Hey Ozzie here are a couple of rules to live by in managing your bullpen. It's just basic logic but apparently that eludes you :

 

If the pitcher is getting hitters out - leave him in.

 

Conversely, if he is getting hammered (i.e. 2 home runs ) - take him out.

 

Do you think you can follow that, Einstein ?

And when things get complicated in real life, just simplify things to the point where it is useless...

I'm inclined to agree. Dusty shouldn't have been taken out in the first place and Shingo should have been taken out after the second homer.

I'm inclined to agree. Dusty shouldn't have been taken out in the first place and Shingo should have been taken out after the second homer.

i agree 100% i love ozzie but i dont really like the fact that he wants to give his players confidence. we would have won the game if hermy had stayed in the game or if he had pulled shingo after the 2nd hr. jeez, even after shingo gave up the 3 homers he still let him face two more batters. but then look at what eric wedge did too, he left wickman in. joe torre did too with mariano until he just had to pull him out.

Question: What manager doesn't go to his closer in the 9th with a 3 run lead or less? A 3 run lead IS a save situation.

 

It is Shingo's fault, not Ozzie's.

Edited April 8, 200521 yr by Jabroni

The thing is Einstein..Shingo needs more work so he can locate his pitches better..and How is he suppose to do that? It one lose, not a big deal.. lets move on I am sure for the next week or two Shingo going to look like Koch until you get him work.

It's the Indians' fault for hitting those belt-high fastballs into the seats!!!!!

 

We really need to move on.

I can't stand the fact that he used Cotts, Politte and Marte in ONE INNING??!! These are Major League pitchers. If they cannot pitch an entire inning then maybe they shouldn't be in the majors. If they are right handed pitchers and can't get out left handed batters then they shouldn't be in the majors. If they are left handed and can't get out right handed batters they shouldn't be in the majors. Not to mention making millions of dollars.

Ozzie needs to keep the old saying "Keep it simple, keep it stupid" in mind as the season rolls along. The more he tries to get cute the more he is going to get nailed...

I disagree. Most reasonably good relief pitchers can pitch well for their first 15-20 pitches. But what separates the Nathan's from the rest is their effectiveness beyond that. Nathan is nearly as effective in his 16-30 pitches. Vizcaino is bad, Cotts is bad, Shingo is less than good. Marte is the best we have for someone expected to throw 30 pitches in 1 night. Hermanson is 2nd best. Politte is 3rd.

 

As for leaving Herm vs bringing in Shingo the numbers say bring in Shingo.

Herm is still effective in his higher pitch counts but Shingo is dominant in his first 15.

 

Even though he messed up the 7th, Ozzie still could have won this game by bringing in Vizc to face Crisp. On avg Vizc's first 15 pitches are much more effective than Shingo's 16-30.

I disagree.  Most reasonably good relief pitchers can pitch well for their first 15-20 pitches.  But what separates the Nathan's from the rest is their effectiveness beyond that.  Nathan is nearly as effective in his 16-30 pitches.  Vizcaino is bad, Cotts is bad, Shingo is less than good.  Marte is the best we have for someone expected to throw 30 pitches in 1 night.  Hermanson is 2nd best.  Politte is 3rd.

 

As for leaving Herm vs bringing in Shingo the numbers say bring in Shingo.

Herm is still effective in his higher pitch counts but Shingo is dominant in his first 15.

 

Even though he messed up the 7th, Ozzie still could have won this game by bringing in Vizc to face Crisp.  On avg Vizc's first 15 pitches are much more effective than Shingo's 16-30.

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Of course Vizcaino is going to be bad when he has to throw 60 pitches.

Oz quotes:

"I'm sick to my stomach right now, but there's nothing you can do about it. All of a sudden, I learned another one: It's not over until it's over. Every day you learn something. Hopefully we move on and tomorrow is another day.''

 

"I abused that kid," Guillen said of Vizcaino, who has a 17.18 ERA as evidence. "That's all my fault to leave that kid in there that long."

 

Chris Widger (warming up in BP) said he would have relied on a straight fastball & straight slow ball

 

DYK: Both blown saves in Takatsu's Sox career have come against CLE.

 

I think Ozzie will manage the pen better going forward. It sounds like

the game was an eye-opener for him. As far as his use of Shingo Oz seems to have a good handle on him now. He stated that Shingo did not look good from the get go leaving to many balls up high in the K-zone.

 

I think he realizes now that he can never expect to go very long with Shingo. If he struggles early he's got to use someone else to finish it.

 

I would say the odds are pretty good he's not going to burn through the pen like that in the near future.

And when things get complicated in real life, just simplify things to the point where it is useless...

My point is that managers sometimes paint themselves into a corner by going by the modern "book". I say the hell with the book. My first inclination is to do what gives the team the best chance to win whether or not it's by the book kosher. Yes I know, if Shingo goes one, two, three we aren't having this cyber conversation.

My point is that managers sometimes paint themselves into a corner by going by the modern "book". I say the hell with the book. My first inclination is to do what gives the team the best chance to win whether or not it's by the book kosher. Yes I know, if Shingo goes one, two, three we aren't having this cyber conversation.

 

And that is a good explanation of your thinking process. The original thought was so simpified it was pointless in real life.

Question: What manager doesn't go to his closer in the 9th with a 3 run lead or less?  A 3 run lead IS a save situation.

 

It is Shingo's fault, not Ozzie's.

 

It isn't Ozzie's fault that Shungo blew a 3 run lead....BUT it is Ozzie's fault that he burned through 3 relievers in one freaking inning

 

And why again is Cotts up here instead of Adkins? The man love for Cotts is amazing....the guy blows.....send his ass to the minors where he learns to pitch

It isn't Ozzie's fault that Shungo blew a 3 run lead....BUT it is Ozzie's fault that he burned through 3 relievers in one freaking inning

 

And why again is Cotts up here instead of Adkins? The man love for Cotts is amazing....the guy blows.....send his ass to the minors where he learns to pitch

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Cotts is on the roster because he's a lefty and Ozzie loves him for his mound presence and attitude or something.

Edited April 8, 200521 yr by Jabroni

Cotts is on the roster because he's a lefty and Ozzie loves him for his mound presence and attitude or something.

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You asked why Cotts? Because he's pretty close to dominating in his first 15 pitches:

555 OPS. Adkins is no where close to that. He's not good for leading off an inning but he is good for finishing one.

It's the Indians' fault for hitting those belt-high fastballs into the seats!!!!!

 

We really need to move on.

 

I haven't been on the past couple days, but damn does this post essentially hit it on the head.

 

Lighten the hell up. If you really want to think about it, we should still be 2-1...we really did sort of win a game we had no buisness winning on Wednesday.

 

OH NOS!1!!!!111!!!! WE LOSTED 1 GAME!

 

If you are going to go putting blame around on everybody, why not put some on the offense too for not scoring more runs? Put some blame on Politte too because from what I remember, he let a run cross the plate when a GIDP would have ended the inning.

 

Putting blame on others is ridiculous. So Shingo f'ed up once. We lost 1 game. It is still April, and there are still 6 months in the season. I know that is just a variation of the 'it's still early' excuse, but it is true. There is no need to even look at standings until like June, and even then it is really early.

I haven't been on the past couple days, but damn does this post essentially hit it on the head.

 

Lighten the hell up.  If you really want to think about it, we should still be 2-1...we really did sort of win a game we had no buisness winning on Wednesday.

 

OH NOS!1!!!!111!!!!  WE LOSTED 1 GAME!

 

If you are going to go putting blame around on everybody, why not put some on the offense too for not scoring more runs?  Put some blame on Politte too because from what I remember, he let a run cross the plate when a GIDP would have ended the inning. 

 

Putting blame on others is ridiculous.  So Shingo f'ed up once.  We lost 1 game.  It is still April, and there are still 6 months in the season.  I know that is just a variation of the 'it's still early' excuse, but it is true.  There is no need to even look at standings until like June, and even then it is really early.

 

Good point, everyone is pointing fingers at Shingo, Vizcaino, and or Ozzie, but don't forget the offense went scoreless for 7 straight innings.

Good point, everyone is pointing fingers at Shingo, Vizcaino, and or Ozzie, but don't forget the offense went scoreless for 7 straight innings.

 

Trust me, some of us have been blaming the small-ball offense for a while too

 

And do not give me this it is too early bull crap. That is a freaking loser attitude. Every game counts and given how tight this division typically is, this was a huge 2 game swing.

I can't stand the fact that he used Cotts, Politte and Marte in ONE INNING??!! These are Major League pitchers. If they cannot pitch an entire inning then maybe they shouldn't be in the majors. If they are right handed pitchers and can't get out left handed batters then they shouldn't be in the majors. If they are left handed and can't get out right handed batters they shouldn't be in the majors. Not to mention making millions of dollars.

 

:headshake

:headshake

 

My sentiments, exactly.

well here are my 2 cents.

 

While the offense went dead after a fast start they scored 5 runs and thats all it should need to win a game in my opinion.

 

As for the managing of the bullpen.... Well like everyone else said 3 RP's in one inning is not a good thing but here is where the rest of you are wrong. Hermason pitched great the 8th inning but with a 3 run lead going into the 9th you always go to your closer. And than that was fine when Shingo came in back after the 2nd solo HR Vizcaino should of came in to finish it off... yes he was our last RP but as shown blowing the save and relying on him isnt a better thing. After the 2nd HR they already had 2 outs so Vizcaino should of easily got the last out.

well here are my 2 cents.

 

While the offense went dead after a fast start they scored 5 runs and thats all it should need to win a game in my opinion.

 

As for the managing of the bullpen.... Well like everyone else said 3 RP's in one inning is not a good thing but here is where the rest of you are wrong.  Hermason pitched great the 8th inning but with a 3 run lead going into the 9th you always go to your closer.  And than that was fine when Shingo came in back after the 2nd solo HR Vizcaino should of came in to finish it off... yes he was our last RP but as shown blowing the save and relying on him isnt a better thing.  After the 2nd HR they already had 2 outs so Vizcaino should of easily got the last out.

 

That, I agree with. If Shingo was throwing those meatballs up there like everyone said, then Ozzie should have jerked him after that second dinger. No doubt.

That, I agree with.  If Shingo was throwing those meatballs up there like everyone said, then Ozzie should have jerked him after that second dinger.  No doubt.

 

Or why didn't he at least go out there after the 2nd HR to say something? And this isn't just an Ozzie thing, you see managers sitting on their ass all the time while some guy is out there serving up meatballs. You have 2 trips why not use them. Instead, the guy gets taken long on the next pitch and the downward spiral continues.

 

Btw, JM used to be the worse at this.