The Ozzie Guillen Battleground Thread

[whitesoxfan101]

Ozzie calls on 4 relievers over 3 1/3 innings and 3 of them give up runs. The Twins march out 5 relievers over 7 innings and give up 1 run. Their guys outhit and outperformed our guys in the clutch. But of course it's all on Ozzie.

 

Do you watch the games? Or are you one of those guys that just loves Ozzie since he sat on his ass and watched the pitchers win it all last year, while his Ozzieball crap had our offense in the bottom half of the AL.

[Wealz]

You absolutely could have brought in Thornton or MacDougal in that situation.

 

 

You don't burn Thornton in the 6th when you know Mauer and Moreneau are going to have another AB. The worst Moreneau could have done in that situation was tie the game. Tie game in the 6th - big deal.

[fathom]

You don't burn Thornton in the 6th when you know Mauer and Moreneau are going to have another AB. The worst Moreneau could have done in that situation was tie the game. Tie game in the 6th - big deal.

 

Sorry, but against a team with an amazing bullpen like the Twins, you go for the freaking win in that situation. Even Ozzie himself said he's nervous about them having Nathan at the end of the game. You win the game tonight, and then you worry about the bullpen tomorrow. It's not like I'm saying we should have used Jenks for 3 innings, etc.

[whitesoxfan101]

You don't burn Thornton in the 6th when you know Mauer and Moreneau are going to have another AB. The worst Moreneau could have done in that situation was tie the game. Tie game in the 6th - big deal.

 

Then where was McCarthy or MacDougal to face Hunter? Bringing in Riske is inexcuseable, as is bringing in Cotts. Cotts can't get ANYBODY out right now.

[Wealz]

For those 10 outs, there's no doubt in my mind we had a better chance to win if we would have just used our big 3. I would have sacrificed my bullpen for tomorrow in order to give ourselves the best chance to win tonight. We still have this solid pitcher named McCarthy in the bullpen....but Ozzie doesn't like him.

 

Why are Riske and Cotts on the roster then? Riske has been solid, btw, and you're acting like he's Cliff Pollitte.

[fathom]

Why are Riske and Cotts on the roster then? Riske has been solid, btw, and you're acting like he's Cliff Pollitte.

 

Riske is a horrible pitcher in close situations. Cotts shouldn't be in unless it's mop-up duty right now.

[ottawa_sox]

Do you watch the games? Or are you one of those guys that just loves Ozzie since he sat on his ass and watched the pitchers win it all last year, while his Ozzieball crap had our offense in the bottom half of the AL.

 

I don't get to watch as many as I'd like, but I listen to all of them. I don't have to watch them to understand that hindsight Ozzie bashing will occur. He had Vazquez on a short leash and the players that he brought in should have got the job done. That's what they get paid for. He didn't overtax anybody and they should be ready for near future games. Asking Cotts and Riske to retire a batter is not asking as much as Guerrier to go 3 innings and Crain 2. The Twins beat the Sox. Their players performed better in the clutch. for just once I would like to hear the players take the heat for their on field performances. Last year Ozzie kept pulling a rabbit out of the hat. I guess he was completely lucky and his true idiocy has finally got the better of him this year. Give me a break. 2 teams are trying to win these games. Their players pulled it out.

[Friend of Nordhagen]

Cotts should be replaced on the roster if he can't be used in the 6th to get a lefty out. That's a GM problem. Would you have preffered MacDougal & Jenks pitch the last 3.1 innings? That's a great way to burn out your pen before September.

 

I actually found myself thinking about Boone. Ah, Boone.

[fathom]

I don't get to watch as many as I'd like, but I listen to all of them. I don't have to watch them to understand that hindsight Ozzie bashing will occur. He had Vazquez on a short leash and the players that he brought in should have got the job done. That's what they get paid for. He didn't overtax anybody and they should be ready for near future games. Asking Cotts and Riske to retire a batter is not asking as much as Guerrier to go 3 innings and Crain 2. The Twins beat the Sox. Their players performed better in the clutch. for just once I would like to hear the players take the heat for their on field performances. Last year Ozzie kept pulling a rabbit out of the hat. I guess he was completely lucky and his true idiocy has finally got the better of him this year. Give me a break. 2 teams are trying to win these games. Their players pulled it out.

 

So Ozzie pulled a rabbit out of his hat last year, but the Twins players won the game tonight? I know Ozzie gets too much of the blame on here, but tonight was as bad as I've ever seen.

[Wealz]

Riske is a horrible pitcher in close situations. Cotts shouldn't be in unless it's mop-up duty right now.

 

First off, where do you get your information that Riske is horrible in "close situations"? Second it was the 6th inning.

[fathom]

First off, where do you get your information that Riske is horrible in "close situations"? Second it was the 6th inning.

 

I'm trying to confirm the stat, but someone said he had no holds for the Indians last year. And with 10 outs to go in the game, that's a huge situation.

[gosox41]

Why are Riske and Cotts on the roster then? Riske has been solid, btw, and you're acting like he's Cliff Pollitte.

 

 

I think Ozzie messed this up huge. This is a pennant race against the team taht was right behind you. When you have the meat of their order up (including one guy who always seems to screw the Sox) you don't throw your 2 worst relievers in the bullpen out there. While you do't user Jenks that early, you've got to put in your #2 or 3 bullpen guy--McDougal or Thornton.

 

Let's assume one of those guys in and did their job. Now you have a 3 run lead going into the bottom of the 6th. Sure the Twins big guys are coming up, but who says the Sox can't score more runs.

 

All I know if me and the guy next to me placed a bet when Riske came in. It wasn't on if Hunter would hit a HR, but rather where it would go. The closest location one. I called the Comcast Sports sign in LF and lost.

 

It's sad that we were betting this but me and this guy both had a gut feeling. I don't normally bet make bets like where a home run goes let alone betting against the Sox on whether one would be hit or not.

 

 

 

Bob

[dagotony06]

Minnesota's bullpen pitched 7 innings and gave up 1 run

[Wealz]

I'm trying to confirm the stat, but someone said he had no holds for the Indians last year. And with 10 outs to go in the game, that's a huge situation.

 

Again, if Riske can't be trusted to get an out in the 6th inning, he should not be on the roster. Your problem is with Kenny Williams.

[gosox41]

So Ozzie pulled a rabbit out of his hat last year, but the Twins players won the game tonight? I know Ozzie gets too much of the blame on here, but tonight was as bad as I've ever seen.

 

 

The blame, IMHO goes like this:

1. Javier 'I have psychological issues about the number 6' Vazquez who for some reason can't pitch through the 6th whether he's thrown just over 70 pitches (tonight) or 95. Stop sucking so bad.

2. Guillen-For using his 2 worst pitchers.

3. Cotts-He's been ice cold lately. Is he planning on getting someone out soon?

4. Riske-terrible first pitch.

 

 

Bob

[fathom]

Again, if Riske can't be trusted to get an out in the 6th inning, he should not be on the roster. Your problem is with Kenny Williams.

 

KW did as good a job as he possibly could with this bullpen AFTER what we started off with. It's not his fault that Ozzie keeps using Cotts in close games. FWIW, I have a much bigger issue with bringing Cotts in than I did Riske.

[dagotony06]

WHERE IS BMAC? How come know one asks that question to Ozzie?

[Dick Allen]

I haven't read the thread but how about some blame for Joey Cora. Getting a guy thrown out at home with less than 2 out is inexcusable.

[fathom]

I haven't read the thread but how about some blame for Joey Cora. Getting a guy thrown out at home with less than 2 out is inexcusable.

 

As I said in other threads, you could feel the entire momentum of the game shift then.

[Dick Allen]

I'm trying to confirm the stat, but someone said he had no holds for the Indians last year. And with 10 outs to go in the game, that's a huge situation.

He had exactly 0 holds for the Indians last year. They couldn't wait to get rid of him. He's not horrible, but not a guy you should be comfortable putting on the mound when a game is on the line.

 

As I said in other threads, you could feel the entire momentum of the game shift then.

This White Sox team has had more guys thrown out at the plate than any I can remember. Aggressiveness is good, stupidity is not. A majority of the plays at the plate haven't even been close.

[shoota]

Again, if Riske can't be trusted to get an out in the 6th inning, he should not be on the roster. Your problem is with Kenny Williams.

 

That's a losing philosophy, and I'll teach you why. In a game as important and winnable as tonight's game was, a manager must use his best pitchers first, because it allows his team the best odds at winning that game.

 

No one is saying Riske should never be expected to record outs in the 6th, just that he should not have entered tonight's game before McCarthy, Thornton, MacDougal and Jenks have.

[ottawa_sox]

Then where was McCarthy or MacDougal to face Hunter? Bringing in Riske is inexcuseable, as is bringing in Cotts. Cotts can't get ANYBODY out right now.

 

It was the 6th. If Riske is no good and Cotts is no good, then our manager is at a distinct disadvantage. He still has the 3 innings to go and several more games in a 24 days in a row stretch. And 'our second closer' MacDougal gave up 3 hits in one inning. The fatal hit was came on the second pitch to the batter and got too much of the plate. Some call that 'giving in'. Whatever ... the location was not all that good. Cotts and Riske were asked to get an out and they didn't. This was not asking too much of them. It pains me to tip my hat to the Twins, but they deserve it. If Riske and/or Cotts get through the 6th, the Sox have their vaunted best 3 relievers to go 3, preserve the win and be ready the next day. If the Twins extend the game, we still have BMac for the potential long stretch of extra innings. Again ..... whatever Ozzie does, he will be vilified here if the Sox lose ..... regardless of the logic at the time. Imagine the hands being thrown up in the air if by the end Jenks was in there for 4 outs and did not close the deal in the 9th (see too many previous game posts to list).

[Wealz]

That's a losing philosophy, and I'll teach you why. In a game as important and winnable as tonight's game was, a manager must use his best pitchers first, because it allows his team the best odds at winning that game.

 

No one is saying Riske should never be expected to record outs in the 6th, just that he should not have entered tonight's game before McCarthy, Thornton, MacDougal and Jenks have.

 

Riske has been more effective than McCarthy. Maybe he should have brought Jenks in to face Hunter in the 6th, huh?

 

He had exactly 0 holds for the Indians last year. They couldn't wait to get rid of him. He's not horrible, but not a guy you should be comfortable putting on the mound when a game is on the line.

 

A game is never "on the line" in the 6th inning.

[whitesoxfan101]

Mack is in CF tonight against Johan. This might be more egregious an offense than anything last night.

Edited August 26, 2006 by whitesoxfan101

[fathom]

A game is never "on the line" in the 6th inning.

 

Says? I don't see how the last out in the 6th inning, with 2 guys on in a 2 run game, is less important than the first out of the 7th inning to start that inning off.

Edited August 26, 2006 by fathom