Sox, Cubs respond to Sun-Times column

[YASNY]

If there is 1 person in baseball who could hang a sign saying "The buck stops here", it's Bud Selig.

 

Don Fehr's job is not to protect the integrity of the game.  Bud Selig's job is.  That is the key difference.  Don Fehr's job is to represent his players and make things as good as possible for them.  Bud Selig's job is to protect baseball.

 

Fehr takes his share of the blame because he was wrong, but he's certainly no where near the man at the top of the blame pyramid in my book.

 

Maybe Bud was protecting the existance of the game.

[Balta1701]

Maybe Bud was protecting the existance of the game.

That doesn't mean he couldn't have done things outside of the negotiations or after the strike in '94, or at least before 2001-2002.

[Soxbadger]

Selig did what he could.

 

The true facts are that both the MLBPA and some owners were creating a very strong bloc to prevent drug testing.

 

Its not like every owner didnt want steriods, there is some evidence from Canseco that many owners he worked for knew that their players were doing steriods and did not care.

 

Therefore prior to about a year ago you had:

 

Owners and MLBPA versus Bud Selig

 

Doesnt seem like good odds

[Balta1701]

Selig did what he could.

 

The true facts are that both the MLBPA and some owners were creating a very strong bloc to prevent drug testing.

 

Its not like every owner didnt want steriods, there is some evidence from Canseco that many owners he worked for knew that their players were doing steriods and did not care.

 

Therefore prior to about a year ago you had:

 

Owners and MLBPA versus Bud Selig

 

Doesnt seem like good odds

But...Bud Selig had many things he could have done to increase those odds. When did Bud Selig launch any investigations into steroid use in the game in the mid 90's, which could have gotten the public or Congress on his side? When did Bud Selig sit down and give an hour long interview with SI about steroids? Prior to the 2002 negotiations, Bud Selig's efforts on steroids, as far as I'm concerned, basically involved reforwarding a memo to the owners that Fay Vincent had sent around in '91.

[Soxbadger]

You mean, why did Bud Selig without any facts or aid from the players or owners launch a steriod campaign?

 

Because if he was wrong he would of been ran out of the game and shamed?

 

He had nothing to go with. He had no proof, he had no smoking gun, and even more importantly what was he going to start going after?

 

Was he going to launch an investigation on the designer drugs that were coming into baseball that people had no ways of testing for back then? GHB was untestable, as were most other growth hormones because as always the steriods are about 10-15 years ahead of the testing.

 

The reality is, even now that we are passed the "steriod age" we are really only past the age of the drugs that they can test for. There very well may be a drug that is just as good as steriods for strength but there is no test out there. Then in 20 years when people figure it out, are they going to say: "Why didnt more people do something about X" Well its because no one could then.

 

People can only do so much without the aid of 20/20 hindsight. Its very easy to look back and question when you have the facts that the people at the time did not have.

[AbeFroman]

I wish that McPhail and Reindorf would have gone after marriotti on a different issue rather than this one. There are plenty of things to fire off at that idiot at rather than this.

[Balta1701]

You mean, why did Bud Selig without any facts or aid from the players or owners launch a steriod campaign?

 

Because if he was wrong he would of been ran out of the game and shamed?

 

He had nothing to go with. He had no proof, he had no smoking gun, and even more importantly what was he going to start going after?

 

Was he going to launch an investigation on the designer drugs that were coming into baseball that people had no ways of testing for back then? GHB was untestable, as were most other growth hormones because as always the steriods are about 10-15 years ahead of the testing.

 

The reality is, even now that we are passed the "steriod age" we are really only past the age of the drugs that they can test for. There very well may be a drug that is just as good as steriods for strength but there is no test out there. Then in 20 years when people figure it out, are they going to say: "Why didnt more people do something about X" Well its because no one could then.

 

People can only do so much without the aid of 20/20 hindsight. Its very easy to look back and question when you have the facts that the people at the time did not have.

Ok, so if he had no smoking gun, what about Mark McGwire's andro bottle in his locker in 1998? What about Ken Caminiti and Jose Canseco's steroid admissions in the early 00's? What about the power surge, which was questionned at the time by many people (Remember the years that everyone was saying how the balls were being wound tighter?)

 

You don't convict everyone in baseball without a smoking gun, but that doesn't mean you don't start looking into things.

 

And in terms of designer steroids...who cares? First of all, the fact is that many players were on things like Winstrol, which could be easily tested for (Johnson in 88 was caught using that one, as was Palmeiro). Secondly, there are always people making these things and supplying them. You can track down the suppliers and realize you have a problem even if you don't have tests.

 

Bud Selig's office was concerned enough about Steroids that they re-forwarded Fay Vincent's memo to the owners in like 97, but they weren't concerned enough about them to pay attention beyond that. You say it's easy to look back and say he should have done more...yes it is. But it's also pretty hard to say that by sitting around and doing nothing, his office was protecting the game.

 

Oh, and I think you have your drugs confused. GHB is a powerful depressant. Supposedly it's a pretty common Rave drug. Taking a high dose of that will put you in a coma.

[Soxbadger]

I meant HGH.

 

GHB is a date rape drug, I think Janikowski from FSU had some one time.

Edited April 6, 2006 by Soxbadger

[nitetrain8601]

I wish that McPhail and Reindorf would have gone after marriotti on a different issue rather than this one.  There are plenty of things to fire off at that idiot at rather than this.

 

I don't think there's not really much they could go after in terms of subject. If they would've badtalked Mariotti in the press for always talking s*** about both teams, it would've made them look like babies and unprofessional. I think this is a good argument.

[Texsox]

Because the '94 strike was the worst thing to happen to baseball since 1919.  There was nothing but bitter contentiousness between the owners and the union and the fans were majorly pissed.  They had to get back to playing baseball, not fighting anymore battles.

 

 

Maybe Bud was protecting the existance of the game.

 

As always in this forum, YAS and I are thinking about the same thing, and I would add, baseball may have been better off without the testing. Like it or not, the Mac / Sosa homerun derby, bodies juiced, caused people to loook at baseball again. It may be true that by ignoring steroids, Bud actually helped the sport.

 

BTW, if there was a n all platoon doped league with 110 mph fastballs and 500 foot homeruns and a clean league, I'm not certain which league would have the bigger fan base in a generation.

(YAS, how can you be so smart here, and so not smart in filibuster)

[WCSox]

Maybe Bud was protecting the existance of the game.

 

The existence of the game was already being threatened by the owners' demands for a salary cap/revenue sharing and the refusal of the MLBPA to give in. I don't see how Selig and the owners couldn't have thrown in steroid testing as a compromise to give up on the revenue reforms that they were trying to push. IIRC, the luxury tax wasn't implemented until just recently in the last CBA.

Edited April 6, 2006 by WCSox

[Soxpranos]

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/cws/downlo...006/soxcubs.pdf

 

pretty good stuff.

[Kyyle23]

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=48464

[Soxpranos]

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=48464

 

My bad

[chitownsportsfan]

Sometimes I like to read the forum before posting news that happened yesterday.

[mr_genius]

i'm actually on Moronatti's side on this one

 

[GoRowand33]

I feel like there were so many factors in the steroids issue that is impossible to blame one person alone

 

were some people who made mistakes in higher positions than others, sure they were, but that doesn't mean that they should take the whole burden

 

 

donald fehr was at fault for avoiding testing, while bud selig was at fault for not setting up testing

 

those two mistakes kind of cycle in and out, with more blame on fehr than selig so I think it evens out anyways

 

with my reasoning, I don't agree with what either Mariotti or The owners said in the letter because neither take the whole situation in perspective, instead focusing on a more bias side

 

true good reporting gives the full story, so in that case mariotti was stupid

[YASNY]

Ok, so if he had no smoking gun, what about Mark McGwire's andro bottle in his locker in 1998?  What about Ken Caminiti and Jose Canseco's steroid admissions in the early 00's?  What about the power surge, which was questionned at the time by many people (Remember the years that everyone was saying how the balls were being wound tighter?)

 

You don't convict everyone in baseball without a smoking gun, but that doesn't mean you don't start looking into things.

 

 

What about McGwire's andro bottle? In '98 that was a legal otc supplement. It's now illegal and Selig had something to do with that if you care to read the 3rd paragraph of JR's and AM's letter to the CST.

 

After the Caminiti-Canseco thing in the early 00's, he implemented steroid testing in the minors in '01 and bargained in the original major league steroid testing in '02. That qualifies as early 00's to me.

Edited April 7, 2006 by YASNY

[Kyyle23]

Surprisingly, not even a mention of the letter from AM and JR in Mariotti's column.

 

http://www.suntimes.com/output/mariotti/cst-spt-jay07.html