage statistics alone would strongly suggest you are nieve.  Generally speaking it's more likely for you to experience divorce at least once in your lifetime than to remain married to the same person for life.  Generally speaking no person is going to sacrifice more for your well-being in your lifetime than your parents.

You will realize this the day you become one.

 

In any case it's a very good poll question & probably deserves it's own thread. 

It'd be interesting to see what the results were like at Fox, CNN, & MSNBC.

 

Call me nieve if you like, but if you don't trust the person you are with, you should leave them. If you don't, you get what you get.

 

But it is also nieve in this day and age to thing that parents are immune from the greed you think that spouses are capable of. For every parent trying to get his kid to play for the love of the game, there is another trying to force their kid in hoping that they can be their lottery ticket out of mediocrity. People are human, and just because they can reproduce, doesn't mean they instantly change. Bad people are bad people no matter if they have kids are not.

[YASNY]

I hate to leave good company, but I've got yo get outta here till tonight. Steff, I am so happy you feel the way you do about Jim. That's worth more than gold. I guess I've been jaded. However, I don't believe it's a permanent condition.

[Steff]

I hate to leave good company, but I've got yo get outta here till tonight.  Steff, I am so happy you feel the way you do about Jim.  That's worth more than gold. I guess I've been jaded.  However, I don't believe it's a permanent condition.

 

 

I believe there is someone perfect for everyone out there... you'll find it again. I did.

[JUGGERNAUT]

For every parent trying to get his kid to play for the love of the game, there is another trying to force their kid in hoping that they can be their lottery ticket out of mediocrity. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

C'mon SS. You can't possibly beleive that. There are no statistics or polls or anything I'm aware of to support that. Let's just say there are certainly parents out there who love their kids less than they should. And there are certainly parents out there who use their kids as tools to get what they want (dreams fullfilled, money, etc.). But I think by & large that number is small. Many more parents get their kids to play just so the kid is active. They let the kid try as many sports as they want in hopes that one will stick.

 

It's best to continue this in the other thread. It is related to Schiavo but it shouldn't dominate the thread.

[maggliopipe]

This about one person who is brain IMPAIRED being denied an opportunity for a better life in a cyborg future.  Big difference.  She's not brain dead.  Brain dead people suffer deterioration of the organs.  That's not Terri. 

 

 

first off, if you're defining "brain dead" as a person whose brain can no longer control their peripheral organs, is anyone ever brain dead? aren't they just dead?

 

higher brain processing centers are more susceptible to hypoxic conditions than the brainstem. essentially all she's got left is brainstem which is just enough to let her breath and keep her heart beating. i question how you can be so sure that just her sensory perception has been disrupted. there's this little thing called consciousness which she will never, ever experience again. even in this future cyborg world of yours, any experience from her 25 years are lost forever. they can't be recreated. the neural network that information was contained within died 15 years ago. That s***'s not in her genome. we're just now getting to the point where we have a rudimentary understanding of neural control over very basic motor movements. the chances of us ever truly understanding human "consciousness" is slim-to-none. and that's fine. that's what makes humans so unique: we can't be recreated.

[southsider2k5]

C'mon SS.  You can't possibly beleive that.  There are no statistics or polls or anything I'm aware of to support that.  Let's just say there are certainly parents out there who love their kids less than they should.  And there are certainly parents out there who use their kids as tools to get what they want (dreams fullfilled, money, etc.).  But I think by & large that number is small.  Many more parents get their kids to play just so the kid is active.  They let the kid try as many sports as they want in hopes that one will stick.

 

It's best to continue this in the other thread.  It is related to Schiavo but it shouldn't dominate the thread.

 

Why shouldn't I believe it. People beat their kids, neglect their kids, steal from their kids, sexually abuse their kids etc., just like they beat their spouses, cheat on their spouses, steal from their spouses etc. You could probably go through the news everyday and find a tear jerker story about a parent who chained their kid to a furnace or the like.

 

Bad people are bad people regardless of whether their reproductive organs work or not. It does matter whether they are married or have kids, they are going to take advantage of whomever they can.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Why shouldn't I believe it.  People beat their kids, neglect their kids, steal from their kids, sexually abuse their kids etc., just like they beat their spouses, cheat on their spouses, steal from their spouses etc.  You could probably go through the news everyday and find a tear jerker story about a parent who chained their kid to a furnace or the like. 

 

Bad people are bad people regardless of whether their reproductive organs work or not.  It does matter whether they are married or have kids, they are going to take advantage of whomever they can.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You can look at any group of domestic violence or DCFS statistics in the nation & you will find that parental abuse (beating, neglect, stealing, sexual, etc.) is far less prevalent than spousal abuse. No one is saying abuse doesn't exist for either. But in comparison to the population as a whole spousal abuse is far more prevalent.

 

If you were to expand this to guardians (someone raising kids) to lovers(spouses, boyfriends, girlfriends) the gap becomes even greater.

Edited March 18, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[southsider2k5]

Shiavo's feeding tube has been removed.

 

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050318/D88TJVC81.html

[southsider2k5]

Those types of people are small in numbers.  You can look at the statistics of any DCFS in the nation to clearly see that.

 

And so are the # of people who are not capable passing on the wishes of their spouse.

[Steff]

This is a link to a site that has a normal brain scan...

 

 

http://www.cs.utah.edu/~flannery/utah.html

 

 

 

This is a link to a site with a brain scan of Terri Schiavo, showing the liquification of her cerebral cortex:

 

http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/CT%20scan.png

 

 

Notice the big empty space in the middle of her brain... nothing there.. and it will never "grow back"

[JUGGERNAUT]

And so are the # of people who are not capable passing on the wishes of their spouse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

When those wishes are clearly defined by a living will I would agree. When those wishes are determined by a handful of politically motivated judges I disagree.

 

This is clearly an example were what is fair & right is not represented by the American justice system. A grand jury would have been more preferrable.

[Rex Kickass]

It's not like Schiavo went judgeshopping. This decision was backed up by nearly every court it went up against. Unless there's some vast death cult conspiracy in the Florida judiciary, I'd say that there's little to no political motivation here. However, there may just be some in elected officials who wraps themselves up in the sickbed of a terminally vegetative person. (i.e. Jeb Bush, Senate Health Committee)

[CrimsonWeltall]

I voted for 'kill', but not for the reason next to it. I haven't looked into it, but considering that most of her brain has been liquified, I highly doubt it has the capability to interpret pain. The starve option is unnecessarily drawn out.

[Soxy]

Why shouldn't I believe it.  People beat their kids, neglect their kids, steal from their kids, sexually abuse their kids etc., just like they beat their spouses, cheat on their spouses, steal from their spouses etc.  You could probably go through the news everyday and find a tear jerker story about a parent who chained their kid to a furnace or the like. 

 

Bad people are bad people regardless of whether their reproductive organs work or not.  It does matter whether they are married or have kids, they are going to take advantage of whomever they can.

Amen.

[kapkomet]

C'mon SS.  You can't possibly beleive that.  There are no statistics or polls or anything I'm aware of to support that.  Let's just say there are certainly parents out there who love their kids less than they should.  And there are certainly parents out there who use their kids as tools to get what they want (dreams fullfilled, money, etc.).  But I think by & large that number is small.  Many more parents get their kids to play just so the kid is active.  They let the kid try as many sports as they want in hopes that one will stick.

 

It's best to continue this in the other thread.  It is related to Schiavo but it shouldn't dominate the thread.

 

Not to take this completely away from Schaivo but does everything in the world have to boil down to logic and statistics?

 

Just curious.

[kapkomet]

Dude offers $1 million to keep Schaivo alive

 

Wow. Does this ever end?

[JUGGERNAUT]

Not to take this completely away from Schaivo but does everything in the world have to boil down to logic and statistics?

 

Just curious.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

When it comes to laws & public policy, yes. The lives of the many always come before the lives of the few or the one.

 

I do have one more thing to add to this debate. We at home were talking about this today & it had dawned on me that in my circle of life we had assumed a lot on the part of her parents. Having never read anything to support those assumptions we've now come to the conclusion that they might not fully understand the situation. They may in fact be hoping & wishing on a miracle from God.

 

There are cases in medical science that defy that which we know to be logical within the confines of our human knowledgebase. But Terri's brain damaged condition would not fall in that realm.

 

The best & only hope for Terri lies 20 yrs into the future. Her parents need to know this because it is more than likely they could depart this world before Terri does. That future lies in artificial inteligence, nano-technology, & cyborg technology. It's not going to be like a switch that connects the old Terri to the new. It's going to be more like a re-birth. Any sense of memory she might have will be that of what is programmed in based on extensive interviews of family and friend. I'm sure by that time science will have mapped out that which controls our sense of taste, smell, sight, hearing, & touch. The first of course will be sight & hearing. Ten years from now even the blind & deaf will be given a chance to see & hear (for the right price).

 

But will this person really be Terri or simply a new creation born from the memories of those who loved her? Given that it will take at least 20 yrs to realize cyborg Terri

would it not make more sense to simply clone her? The cloned Terri would enjoy a better & fuller life 20 yrs from now.

 

There are those in the scientific community who believe human DNA contains information pertaining to memories passed down from one generation to the next.

The point at which you concieve life is the point at which the memories of a man & woman converge & are passed down to the child. Whether this arises in a lab or through conception. There is no substantial data to support that belief but there is enough to where research is being done in the field. But if that is true then it is possible that a clone made from Terri today could possess all of her memories up until the time she became brain damaged & her memory processes stopped.

 

Now of course this opens a huge can of worms for the religiously devout who are laboring tirelessly to save Terri. If I were to tell them this I doubt very much they would be open to the idea of cloning Terri. If I were to tell them this I doubt very much they would understand that cyborg Terri will be a result of collective inteligence & most likely would never experience an independant thought again.

 

Cloning is against the law, & cyborg Terri at best will be a shell of a human being capable of all 5 senses, memory processing, etc. but it will all be artificial. If she has any personality at all it will be based on what her family tells us about her & sophisticated algorithms designed to create a sense of spontaneity in her actions. It's unlikely that science will unlock our emotional framework in that time. That which makes us angry, laugh, cry, fear, etc. Cyborg Terri will probably never feel that again. She will only mimic it.

 

It's our opinion then that if this was made clear to her parents they to would give up the fight. Michael's intentions are not going to change Terri's state. A miracle from God is all that can do that in the short term. We can not govern society waiting on miracles from God. With all due respect to Terri's parents it's time to let her go.

I would prefer that they administer a lethal injection based on what we know.

There is enough left of her brain to where her respiratory, circulatory, & digestive systems are functioning on their own. It is possible she could experience a sense of pain during starvation. That's the last thing she deserves.